Does my intended usage warrant going with diesel?

[Moflash]

Originally Posted by slowmover

A leaf sprung axle has problems with wheel hop under power. Axle wrap. Same for body movement against the suspension without a Panhard Rod.

Engine torque management and a five link coil rear suspension means the 2500 is going to be more sure footed under power. And more resistant to tripping hazards which should be a serious consideration. It is also better in crosswinds.

Hotchkiss drive is reliable, and can be made better. But it has its limits. And ride quality is not the main reason to choose another, more sophisticated type. But it can be "better" as perceived by passengers.

In racing applications you are spot on but in the world of towing and hauling your examples are negligible.
Coil spring suspension on trucks was a new thing in the 60's only to find out later that when loaded it produced more sway and it was unpredictable thus the addition of a pan hard bar.Coils work much better on passenger cars and in racing but not so good with heavier loads on the rear.Also the multi progression rates that the multiple leaf springs provide could not be reproduced with coil springs so the ride quality when unloaded was compromised
Easy demonstration take a spring out of a ballpoint pen stand it up and compress it with your thumb.See how it reacts to a load?Same thing happens when a load is applied to your truck.
The automobile manufacturers realized this and went back to leaf springs in the rear for trucks.Now it is being touted as a new idea and the way to go but alas it's already been done but it is great for marketing.Rear leaf springs ride smoother when unloaded are more stable with less sway and have a more controlled progression due to multiple leafs which come into play one by one as the load increases.This applies to pickup trucks used for hauling payloads.For racing Baja etc...coils are the proven way to go due to little or no payload.


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[slowmover]

I don't think you understand, despite your examples. The differences are not negligible. My experience with tow vehicles from the 1970s says otherwise. And you'd agree were you to drive them.

Find some matches and do some testing. I have.

And understand that racing is applicable. Better trailer handling is directly related to better suspensions.

[Moflash]

Only negligible in our towing application as stated.I have spent 40 years in the automobile business.It has been my passion since I was a little boy.Also I have been fortunate enough to meet and spend time with the world best designers,engineers and production staff.I have attended many classes on the subject and hold numerous awards and accolades in multiple subjects relating to automobile product knowledge.I also have towed for many years.With my work I have received complementary new vehicles for personal use and evaluation since 1977 and they numbered in the hundreds.
I have driven on most of the major race tracks in the world and have driven the fastest most expensive supercars in the world.I could go on but it's pointless.
I guess what I am trying to say is that I like you have a little experience and knowledge in this subject and enjoy sharing it with people who are sincere in learning about vehicles.

I am also still eager to learn.So please explain your theory on how coil rear springs on a pickup are superior to leaf springs, please elaborate.


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[slowmover]

Have you towed the same travel trailer with otherwise comparable vehicles? Put them thru some hard paces? Try it out. Take the risk. See for your self.

Do you really believe those Chevy pickups were as bad as you recount, or did you use them? I didn't. Cars were then and now better. Some leaf and some coil rear back then. Broken pavement, crosswinds and the like, coil was better. Body didn't fight against tire traction. And MOOG had progressive rate coils then which worked as advertised.

[KJRitchie]

Going to test drive a 2015 Silverado Duramax 2500HD with LT trim later today. It has more features than the Ram Tradesman I test drove, more similar to Ram Big Horn trim and price.

Kelvin

[Moflash]

Originally Posted by slowmover

Have you towed the same travel trailer with otherwise comparable vehicles? Put them thru some hard paces? Try it out. Take the risk. See for your self.

Do you really believe those Chevy pickups were as bad as you recount, or did you use them? I didn't. Cars were then and now better. Some leaf and some coil rear back then. Broken pavement, crosswinds and the like, coil was better. Body didn't fight against tire traction. And MOOG had progressive rate coils then which worked as advertised.

