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Old 04-22-2013, 02:28 PM   #61
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Well said !!!!!
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Old 04-22-2013, 02:46 PM   #62
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Remember Al Gore was the god f global warming at one time. What happened to that? Time will tell on this subject, I hope no one gets killed because of someone's towing beliefs. Jim
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Old 04-22-2013, 02:59 PM   #63
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Interruptions.....

I can't believe you said that....

Is not this you?
"2012 Ram Express 4x4 Hemi 5.7 Reg cab 120" wheelbase"

I like my glass house fine.

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Old 04-22-2013, 03:26 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS View Post
Interruptions.....

I can't believe you said that....

Is not this you?
"2012 Ram Express 4x4 Hemi 5.7 Reg cab 120" wheelbase"

I like my glass house fine.

Bob
Yes me Bob, and I've been warned on this forum my 1/2 ton short wheelbase truck is dangerously light duty for the trailer. I tried to match the truck to the trailer as best I could and still have a nice daily driver, and added a Propride hitch for nicer towing.

But the thread is about a Honda Odyssey.

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Old 04-22-2013, 03:34 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS View Post
Steve,

A question back to you...

Are there any weight tickets proving that a loaded for camping Odyssey, say towing a 25' AS is not exceeding the factory stated ratings?

From published Odyssey specs.

Max Trailer Weight
3500lbs.(TV Empty with one 150lb driver)

2,833 lbs. front GAWR
Front Gross Axle Weight Rating

3,197 lbs. rear GAWR
Rear Gross Axle Weight Rating

5,952 lbs. GVWR
Gross Vehicle Weight Rating *

I know from tickets that with the WD set our 25'r adds 1080lbs to the rear axle.

Bob
I've not seen any Bob. I can only assume from the numbers of Odyssey vans Andy has set up that they're not going to be stressing the measurable ratings at all. I weighed my Sienna hitched up to my 28' International when I first took delivery; just the axle weights and I wasn't properly loaded, and I came in comfortably under. I've subsequently lost the ticket but I'm going to weigh again when we head out in May, complete with kids and dog, and see what the grizzly truth is.
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Old 04-22-2013, 03:48 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by dkottum View Post

But the thread is about a Honda Odyssey.

doug k

Is it really or is about the infallibility of whatever the posting member sez.

I KNOW I'm not exceeding the stated rate limits of my TV. I have the necessary weight tickets and specs in hand.

Show me...


Bob
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Old 04-22-2013, 05:27 PM   #67
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I know from tickets that with the WD set our 25'r adds 1080lbs to the rear axle.
Hi Bob
I know you are worried about the load on a Odyssey but I am actually more concerned about you. If your adding 1080 to your rear axle when you connect then your weight distribution is not even close to adequate. Depending on the tow vehicle you should not be adding any more than 500-600 pounds to the rear axle with your 25. It could be your weight distribution system is fine but your hitch receiver is twisting. What is your tow vehicle and what brand and rating weight distribution system are you using?
I weigh combinations quite regularly but most often fifth wheels, that is where the biggest problems are. Front drive vans have quite a lot of load capacity and since we can put a very nice hitch on them they transfer weight to the front wheels very effectively. Any I have weighed have been well under the axle ratings.
We have a several customers who are Lawyers, Police officers, a judge, insurance brokers and insurance company executives all who tow with our combinations. Also the retired head of vehicle compliance for the Ministry of Transportation tows a 29 with an Odyssey.
If you tow with an Odyssey instead of an Excursion you will feel the Airstream more, the Odyssey is a pretty communicative vehicle. If you need to make an emergency maneuver to avoid and accident or make a fast stop the Odyssey will accomplish either or both of those in much less distance than an Excursion. In fact with an Odyssey and 25 I think I could do a lane change or slalom faster than the Excursion solo. If the Excursion had low center of gravity, independent suspension, stickier tires and more precise steering it would better. You see having lots of size and weight suspended way above the road on a narrow suspension stance does not make a great handling stopping vehicle, hooking a trailer to it does not tend to make it better. Psychologically yes with performance testing not really.
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Old 04-22-2013, 05:46 PM   #68
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Question I'm not worried...

And your weight tickets are where?

Please don't assume.

Bob
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Old 04-22-2013, 06:19 PM   #69
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As of 2013, domestic vehicles now use SAE J2807 to establish standard towing capacity ratings so it is no longer just randomly assigned by the manufacturer. It seems foreign manufacturers may have been using this standard since 2010.

