Ford F150 + Airstream 27FB Desk

[jcl]

Originally Posted by richard5933

The numbers on the sticker may not represent the upper safe limit. Or they might. We don't know.

Same could be said for the GAWR - we don't know if there is capacity to spare in those numbers either.

Even if all those numbers don't represent a safe upper limit, we do know that the manufacturer has determined that the numbers on the sticker do represent a safe number. At least, that is, safe enough for them to put it on a sticker and assume some liability for it.

I'll ask the same number again...if we're not going to accept the numbers on the sticker as reliable, then what numbers can we use?

The answer can't just be GAWR as that leave out the whole rest of the vehicle from the equation. I know you don't like to figure the whole vehicle, but it's attached to those axles and does play a part in this.

My point in all this? Unless you've got some reliable & credentialed reference material or empirical testing to show numbers better than the manufacturer's it's all an educated guessing game if people choose to exceed them.

If you are referring to tow rating, then I agree, they may represent a safe upper limit or they may not.

If one exceeds the GAWR, then one is eating into the safety margin that the design engineers included. Sure, it may be possible, but I choose not to do that unless it is under very different conditions, eg very low speed, a rare occurrence, etc. Not in normal towing operation. I towed a trailer far over my rated towing capacity, but it was a parade float, and the very low speeds and limited distance involved meant I was fine with it. I wouldn't tow the same trailer on the highway.

When the manufacturer publishes a tow rating, it is for a specific set of assumptions and test conditions. If you want to use it as a maximum upper limit, then you are taking on the responsibility for towing under the same conditions as the manufacturer used. Most of us tow outside those conditions and parameters, with one good example being travel speed. Outside of the test parameters, the rating has less significance. It isn't wrong, it just isn't as relevant. The SAE tow rating has the trailer brakes disconnected. If you have functioning trailer brakes (a good idea) how do you modify the tow rating? Do you increase it, or just put having trailer brakes down to not having an impact.

GAWR does not leave out the rest of the vehicle. It considers all the systems involved in handling a vertical load, from the chassis to the suspension to the tires. It is a system limit for vertical loads, and it only refers to the axles because that is where the vertical load is measured, one axle at a time. It is not a rating of just the axle component, that is an error in interpretation.

I have relied on my own testing. How the combination feels, how it responds, evasive maneuver handling, emergency braking, etc. That doesn't change any manufacturer rating, and I am not conducting rating tests to try and mimic the manufacturer's rating. I am testing my specific combination, something the manufacturer can't do because they don't know what it is. I think that relying on a non specific rating has errors, just as my own testing has gaps in instrumentation, etc. But we do the best we can. There isn't a convenient answer for the ultimate capability of any combination, using spreadsheets.

[PhilouCerise]

Alright then, you lost me. My English is not at the level of your high level technical discussions. Sorry.

Report of the day.

We went to see an airstream for the first time in real life. It was a used version from 2018 in 30 feet.

What can I say, it's brilliant, magnificent, exceptional, quality. I'm running out of words... Know that a Frenchman rarely uses this kind of adjectives but this is fabulous.

What to say negative. Not much... The only thing that disappointed us was the sofa in the middle. A bit dark perhaps. For this reason we decided to confirm our choice on a 27 footer with the sofa at the back for the view and the famous and fabulous rear door of the versions from 2021. The 25FB is eliminated because my wife does not want no queen bed across and I refuse to sleep on a single or on the dinette bed. So lazy to move everyday the table

After that we went to our Ford dealer who assured us that the F150 upgraded was sufficient on the 25´ and 27´ but as Gypsydad noted the seller didn't really know more than me about towing and maybe his last job last year was fishmonger.

Brief summary and for the moment we are looking for an 27FB with desk, rear door and possibly a bunk bed in front. Everything used because new is overpriced and a new one for the Ford F150 with all the options to have at least 3000 of payload. You should know that we are only two and quite minimal. For me in summer it's 1 bathing suit and a pair of flip flops and in winter I add the tee-shorts. For Madame it's the same but in winter it's big down jacket. We need just our colman grill because the good food is the most important !!!

