DOWN THE RABBIT HOLE of weight calculations with my '18 Lincoln Navigator L

[swed02]

Hi, I'm new here. I feel like my goal of owning a 2021 25' FBQ Globetrotter is on the borderline of what I can handle. I see just as much info from people saying, "don't do it," as I see people saying, "I've done ____ for years and I'm loving it." Here are some numbers, and I'd love to get your input:

'18 Lincoln Navigator L (with tow package) = 7800 GAWR, 3625 front GAWR, 4380 rear GAWR (got from the sticker), 7900 max trailer weight, 15500 max GCWR (got from the manual, I know that one doesn't matter as much). With a TV base weight of 6089 (sticker), I subtract the weight of me, my wife, + my daughter (x = 7800 - 6089 - 470) and I am left with 1241 for "payload." Let's say weight distribution hitch is 100lbs. Then, I'm really left with 1141 for "payload."

25' FBQ Globetrotter = 7300 max. weight, 882 hitch weight. I have read plenty of times the actual hitch weight of a loaded 25' FBQ Globe TT will be more like 1100.

So here's the question, If I've got 1141 of payload to work with, it is reasonable to expect a weight distribution hitch to move enough weight to the front axel without overloading either the front or rear axel? I'd still like to carry gear in the back of the Navigator (the thing is huge), but I understand the weight issue is additive.

You guys all seem pretty level headed, so please let me know if I'm just playing with fire. I see plenty of suburbans or smaller SUVs pulling these airstreams, but am not super excited about F___ing up my wife's new (to her) Navigator. Thank you for any timely responses.

[mikeinca]

As your calculations show, with a 25' FBQ you are right at the payload limit for the Navigator without adding a single item of cargo. I know there will be people who will say that they towed in a similar situation "without a problem" but personally I prefer a margin of safety and wouldn't do it. I towed a 25' Flying Cloud with an F150 which had higher tow limits than your Navigator and on occasion the TT felt like too much for the TV. I now tow a 25' Globetrotter with a 3/4 ton and am much happier.

A 23' Airstream might be a better choice. Have you considered downsizing your plans, or do you figure a 23 footer would be too small for the 3 of you?

[rideair]

I'll go the slightly different way:

Go with a 1971, 1981 or 1991 Airstream 25' trailer, and shed the weight, over the years, Airstreams like many folks in the USA have picked up a few pounds! Won't have to worry so much then about the tow vehicle.

1971 Info
https://www.airstream.com/wp-content...ayouts-249.pdf

1981 Info
https://www.airstream.com/wp-content...rplans-328.pdf

1991 Info
https://www.airstream.com/wp-content...ations-470.pdf

Just a thought,

[BT2513]

I'm towing a 27FB International with a Tahoe. It is not ideal. I think it depends on where you are going, though.

We are mostly weekend warriors with a couple weeklong or longer trips sprinkled in throughout the year. When we are headed to the lake for the weekend (60 miles max, most of the time half that), I just tow with the Tahoe and go slow. When we are headed towards the mountains (our NC mountains are really hills compared to the West), I'll sometimes rent a 3/4 ton truck. We went to Orlando last year and I also rented a truck for the trip down I-95 (flat but I wanted ultimate safety).

My spouse's job is WFH and I drive 4 miles round trip to the office. Outside of the trailer, we have no need for a new vehicle. I figure we can use what we have and rent for the more stressful trips.

[swed02]

I love the feedback thank you. Here is some more color. Because the vehicle has a "heavy-duty towing package", it has sway control, a heavy duty radiator, traction assist, and trailer brake control. Do these amount to anything to you guys -- ye who tow more than I do? Thanks again.

[DCPAS]

You should get your payload figure from the sticker that has your tire pressure info. I am pretty sure it is less than the number you are calculating. For comparison, our 2018 regular length Navigator is 1,552, which I think is pretty good, but not the over 1,700 you are calculating.

Also, while it is not clear, some think that you do not need to substract hitch weight from payload because the towing standard already takes that into account.

You should contact Andy Thompson. To my understanding he likes the Expedition / Navigator platform and has said he has people towing 30 footers with them.

We tow a 25 FC RB with ours. The RB's are not as bad on tongue weight as the FB. We hit all our numbers, but are empty nesters and do not put a huge amount of weight in the truck.

A proper hitch setup is critical. I know this from personal experience.

