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crispyboy · 12-21-2016, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slowmover

The short answer is that a diesel with an EB isn't superior to a typical gas rig.

You really like poking a bear with a stick don't you........

featherbedder · 12-21-2016, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dznf0g

I don't think you're missing anything. EB would not be a good thing on very slippery surfaces. No, they don't apply the trailer brakes. There have been times (solo) in my business travels, when black ice was so bad (rain on top of very smooth ice) that I actually will shift into neutral anytime my foot comes off the throttle. I trust ABS, and Stabilitrac and my "smart" braking foot much more than the uncontrolled loss of drive wheel traction due to deceleration. This is especially true with rear drives and/or manual transmissions. Worst case for me was a drive from Peoria to the Quad Cities in a Trans Am w/stick. Think about that one for awhile.

I also shift in to neutral when on ice or slippery surfaces as this was learned many years ago when only manual trannys & mechanical brakes. Auto trannys or traction controls were not invented for general use. I have had dr. lic. for over 77 yrs. and have driven long before lic. having grown up on farm. In case that some one argues form of auto trans invented, ford model T was a form of auto as had to push pedal to go forward or back no shifting

Countryboy59 · 12-21-2016, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alluminati

So downshifting a diesel without EB will have little/no effect due to the lack of vacuum? Wow! Then I guess you'd need EB as a matter of survival any time you tow. I owned a diesel Jetta a few years ago, and have driven diesel busses for the church, so I know a little about diesel, but never was aware of this. ...Now I'm trying to remember when I ever needed to downshift the bus...

My Pruis will hold the speed down on a descent with the cruise control, but that's due to the principle of siphoning off excess inertia as a primary function of a hybrid. Kinda funny actually, since the engine noise rarely relates directly to speed. So you're cruising cross country, up hill and down. Then once in a great while, you're going down hill, paying it no attention, and the engine begins roaring because suddenly the generator that's sucking up all that inertia energy just can't keep up. But the Sequoia cruise will let the truck run downhill.

Sounds like at the end of the day, a diesel with EB is not better off than a gas engine with someone willing to downshift properly. Do I have this correct?

Do we need to have a class so all us gassers can learn how to descend hills safely?

Never had a problem up or downhill with any gas or diesel truck I've owned, towing or not. Never warped a rotor, lost the brakes, etc. Never. You don't have as much compression with a gas engine, you use the disc brakes and trailer brakes when going downhill. They're different vehicles. Neither is better or worse if your vehicle is sized for the job, you know how to drive and you know the limitations of age, reaction time etc. If you're warping rotors going downhill you're doing something wrong.

I don't know how fast all you guys are trying to go downhill but I cringe when I see some of these rigs doing 75 downhill. You folks just go ahead and use the passing lane, see ya down the road.

tjdonahoe · 12-22-2016, 03:54 AM

Very interesting post, having driven big trucks all my life, very few didn't have a Jake brake, I have never shifted into neutral when on black ice, let off a bit , brake off. Most all the trucks had a 3 stage , 2,4,or 6 cylinders holding you back, on snowpack roads it would on 2 or 4 depending if you were loaded or not...

dznf0g · 12-22-2016, 06:28 AM

But you also had 8 (I assume ) contact patches under your drive wheels....and how much weight on those friction surfaces.

tjdonahoe · 12-23-2016, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dznf0g

But you also had 8 (I assume ) contact patches under your drive wheels....and how much weight on those friction surfaces.

Empty 15,000 lbs on the drivers, 8 tires, not much weight per tire..

dznf0g · 12-23-2016, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjdonahoe

Empty 15,000 lbs on the drivers, 8 tires, not much weight per tire..

How much loaded?

featherbedder · 12-23-2016, 02:32 PM

When I started driving no jake brakes, computer controlled engines or trannys , no 16/18 speed gears etc. Putting in neutral I meant cars, pu, vans not 18 wheelers as AS owners don't generally drive big ones for pleasure. As a pro driver you no much more than most drivers of small veh. Plus exp. that is not taught in drivers ed.or driving schools. I attended 2 driving courses taught by retired cop and his teachings of big trucks way off. The courses was because of heavy right. foot. 3 tickets in 67 yrs. of lic. all just 5 over posted to fill Quotas.

tjdonahoe · 12-24-2016, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dznf0g

How much loaded?

Drivers-34,000 , drop axle 2 single tires -6000, steer wide tires-15000 lbs. the pup tongue on a pintal hitch didn't add much these 6 (3axle trailer) wide tires carried 43500 lbs... that is a perfect legal load for 7 axles...

sgschwend · 12-25-2016, 01:05 PM

This is a challenging subject because it depends on so many factors: tow vehicle, tow, tires, weather,and driver training. I just read all of this for the second day and it appears to me that you all have learned to tow and handle your equipment.

I found that yesterday the first north facing hill was all black ice and the next 10 miles were not much better. We were just discussion which road to use, when the ice was encounter. The exhaust brake was set on low.

The trailer started to swing as the truck lost traction. It was quicker to shift into neutral and coast a bit to straighten the rigs. Then switched the EB off and all was good the rest of the 10 miles.

I joked, "well lets use the highway" more cars to heat the road up.