In short, we still have 2 years to find this damn used 27FBQ Desk, Rear Door and Bunk Bed

Thanks again for all comments

[richard5933]

Sounds like the beginning of a plan is coming together - great news.

Love the branding on your images.

[GettinAway]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

If you had "towed" your 25' on that trip instead of being on a bike, perhaps you would understand the difference we speak of. Yes, plenty folks here argue that point. But, many others of us who have "been there;done that" can share the difference is night and day. Sure the 1/2T can tow...and the Tundra is a nice vehicle.. But if you are into travel in the NW states using highways with 60-70 mph traffic towing a 25'+ size AS, you clearly want to be able to handle the trip with enough stability, power, control, and braking for a safe trip in any situation. Again, if you have not towed with the 3/4-1T TV vs the 1/2T up/down/around in mountains like the Rockies at highway speeds, you will never know what you just said... mike drop...again.

I’ve been over so many passes in CO, WY, MT, UT, NM with our 25GT and Tundra I can’t count them all. Second gear on the way down. It’s easy. It’s also about 2% of the total trip. Like I mentioned earlier, I think this argument has resolved itself, half tons are “safely” pulling larger AS trailers all the time, all over the US. We can rehash this forever, the proof is on the road. Yes, I modified my Tundra to make it more capable, and it is. I also agree a 3/4 ton diesel would make towing easier. It’s just the trade off (for me) is way too much. Too little benefit for too little gain.

[WellSaid11]

Originally Posted by GettinAway

We can rehash this forever, the proof is on the road.

Yes, a 1/2T or SUV can “safely” tow these trailers. However, the argument you make that because you “saw” more 1/2 tons or SUVs towing an AS is somehow “proof” that it is “safe” or “better” is a stretch.

What you saw on the road was more likely simple economics at play. Fuel, maintenance, licensing, garage size, insurance and initial purchase price for the most part. This is the primary reason most will ultimately not purchase a 3/4 or 1T to tow their larger AS or TT whether they say it or not.

This is the exact same reason you see far, far more SOB trailers than AS trailers on the road. Simple economics. Instead of the “just as safe” or “just as good” card, here the SOB owners often state “You AS people are in a cult.” No matter the legitimacy of the card being played, it is still likely about economics.

Very few people are going to come out and state “I know a 3/4 or 1T is the right (or the “better” or “safer”) rig for my AS/TT but I just can’t swing it.” Of course, that’s fine and that’s reality. If you just spent $50k to $225k on an AS, that’s a lot of cash, and that’s economic reality as well when added to the price of a TV.

Instead of what’s above, you will then often hear the stated secondary “reasons” as to why people don’t purchase a 3/4 or 1T to tow “safely” such as:

“my wife hates it”

“too big to park”

“reinforced my receiver and added a brake controller: i’m good for a 5th wheel now”

“i’m 3’8” & can’t reach the gas cap”

“the ride is too rough”

“my ProPride/Hensley install and setup turned my 1/2T or SUV into a 3/4T”

“diesel fuel is yucky”

“too powerful, too much torque”

“black smoke ruins the air”

“neighbor doesn’t like the noise”

“my ‘79 F-150 with the 5th engine & 3rd frame off rebuild tows strong”

“didn’t come in forest emerald crystal speckled moonstone green”

“my 1/2T or SUV pulls great even with bottomed out suspension, cooked brakes, uphill at 20 mph at full throttle……”

Now I know lots of people are going to come on here and say “I make $750k per year, am liquid for $5M in 2 hours after taxes and can buy 10x 1T trucks right now but my F-150 XLT tows just as safely as any 1T and the cloth seats aren’t nearly as hot” but that’s by far the minority and they know it and so do we all.

I have pulled for years with a 1/2T and 3 SUVs (2 euro whips and a Yukon XL) and they did ok for the most part and they were “safe.” All 3 SUVs cost initially just as much or more than many 3/4T rigs as well. But like others have stated, I realized that a 3/4 or 1T would fit my needs towing our West far better and give a wider margin on all issues.