[BT2513]

Originally Posted by swed02

I love the feedback thank you. Here is some more color. Because the vehicle has a "heavy-duty towing package", it has sway control, a heavy duty radiator, traction assist, and trailer brake control. Do these amount to anything to you guys -- ye who tow more than I do? Thanks again.

Adding a transmission cooler would be a great upgrade. You probably have a transmission cooler already, but the GM "HD transmission cooler" is nothing compared to what is available for not a lot of money from aftermarket mfgs. not sure if Ford is the same. The one I added dropped our transmission temps about 40-60 degrees. I would look into one if I were you - there's nothing you can buy that will increase your towing capacity but this is one thing that will help with the longevity of your transmission.

Sway control = it will automatically break the trailer if it detects sway. This is NOT really a substitution for a WDH which will also limit sway. You do NOT want to be driving and have this system engage. I hear its a little unnerving. It may help in extreme situations but its definitely not my first line of defense against sway.

Trailer brake control = it has an integrated brake controller which is good. However, you could buy one inexpensively and install it yourself if you wanted to. This does not make the Nav a better tow vehicle, maybe just slightly prepared for it. Most any 1/2 ton truck will have one as well and pretty much all HD trucks.

HD radiator and traction control I think are fairly standard for any vehicle with a towing package. These are all "bolt on" things which help with the towing experience - real towing capacity and payload comes from the frame, suspension, and hitch and can't readily be added.

Something else to think about... do you need your rear seats? Can you remove them? We removed our 3rd row as we have no use for it. The payload is calculated with them installed so I'm guessing I'm getting about 120# back from removing them. Maybe a little more.

[swed02]

Thank you @DCPAS. You are mistaken, because I don't think I calculated 1700 on anything. I neglected to mention the payload rating on the sticker is 1506 (4x4 causes this to be lower). However, I was choosing to calculate payload starting with the GVWR, because doing so is more restrictive. I have reached out to Andy via. email, and didn't want to blow him up.

[jeffb831]

Originally Posted by swed02

Thank you @DCPAS. You are mistaken, because I don't think I calculated 1700 on anything. I neglected to mention the payload rating on the sticker is 1506 (4x4 causes this to be lower). However, I was choosing to calculate payload starting with the GVWR, because doing so is more restrictive. I have reached out to Andy via. email, and didn't want to blow him up.

Since the Payload sticker says 1506#, this is your limit that you need to start with. You would subtract the 470# for the family from this. That only leaves 1036# of payload, which will easily be consumed by the tongue weight and WD hitch weight.

Since you are so close, I'd go to a scale and get an actual weight of the vehicle loaded with fuel to get a good "curb" weight.

Etrailer offers a good article on TV limits: https://www.etrailer.com/faq-how-muc...an-I-tow.aspx?

[Bill M.]

One approach would be to load up the Navigator one day with whatever you think you will take camping and all the people and make a pass over the CAT scales. See how much actual room you have left for the tongue weight. I would expect if you can keep the total under the gross weight for the Navigator the WD hitch will distribute it between the axles okay. Guesses are just guesses. With the scales you will know for sure how much you have left for the tongue weight. Maybe there are 25' models with less tongue weight?

[field & stream]

Numerically, you are clearly on the edge here. Opinions on this forum will be passionate and split.

Maybe the answer for you has nothing to do with the trailer, the tow vehicle, or the combination. Maybe the answer is more about: you.

Generally speaking, a more capable tow vehicle will have higher performance and lower risk — a less capable tow vehicle will have lower performance and higher risk.

With regard to you, generally speaking, are you a higher performance/lower risk person, or a lower performance/higher risk person?

[swed02]

@field and stream, that's a good way to look at it. I think the fact that we will not be full time-ers, and my wife loves her new (to her) Navigator, the comfort of knowing she's got this great machine for years and years is something I place a high value on. This is something we look at doing 1x/month 3-day weekend trips and probably 2 or 3 1+week trips per year. I am a confident tow driver in the vehicles I have driven, but that experience is fairly limited. Thank you for your perspective. I find it very helpful, and I will take it under advisement.

[swed02]

@bill, the 25' Int'l is 40lbs. less tongue weight, and the 27' Int'l is oddly 80+ lbs. less, but those are just the list weights which plenty of folks have said are not usable.

[field & stream]

@swed002 — thanks. I oversimplified my analysis above by ignoring the trailer size variable. A smaller trailer also favorably impacts the performance/risk analysis. As has been suggested above, maybe a 23’ trailer (or even a 20’) would work for you.