Moflash · 12-25-2016, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slowmover

The short answer is that a diesel with an EB isn't superior to a typical gas rig.

The trailer lash-up is in compression and this creates the most vulnerable condition the rig encounters as to NOT being able to deal with crosswinds.

The correct speed and gear plus readiness to manually activate trailer brakes AND instantly accelerate downhill are what matter. Thus, following distance.

Where did you come up with this?Lol

Please share with us your reference material for your quoted observation.

Sent from my iPhone using Airstream Forums

Vitaver · 12-26-2016, 08:06 AM

Hailing from Florida, I am far less experienced than everyone else in this conversation and I confess of having no training whatsoever. Done with full disclosure. When on ice, TV losing traction it appears to become a predicament that only luck can fix: gassing won't do, neutral appears to accept that all we can do is wait and hope. Should the trailer stil has traction, touching the brakes will most certainly make them skid too... What am I getting wrong? A possible solution maybe was to think ahead and place good chains in TV and perhaps snow socks on the trailer's tires? After traction is lost, the only option appears to be to regain it by steering into the slide and step on the gas just a touch. If TV has traction and trailer is skidding: speed up and (try) to slow down the trailer by applying brakes to it (if they have any traction left, of course). All of this with a still misterious (to me) use/not use of exhaust brakes. If this was not so important, I would chose to go to the movies in the mall instead, with plenty of popcorn.

Lumatic · 12-26-2016, 08:19 AM

I have a 2008 Diesel Ram 2500. I have been told by several people to always use the exhaust brake as it keeps the gunk from building up in the turbo.

tjdonahoe · 12-26-2016, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lumatic

I have a 2008 Diesel Ram 2500. I have been told by several people to always use the exhaust brake as it keeps the gunk from building up in the turbo.

I always leave mine on, and drive in town in 3-4 the gear to keep the engine warm and never been to the shop..

tjdonahoe · 12-26-2016, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vitaver

Hailing from Florida, I am far less experienced than everyone else in this conversation and I confess of having no training whatsoever. Done with full disclosure. When on ice, TV losing traction it appears to become a predicament that only luck can fix: gassing won't do, neutral appears to accept that all we can do is wait and hope. Should the trailer stil has traction, touching the brakes will most certainly make them skid too... What am I getting wrong? A possible solution maybe was to think ahead and place good chains in TV and perhaps snow socks on the trailer's tires? After traction is lost, the only option appears to be to regain it by steering into the slide and step on the gas just a touch. If TV has traction and trailer is skidding: speed up and (try) to slow down the trailer by applying brakes to it (if they have any traction left, of course). All of this with a still misterious (to me) use/not use of exhaust brakes. If this was not so important, I would chose to go to the movies in the mall instead, with plenty of popcorn.

why would you go to neutral, just let off the gas, if you go to four wheel drive , no worries, trailer isn't going to slide unless you lock up the brakes,,also with the hitch bars up tight you have less weight on drive axle resulting in lost traction...besides in bad weather you are better off to park it, it is more cost effective

sgschwend · 12-26-2016, 10:16 AM

It is not that you leave it in neutral. You can shift into neutral for a second or two to regain control, then put the trans back in drive.

The loss of traction is the issue, it occurs because the driver wanted to slow down. Four wheel drive is a different story too; sure it will distribute the engine torque, but what about the fact that the brakes in a pick-up are not equal between the front and back?

That is why I believe you need to know your equipment and works best for it. Certainly there are common ideas. In the north, ice is common; in my Idaho days it seem to be the norm, studded tires sets were common.

Alluminati · 12-26-2016, 10:58 AM

Another way to increase traction on ice, is to avoid driving when temps are above 15 F. Most slipperiness is gone when you get near 0 F. At -20, driving on ice is comparable to driving on a dirt road.

I wish I didn't know this, and one of my life's goals is to never be in a position to be able to test it again.

Vitaver · 12-26-2016, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjdonahoe

why would you go to neutral, just let off the gas, if you go to four wheel drive , no worries, trailer isn't going to slide unless you lock up the brakes,,also with the hitch bars up tight you have less weight on drive axle resulting in lost traction...besides in bad weather you are better off to park it, it is more cost effective

Good point and my point exactly, going to neutral on ice was suggested by others on this Forum and I don't follow that logic.

tjdonahoe · 12-27-2016, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alluminati

Another way to increase traction on ice, is to avoid driving when temps are above 15 F. Most slipperiness is gone when you get near 0 F. At -20, driving on ice is comparable to driving on a dirt road.

I wish I didn't know this, and one of my life's goals is to never be in a position to be able to test it again.

Not necessarily true, if it has been cold for several days ,26-32 is the critical temperature , watch the sun , below that it's good..you can watch the pile up's on the interstates, inattentive driving,following too close too fast and no experience...

slowmover · 12-27-2016, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moflash

Where did you come up with this?Lol

Please share with us your reference material for your quoted observation.

Sent from my iPhone using Airstream Forums

Plain old experience. Forty years plus with these rigs, and over twenty commercially.

Pay attention to the lash up problem. That's what matters.

An EB isn't a crutch. Don't use it as one.