Ultimately your statement of “too little benefit for too little gain” (not really sure if that makes any sense?) is an equation of personal choice of course. I am certain many people can afford a 3/4T or 1T and choose not to buy it to tow, but that does not discount (no pun intended) why you still see so many more 1/2T or SUV rigs on the road. My guess is that if the 3/4T or 1T TV was free, 99% of AS’ers at 25’ and above would be towing with them.

That said, life really comes down to two things in the end: mathematics and love. This choice is 90% math and 10% love. How you allocate the “facts” within those percentages is up to you.

[Capt Bruce]

I used to pull a heavy 3 horse slant load horse trailer with a F250 with the 460 cu in engine. It was an absolute dog. I’d crawl up hills at 30 mph while getting 4 mpg. Now my wife and I each have a ram 2500 with Cummins diesels - we pull a 33 ft Airstream and a newer horse trailer. It’s all about the torque. Regardless of what payload you settle on get a diesel.

[gypsydad]

[QUOTE=PhilouCerise;2620316]
Brief summary and for the moment we are looking for an 27FB with desk, rear door and possibly a bunk bed in front. Everything used because new is overpriced and a new one for the Ford F150 with all the options to have at least 3000 of payload. You should know that we are only two and quite minimal. For me in summer it's 1 bathing suit and a pair of flip flops and in winter I add the tee-shorts. For Madame it's the same but in winter it's big down jacket. We need just our colman grill because the good food is the most important !!!

In short, we still have 2 years to find this damn used 27FBQ Desk, Rear Door and Bunk Bed


Well, your at least getting advise here, from many folks with "experience" owning/towing an Airstream to help you....(and from at least one poster who has none with Airstream!) Given your time frame of 2 years, and the unique features you listed (desk, bunk bed- in a 27') I would suggest getting one that is "slightly used"; also that you consider at both the 27' and the 28'; contact Ultimate Airstreams in Oregon, prior, and discuss your goals. They do great work modifying...I have seen brand new GT models taken apart and reconfigured with desks, lounges, bunk beds, even washer/dryer from these guys. Finding something as you describe is going to be almost impossible...so look at the option of saving money with an older AS and investing in the modifications you desire. Good information for you to ponder going forward..

https://www.ultimateairstreams.com/

[PhilouCerise]

Originally Posted by WellSaid11

....

I agree with you but when you said "In a cult", who is the Guru?

I rather think that SOB trailers are the Windows Guys and AS Trailers are the Apple Guys. Neither is better than the other there are pros and cons on both sides.

⚠️ Warning, this post is not a discussion on this subject! An please, no need to throw apples out the window

My Cerise (Cherry) will be happy to join the Apple and to bite into it!

[mkcurtiss]

It will be much less stressful to tow with a heavier duty vehicle……..the biggest difference is the weight of the tow vehicle, the capabilities of the suspension and tires, and its overall capabilities to tow heavy loads.

Here is an illustration: i have a 1992 Jeep Cherokee. It is rated to tow 5000 lbs.
i have a 1968 Airstream Overlander International, that weighs 5000lb.

Now, do you think it would be wise to tow my camper with my jeep?

Just because it has a rating, means very little. It would be crazy to tow my camper with my jeep……it is far too lightweight, the brakes are not big enough, there is not enough horsepower, the suspension would be overloaded as would the tires, etc…….in addition, the wheelbase is much too short and too narrow……
The same principles apply to the f150.

[WellSaid11]

Originally Posted by richard5933

I'll ask the same number again...if we're not going to accept the numbers on the sticker as reliable, then what numbers can we use?

The answer can't just be GAWR as that leave out the whole rest of the vehicle from the equation. I know you don't like to figure the whole vehicle, but it's attached to those axles and does play a part in this.

no hard answers here as to capacity for payload (not towing cap). i think you would find that the “pro pullers” on the aforesaid forums will tell you that if your axles are 12k total @ 6k each, that going over the 10k GVWR to 11k for example would likely work.