While the prevailing opinion is to get a bigger trailer because eventually you will want it, that is not true for everyone. For example, we started with a 23’ Airstream and then bought a second smaller one for shorter trips. The first year we had both we used the 16’ for 59 nights and the 23’ for one night! Sold!

This whole trailer thing is an exercise in trade offs. There are many advantages to smaller trailers.

[swed02]

@field and stream -- yes, I'm understanding "trade-offs" on a daily basis with all this research. We've rented 40' and 38' diesel pushers before. You can basically bring everything with you... except you don't have a car to drive. The 25' is basically the smallest AS we would be able to do. The next move would be to eject from AS all together and look at the milk carton-style, cheaper TT which have a lot less weight, more storage capacity, and less hitch weight. I really don't want to go down that route, because I see the AS as something we use for 3-5 years while our daughter is still small. Once she gets to being in her teens, I have a strong feeling we'll likely be too busy to get the full usage of the rig. That's my vision. I just need to not be overly optimistic, which is why I wanted to get ya'll's tough love insight. Thank you.

[GOUSC]

I think everyone has given you the advice you need to make your decision. As noted, you are close to the limits of your TV. Load it up lightly with the passengers you will be taking and go to the CAT scales to see exactly where you are. Seems like people either love or hate Andy Thompson. He is very knowledgable in this area and will need those CAT scale #'s to advise you of next steps. Anyone else will need those #'s as well.

Sounds like you are only in this for the next 3-5 years and will re-evaluate from there. Based on that alone, I wouldn't sell the Navigator if your wife loves that vehicle. I would bet Andy could get it to work for your uses. If not, I would just rent a TV for the few times it appears you will be using the RV. If you then decide later that you and your family love the RV lifestyle you can consider purchasing a TV that you can use as a daily driver. Prices are high for RV's and TV's right now and renting a TV will buy you time until you decide what you really want to long term.

I personally like to stay within the TV's weight ratings. I believe there are ways you can load everything to stay within those limits. We have all been there. But, now is the time for you to go to the scales / get the real #'s / talk to Andy and then report back to us and let us know if you found a solution. I'm sure there are others out there who are in a similar situation and would like to hear back from you.

[DCPAS]

Originally Posted by swed02

The 25' is basically the smallest AS we would be able to do.

I suggest you could make a 25 RB work. That's what we have. It's the FB models that have the higher real world tongue weight. You would need to accept a lower trim level to get a RB model.

Whatever you decide on, you will need to get the hitch setup right. I ultimately decided I needed to learn how and do it myself with the help of weighs at Cat Scales. I can send you an example of a weighing spreadsheet if it would be helpful. I am very happy with the way our Navigator tows and it is a fantastic road trip vehicle.

[swed02]

I'm headed to the scales today! Thanks folks. @DC, yes please send me your spreadsheet. I've started making one, but understand it will start to get more complicated once I add a few more fields/variables. I'll check back in once I've got the numbers.

[Dennis C]

I think the discussion above has things covered pretty well. To give you some perspective, I tow a 23FB with a half ton truck. My max payload rating is 1,479 lbs., which isn’t too much different from your Navigator. The tongue weight of my trailer is roughly 535 lbs. as measured with a Sherline scale. I have to pack very carefully to stay within my limits, especially payload. My wife and I like to bring lots of gear camping, including a generator, portable gas firepit, Weber grill, etc. There’s no way we could bring the things we want and stay within our limits with anything larger than our 23FB.

[Bcc75]

Originally Posted by swed02

I love the feedback thank you. Here is some more color. Because the vehicle has a "heavy-duty towing package", it has sway control, a heavy duty radiator, traction assist, and trailer brake control. Do these amount to anything to you guys -- ye who tow more than I do? Thanks again.

All of these things definitely help, but they are designed to take stress of towing off the engine and other vehicle components(brakes, transmission, etc). Ford's HD tow package typically includes a transmission cooler so you probably have that as well. However these things are designed to help the vehicle tow the added weight of the trailer. They mean nothing as far as payload rating. If you are significantly over that rating, then none of these things matter and you are going to have issues. A lot of folks make 1/2 ton trucks and SUV's work with the 25' and up trailers. It's a chess game. I too like Mikeinca, tried towing a 25' with an F150. It was just too marginal for me so I went with a 3/4 ton and much happier.