Maybe this will help explain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMDQ8Yl7Ndk

[KJRitchie]

Originally Posted by KJRitchie

Going to test drive a 2015 Silverado Duramax 2500HD with LT trim later today. It has more features than the Ram Tradesman I test drove, more similar to Ram Big Horn trim and price.

Kelvin

Test drove a 2015 Silverado 2500HD Crewcab LT. Short Bed. Nicely equipped. Plenty of power and very quiet and you don't even know you are cruising at 70mph. Slate Grey is nice. Dealership pays for oil change services for 5 years and they allowed me to take the truck home for the wife to preview. We took an extended drive including mixed city and highway. After about 20 miles we both agreed the cloth seats are not comfortable enough for long trips compared to our cloth Tundra seats.

The Silverado appears to ride more car-like maybe because its longer wheelbase than the Ram 2500 CC Tradesman and my Tundra. The Ram Tradesman seats from my memory were more comfortable but the test drive wasn't very long. We are going to test drive a Ram Big Horn with the upgraded cloth seats. We will also be able to determine if the Ram is quieter.

The short list just got shorter.

Kelvin

[BoldAdventure]

Originally Posted by KJRitchie

Test drove a 2015 Silverado 2500HD Crewcab LT. Short Bed. Nicely equipped. Plenty of power and very quiet and you don't even know you are cruising at 70mph. Slate Grey is nice. Dealership pays for oil change services for 5 years and they allowed me to take the truck home for the wife to preview. We took an extended drive including mixed city and highway. After about 20 miles we both agreed the cloth seats are not comfortable enough for long trips compared to our cloth Tundra seats.

The Silverado appears to ride more car-like maybe because its longer wheelbase than the Ram 2500 CC Tradesman and my Tundra. The Ram Tradesman seats from my memory were more comfortable but the test drive wasn't very long. We are going to test drive a Ram Big Horn with the upgraded cloth seats. We will also be able to determine if the Ram is quieter.

The short list just got shorter.

Kelvin

Proof that comfort is all driver perception. I'm a long time GM guy. I have only ever owned 3 other non-gm's. My Audi, a Ford Mustang and this Ram.

When I went and drove the Silverado, I thought it was a turd. And a huge disappointment.

But, it's all in perception. Ram won me over. But there are still some points about it, where I think GM and Ford are a lil better. But Ram has really come a long way in putting the screws to the other guys. This is my subjective opinion.

[Moflash]

You are right it's all about what is comfortable to you.


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[jcl]

Originally Posted by Moflash

Maybe this will help explain.

Not worthy of being considered a trusted source IMO, given that the Youtube poster is "Dodge Chrysler Sucks Don't Buy Dodge Chrysler"

[switz]

We have the Big Horn trim level in the 2012 Dodge. I can drive it all day (10+ hours) and still be comfortable. The seats are a fabric that at least breathes some. Leather seats can be cold and clammy in the winter and hot in the summer. My Mercedes leather seats are vented to help keep retained body heat low.

I am short, so the Dodge fits my body pretty well.

[crispyboy]

If I were shopping for a new road trip vehicle I think I would want to get a trim level high enough that would offer both heated and cooled seats. I had an opportunity to use these on a trip one time and was extremely impressed.

[BoldAdventure]

Our Ram is a Laramie trim package, and the leather seats are both heated & cooled and are not the slightest bit clammy. And like Switz, I can drive comfortably for long hours in it.

And I agree with the above. When we were shopping, it was LTZ trim for the Silverado, Lariat for Ford and Laramie for Ram I was looking at. I really liked the Platinum Ford F150 we looked at, but the Ram interior felt superior and I liked the seats a bit more.

But generally I look at top models.

Originally Posted by Moflash

You are right it's all about what is comfortable to you.

True although I will say that sometimes you can buy what you thought was great only to learn later it's crap. And what you thought at the time was crap is actually superior. This is the realization that brought me around to using Apple hardware.