I have a friend who is a heavy diesel mechanic and he builds trailers of all types for all types of uses. this is from the frame up, and mostly commercial applications all across the board. he tows a dozen different trailers with a 1T F-350 and 3/4T F-250. he laughed at my 10k GVWR capacity. he also said that many commercial trailer manufacturers will give you an updated GVWR sticker upon request beyond what it comes with stock.

why? Because the trailer is sold with a certain sticker to meet what JCL was talking about regarding the need for a DOT number, commercial drivers license and other issues, but it’s actual capacity is far greater. I have no doubt that these 3/4T and 1T trucks are actually rated higher than what the sticker shows. in California, my truck is listed as “commercial“ on my registration.

what i can tell you is that the 10k number appears to be mostly a function of regs and not capacity. in the end, why would a manufacturer put axles rated at 12k + and tires rated at 14k + on a truck that can’t safely load more than 10k?

The price of the truck is already too high, so why make it higher with components that are superfluous?

Can’t answer your question, but I don’t need to because you already know the answer.

[rwood]

FWIW, and in deference to all previous posters, I've towed our 23' 2007 Safari back and forth and up and down the country over the last 6 years for at least 42,000 miles with 2 2.7L F-150s (with heaviest duty tow package available for a 2,7L). Most of those miles were off the interstate, and some were on somewhat hairy western county back roads.



No problem whatsoever



Watch your weight (ie CAT scales), and check Ford's Towing guides



Feel free to PM me with ?s


Bob

[GettinAway]

Originally Posted by WellSaid11

Yes, a 1/2T or SUV can “safely” tow these trailers.


Instead of what’s above, you will then often hear the stated secondary “reasons” as to why people don’t purchase a 3/4 or 1T to tow “safely” such as:

“my 1/2T or SUV pulls great even with bottomed out suspension, cooked brakes, uphill at 20 mph at full throttle……”.



I have pulled for years with a 1/2T and 3 SUVs (2 euro whips and a Yukon XL) and they did ok for the most part and they were “safe.”

That said, life really comes down to two things in the end: mathematics and love. This choice is 90% math and 10% love. How you allocate the “facts” within those percentages is up to you.

Your previous statements about safety make sense. They don’t sync up well to your last statement regarding mathematics and love. If it’s safe, it’s safe. Right ?

I’d suggest you take a look as you drive, at what vehicles are pulling ASs. It’s not about economics. I don’t have any dislike for big diesel pickups. I just have something that works very well. As do many many many other AS owners. There just is no reason to switch away from safe and reliable TVs.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

Purely as points of reference:

When I last had a 150/1500 size truck, the door sticker "payload" showed it at about 1400 pounds.

The F250 I bought in 2017 was as tricked out as you could get to increase payload. It had some options, but no sun roof or (heavy) diesel drive train. It had a short bed (6.5') but the large cab. The payload sticker on it showed about 2,900 pounds. Others have posted stickers on similar era F250's with payload stickers in the 1,600 pound range ( and more options on them).

The F350 I now have has a payload sticker that is around 4,200 pounds. It *does* have a big heavy diesel drivetrain, but still no sun roof. It also has an 8' bed. (so one *very* large truck ....).

All of these trucks have / had the "FX4" 4x4 package on them or something similar. In no case could the dealer predict correctly what the payload sticker would actually read. In most cases their guess was high. On the most recent truck, it was low.

I always recommend folks spend a significant amount of time in a number of different floor plans before making any decisions. We headed out looking for "maybe" a 25'. After spending many hours in many examples, we have what we have. No regrets. No two people have the same impression of this or that so *you* need to go try each one.

Bob

[WellSaid11]

Originally Posted by GettinAway

Your previous statements about safety make sense. They don’t sync up well to your last statement regarding mathematics and love. If it’s safe, it’s safe. Right ?

No, not really. You are clearly talking about “safe enough” as opposed to “more safe.” If you have paid the upcharge for a vehicle that is more solid on the road when it comes to towing capacity, wheelbase, frame, available torque, etc. that makes you more safe, then you have done the math on the costs as to the overall economics, ROI and level of comfort in sketchy situations, grade and size of trailer towed. That decision is based upon math, and maybe how much you love to not have white knuckles and towing anxiety.