Quote:
When asked about towing liability issues, Dean Holleman, Vice President and Managing Attorney of Boyce Holleman & Associates (www.boyceholleman.com) in Gulfport, Mississippi, says “Any person who tows a trailer would be responsible to know that the towing vehicle has certain limitations which should not be exceeded.
If the accident is caused by the vehicle being used to tow something it was not designed to tow, this in itself could be an act negligence by the tow [vehicle] driver and under the theory of negligence he could be liable (and most probably would be held liable).
Holleman says that while some vehicle owners may argue the tow ratings and the proper setup of their vehicle isn’t clearly noted, he feels “most vehicles do have proper warnings and posting of limitations of towing weight.”
When it comes to negligence, or the failure of the driver’s “duty to tow only that which the vehicle is designed to tow,” Holleman and other attorneys agree if there’s an accident and the towing vehicle isn’t properly set up, the injured person would probably win any ensuing lawsuit.
from :
TRAILER TOWING ILLEGALLY

Yes, we couldn't all walk around worried about being sued all the time. But there are laws in place to ensure we don't act in a negligent manner. We are not talking about "lets never tow a trailer because we could injure someone and be sued".

We are talking about "Let's tow responsibly to make sure we don't put other people on the road at risk for our own stupid decisions".

Quote:
Towing beyond any vehicle's manufacturer's weight ratings-or without regard to the properly-equipped limitations a vehicle's manufacturer places on the towing vehicle-relates directly to the "Law of Negligence", and places you, the driver, bearing the full weight of liability issues.
"A plaintiff who was injured as a result of some negligent conduct on the part of a defendant is entitled to recover compensation for such injury from that defendant," quotes Richard Alexander, a major injury trial attorney in San Jose, California.
"One test that is helpful in determining whether or not a person was negligent is to ask and answer the question whether or not, if a person of ordinary prudence had been in the same situation and possessed of the same knowledge, he or she would have foreseen or anticipated that someone might have been injured by or as a result of his or her action or inaction.

"If the answer to that question is 'yes,' and if the action or inaction reasonably could have been avoided, then not to avoid it would be negligence," warns Alexander. (For more about this subject go to www.alexanderinjury.com.)
see Towing The LIne
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Old 04-23-2013, 11:28 AM   #70
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and one last item just for fun - let's survey the lawyers : Liability for towing higher than manufacturer recommended limit with personal vehicle - Avvo.com

" If I tow a 7,000 lb trailer with a minivan rated to tow 3,500 lbs, and someone was injured in an accident, could i be held personally liable? Could my insurance get out of paying? What about the RV dealer who suggested it and set it up for us, with a weight distribution system? "


Quote:
Of course you can be held personally liable for accidents you cause (whether or not you are towing anything at all). You are just setting yourself up for much larger potential judgments, criminal charges, etc. To be blunt, what you suggest is dangerous and stupid, and you won't get out of liability or charges by blaming it on the dealer. You are the one making the final decision.
Quote:
The injured party would have to show that the fact that you had towed a trailer higher than the rated capacity of your vehicle was the proximate cause of the injuries. It is more likely there would be some other reason that would be easier to prove that you were at fault for causing the accident such as speeding or running a red light or stop sign or some other reason. One thing that towing a vehicle could cause is significantly longer stopping distances which could contribute to causing the accident. I agree with my colleagues that you will have a very hard time implicating the RV dealer as being at fault. It is your responsibility to operate your vehicle in a safe manner and it was your decision to have the towing system installed.
Quote:
Of course. Plus you will screw up your minivan which will cost you thousands more. Cars or trucks with towing packages have an extra fan and special cooling system. The RV dealer is just trying to make a sale. the weight distribution only helps with stopping. It won't stop your car from overheating and ruining it, not to mention, your concern, about hitting someone. Also, don't forget, if you have family with you, are you willing to put their safety at risk ???????
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:19 PM   #71
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Very well said. I'm glad I'm not the only one trying to shed some light on the potential problems.
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Old 04-24-2013, 05:33 AM   #72
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I would think that truck would do an excellent job. That is one of my choices for a camper puller. Here in the Deep South we drive pickups as daily drivers anyway. Pickups and SUVs outnumber cars and vans here.
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Old 04-24-2013, 06:39 AM   #73
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"As of 2013, domestic vehicles now use SAE J2807 to establish standard towing capacity ratings so it is no longer just randomly assigned by the manufacturer. It seems foreign manufacturers may have been using this standard since 2010."

No they don't.......maybe in 2014 for Ford and GM. There's a bit of a marketing strategy war going on. It is voluntary and up to the mfr when and if they do it.
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Old 04-24-2013, 08:16 AM   #74
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It seems so very rude to me to have a technical or towing question answered with a series of worthless legal opinions. This stuff is all over the internet and provides nothing of value, except perhaps free advertising to some lawyer.

Folks have been challenged here and elsewhere to provide actual incidents of this actually happening to a person towing his personal RV, and the legal beagle cannot do it because there is nothing to it.