I also love to not worry about things that others may have to worry about when towing. I especially love having the available power on grade to speed up if needed in an emergency situation, or on an entrance ramp when someone doesn’t get over and not having to initiate a crazy braking or swerving maneuver. I also love coming down a grade with an exhaust brake and not thinking about my brake pad condition.

If you can swing that upcharge, but choose not to for situations such as those, you have also done the math as well. Not paying more and being “safe enough” is a mathematical decision just the same.

Originally Posted by GettinAway

I’d suggest you take a look as you drive, at what vehicles are pulling ASs. It’s not about economics. I don’t have any dislike for big diesel pickups. I just have something that works very well. As do many many many other AS owners. There just is no reason to switch away from safe and reliable TVs.

I see what other people tow with, and I am sure that their decision to tow with “safe and reliable” vehicles sits just fine with them. The thought that something that “works very well” is just good enough and works for you is great.

A great example for those that have little kids or grandkids would be car seats. You can spend far more money on a Nuna, Britax or Cybex seat with many more features for safety, materials and “performance” of the seat. Or you can spend far less on most models from Evenflo or Graco that are just “good enough” or “safe enough.” I guess it is all about your priorities, whether through math or love.

For me, I don’t fall victim to price anchoring, the contrast effect and the primacy effect. If it gives me more options, has better performance and capability, is safer and worth the price then I will likely consider buying it despite the marketing voodoo, or salespeople and others telling me what’s “good enough” or “safe enough.”

I did the math and I love having less worries.

[ckweaver]

Originally Posted by PhilouCerise

Hello,

Sorry for the inconvenience but we are rooky and new comer in RV towing and we have a question. I think it's a sensitive issue.

We would like to buy a Airstream 27FB Desk but a lot of people say to me "You need a F250 minimum to tow your futur Airstream. The dealer said F350 !!!

When I read your posts it seems it's possible...

The Ford F150 2.7L EcoBoost V6 : 10100 lbs
or
The Ford F150 3.5L EcoBoost V6 : 14000 lbs
And
The Airstream 27FB Desk : 7600 lbs

If we respect the GVWR why wouldn't it work ?

Maybe this GVWR it's for a flat ground towing.

Thanks for your insights.

Philippe and Cerise 🍒

I currently tow a 30’ globetrotter with a 2022 F150 eco boost 3.7l and have no issues. Trim level is irrelevant just that you have the max tow package which includes transmission and oil coolers. I also use a Hensley hitch which eliminates sway. I was towing a 27’ Flying Cloud with my 2019 F150 3.7l eco boost with the same success. I have owned and towed with F250 diesels and GMC 2500 duramax. They tow great also but personally prefer my 150 as my daily driver and tow vehicle. The newer ford 10 speed transmission is a close match to the Allison transmission in the duramax. I get 8-9 mpg towing 70. Diesel my have better fuel performance but not sure.

[ckweaver]

Sorry. 3.5l eco

[jeffmc306]

ckweaver, have you run your setup over the CAT scales to see where your axle weights are? We had a RAM 1500 with 4100 lbs. axle ratings and our 27’ Globetrotter was 100 lbs. over the max when weighed. The truck towed the trailer fine, just like yours.

We swapped it for a 2500 that has 2941 lbs. of payload and 6340 lbs. rear axles. Just got back from a 3000 mile trip to Maine and got 11.1 MPG avg. for the trip with a 6.4 gas / 8 speed.

Point is a larger truck can be as or more efficient than one with marginal payload. We also notice the truck is much more planted on the highway, weighing over 1000 lbs. more than the 1500.

To the OP, everyone has different experiences, it’s up to you to take it all in and weigh (pun intended) your options.

[GettinAway]

Originally Posted by WellSaid11

No, not really. You are clearly talking about “safe enough” as opposed to “more safe.”

I see what other people tow with, and I am sure that their decision to tow with “safe and reliable” vehicles sits just fine with them. The thought that something that “works very well” is just good enough and works for you is great.

Why not get an F450, wouldn’t that be even more safe?
FYI, I have no white knuckles. It’s not about economics. You’re making assumptions that aren’t there.

My brakes are not burning up, my suspension isn’t bottoming out, I’m not creeping up passes at 20 mph. Perhaps when you tried to pull a 25FB with a Tundra your hitch wasn’t set up properly. Hence your white knuckles and poor results.

[WellSaid11]

Originally Posted by GettinAway

Why not get an F450, wouldn’t that be even more safe?
FYI, I have no white knuckles. It’s not about economics. You’re making assumptions that aren’t there.

My brakes are not burning up, my suspension isn’t bottoming out, I’m not creeping up passes at 20 mph. Perhaps when you tried to pull a 25FB with a Tundra your hitch wasn’t set up properly. Hence your white knuckles and poor results.

I am extremely glad your Tundra is “good enough” and “safe enough” for you.

Enjoy!

[mefly2]

Originally Posted by WellSaid11

Yes, a 1/2T or SUV can “safely” tow these trailers. However, the argument you make that because you “saw” more 1/2 tons or SUVs towing an AS is somehow “proof” that it is “safe” or “better” is a stretch.

What you saw on the road was more likely simple economics at play. Fuel, maintenance, licensing, garage size, insurance and initial purchase price for the most part. This is the primary reason most will ultimately not purchase a 3/4 or 1T to tow their larger AS or TT whether they say it or not.

This is the exact same reason you see far, far more SOB trailers than AS trailers on the road. Simple economics. Instead of the “just as safe” or “just as good” card, here the SOB owners often state “You AS people are in a cult.” No matter the legitimacy of the card being played, it is still likely about economics.

Very few people are going to come out and state “I know a 3/4 or 1T is the right (or the “better” or “safer”) rig for my AS/TT but I just can’t swing it.” Of course, that’s fine and that’s reality. If you just spent $50k to $225k on an AS, that’s a lot of cash, and that’s economic reality as well when added to the price of a TV.

Instead of what’s above, you will then often hear the stated secondary “reasons” as to why people don’t purchase a 3/4 or 1T to tow “safely” such as:

“my wife hates it”

“too big to park”

“reinforced my receiver and added a brake controller: i’m good for a 5th wheel now”

“i’m 3’8” & can’t reach the gas cap”

“the ride is too rough”

“my ProPride/Hensley install and setup turned my 1/2T or SUV into a 3/4T”

“diesel fuel is yucky”

“too powerful, too much torque”

“black smoke ruins the air”

“neighbor doesn’t like the noise”

“my ‘79 F-150 with the 5th engine & 3rd frame off rebuild tows strong”

“didn’t come in forest emerald crystal speckled moonstone green”

“my 1/2T or SUV pulls great even with bottomed out suspension, cooked brakes, uphill at 20 mph at full throttle……”

Now I know lots of people are going to come on here and say “I make $750k per year, am liquid for $5M in 2 hours after taxes and can buy 10x 1T trucks right now but my F-150 XLT tows just as safely as any 1T and the cloth seats aren’t nearly as hot” but that’s by far the minority and they know it and so do we all.

I have pulled for years with a 1/2T and 3 SUVs (2 euro whips and a Yukon XL) and they did ok for the most part and they were “safe.” All 3 SUVs cost initially just as much or more than many 3/4T rigs as well. But like others have stated, I realized that a 3/4 or 1T would fit my needs towing our West far better and give a wider margin on all issues.

Ultimately your statement of “too little benefit for too little gain” (not really sure if that makes any sense?) is an equation of personal choice of course. I am certain many people can afford a 3/4T or 1T and choose not to buy it to tow, but that does not discount (no pun intended) why you still see so many more 1/2T or SUV rigs on the road. My guess is that if the 3/4T or 1T TV was free, 99% of AS’ers at 25’ and above would be towing with them.

That said, life really comes down to two things in the end: mathematics and love. This choice is 90% math and 10% love. How you allocate the “facts” within those percentages is up to you.

Well said, Well Said !