Sorry to dwell on this, but the thread was hopelessly and worthlessly hijacked pages ago. And yes I too am guilty of "the kettle calling the pot black".

doug k
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Old 04-24-2013, 09:57 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by m.hony View Post
I would think that truck would do an excellent job. That is one of my choices for a camper puller. Here in the Deep South we drive pickups as daily drivers anyway. Pickups and SUVs outnumber cars and vans here.
It's pretty much the same here in the Florida Panhandle. Pick-up trucks are the most common vehicle, and when someone wants to get a little fancy, they get an SUV.

As to the issue of our litigious society, I had a recent experience that surprised me at how far things have gone. My oldest son recently purchased a 2004 3/4 ton Chevrolet Suburban from one of his brothers. This Suburban was formerly mine. I had sold it to my son in Tampa a couple of years ago. I had used this vehicle to tow the Airstream. I had replaced the OEM LT245 tires with LT265's several sets of tires ago.

When my son in Atlanta recently went to Costco to get a new set of tires for the Suburban, they refused to mount replacement LT265 tires. He was told that they were allowed only to mount tires that were originally specified for that vehicle which were LT245's. My son spoke to the store manager. He was told that this was Costco policy because of liability considerations. I am thinking that if Costco has done this that the other National chains can't be far behind. I had had those LT265's installed at Sam's Club several years ago.

I guess the lawyers have taken over. Now we are told what size tires our vehicles can have because of liability issues. In the future, if we want a different size tire, we may have to buy the tires on the black market and have them mounted at a chop shop on a remote side street in a big city under cover of darkness.

The guys who jack up the pick-ups and the minivaners who want a lower profile tires are just gonna love this!

If tire size is a civil liability issue, I can't help but think that carrying or towing an oversize load will be litigated in some manner in the not too distant future.

In 1623, when William Shakespeare wrote Henry, The Sixth, his famous quote about the lawyer problem is as valid today as it apparently was almost 400 years ago.

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Old 04-24-2013, 10:15 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by dkottum View Post
It seems so very rude to me to have a technical or towing question answered with a series of worthless legal opinions. This stuff is all over the internet and provides nothing of value, except perhaps free advertising to some lawyer.

Folks have been challenged here and elsewhere to provide actual incidents of this actually happening to a person towing his personal RV, and the legal beagle cannot do it because there is nothing to it.

Sorry to dwell on this, but the thread was hopelessly and worthlessly hijacked pages ago. And yes I too am guilty of "the kettle calling the pot black".

doug k
Couldn't agree more. In fact, I would go so far as to call it trolling.
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Old 04-24-2013, 10:29 AM   #77
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Couldn't agree more. In fact, I would go so far as to call it trolling.
Without a doubt.
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Old 04-24-2013, 11:24 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moosetags View Post
When my son in Atlanta recently went to Costco to get a new set of tires for the Suburban, they refused to mount replacement LT265 tires. He was told that they were allowed only to mount tires that were originally specified for that vehicle which were LT245's. My son spoke to the store manager. He was told that this was Costco policy because of liability considerations. I am thinking that if Costco has done this that the other National chains can't be far behind. I had had those LT265's installed at Sam's Club several years ago.

Brian
brian, it gets even worse! some 6 years ago costco insisted on the position of the single tire i needed to replace. i forget if it was only to go on the front or rear. the best match wear wise was a tire on the other axle.
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Old 04-24-2013, 11:51 AM   #79
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i did not mean to be inflammatory at all. i am usually neutral on most subjects, but i work with lawyers all day and do legal writing as part of my job. I don't have access to a lexis Nexis account otherwise i would be happy to cite case law for you.

Quote:
"worthless legal opinions"
I'm going to have to say this is your opinion. Generally, lawyers bill upwards of $250/hr. So there is actually some value to having an actual lawyer(s) opine on the subject.

someone is asking for our (the forums') help making a decision that (at least one of us) sees as having potential dangerous consequences.

So if you can support the opinion of an expert FOR towing with a Honda Odyssey, Why can't you hear arguments AGAINST?

Again, "trolling" is not my intent. INFORMING is my intent. I'll butt out now.
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Old 04-24-2013, 02:53 PM   #80
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i did not mean to be inflammatory at all. i am usually neutral on most subjects, but i work with lawyers all day and do legal writing as part of my job. I don't have access to a lexis Nexis account otherwise i would be happy to cite case law for you.

I'm going to have to say this is your opinion. Generally, lawyers bill upwards of $250/hr. So there is actually some value to having an actual lawyer(s) opine on the subject.

someone is asking for our (the forums') help making a decision that (at least one of us) sees as having potential dangerous consequences.

So if you can support the opinion of an expert FOR towing with a Honda Odyssey, Why can't you hear arguments AGAINST?

Again, "trolling" is not my intent. INFORMING is my intent. I'll butt out now.
I think having opinions expressed from both sides of the discussion is a healthy exercise. I do not consider your posts to be the posts of a troll. I am not an expert and have made errors in the past because I only exposed myself to one side of a discussion. People make decisions based on information they gather from the various threads on this forum. I believe more information results in a better decision. Just my 2 cents.
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