[khollister]

As to diesel or gas, you don't need diesel and you can't really justify it on cost unless you are piling up the miles far in excess of what most of us tow. However, I am on my second diesel Ram (05, now a 14) because I greatly prefer towing with a diesel. The available torque, ability to climb grades at speed without the engine screaming at 5000 RPM, range, exhaust brake and ability for low stress refueling at truck lanes are all part of why the $9K cost premium is worth it to me.

As to brand, I would still not touch a Ford diesel. While the 6.7's are way better than the 6.4's were, the Powerstroke forums are still full of powertrain issues, primarily turbo failures and water in fuel issues that Ford denies warranty coverage for. I personally ran across 2 6.7 drivers this year that suffered turbo failures.

I did test drive a couple F250's before buying my Ram 2500 last year and I felt the new chassis/suspension design on the Ram's resulted in a superior ride, notably the relative lack of frame flex when going over things like speed bumps or potholes. Ford does have some cool features (tailgate step, retractable mirrors, etc). YMMV of course.

I didn't personally consider a GMC/Chevy due to not liking the exterior styling (square wheel wells) or the interior at the time. I also was not happy with GM for other reasons. However, my impression is the Duramax is a reliable motor. The only thing I would be slightly concerned about is I believe they are using the Bosch CP4 lift pump (like Ford) rather than the time-proven CP3 that is in the Ram/Cummins.

The exhaust brake in the new Rams is outstanding, more effective than what I have experienced in the Ford. Putting the transmission in Tow/Haul mode, turning on the exhaust brake to Auto and setting cruise control is a remarkable experience - I have gone down some pretty steep, long grades without ever touching the brakes.

As far as transmissions, I never had a problem with the auto in my 05 and the 68RFE in my new truck operates perfectly from what I can tell also. I actually thought the 15 F250 6.7 I drove shifted worse (less smooth) than the Ram.

My opinion is if you want diesel, buy a Ram or GMC based on what seems most comfortable and or attractive. If you go gas, all 3 are in play.

[tjdonahoe]

Khollister, I tend to agree with you, except on the gas engines,I don't think ford is very impressive.....

[Moflash]

It's all in what you like.There are people on the Dodge forums with problems and the Chevy forums with problems.There are always problems with automobiles ( and people who drive them)But I have had two 6.7 diesels and had no trouble but I trade every 3 years.I am not a brand guy.I just buy what works and costs the least to drive and use.


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[KJRitchie]

We are hoping to travel extensively out west in a few years when I retire and I think a camper shell may be the best solution for pick up bed storage. We like our Tundra but the payload is skimpy and if I add a 200lb camper shell I'm more over payload and I'm sure we will need to pack a few more items for long trips. So we are looking at 3/4T for payload.

After test driving a Ram 2500 and Silverado 2500HD I don't think I would like the experience if they were gas powered so its diesel. We've never owned a diesel so rather than take a chance on a used one its new for us. To keep the cost down we are looking at less trimmed out models.

I've excluded Ford mainly because the XLT has outdate interiors and we don't like the fold down front seat console. None of the units in stock around me have rear view cameras. The F250 CC SWB only has a 26 gal tank.

The Duramax was at the top of my list but as in my previous posts we found the seats not comfortable enough.

Ram is the last choice. The only reason we are skeptical of Ram is the bad experience we had with a couple of Chrysler mini vans 15 years ago and the fact they are now part of Fiat. Fiat cars in the 70s were junk. I also don't like that Ram is assembled in Saltillo, Mexico. If BMW, Honda, Toyota, Kia, Mecedes and others build/assemble here so could Chrysler.

We are not in a rush but it would be nice to be able to knock out a could portion of a loan while I'm still working.

Kelvin

[J. Morgan]

One thing about a gas truck is that a person never HAS to fuel where there is diesel spilled all over the ground....

#JustSayin...

[MacPDX]

Originally Posted by J. Morgan

One thing about a gas truck is that a person never HAS to fuel where there is diesel spilled all over the ground....

#JustSayin...

Or all over the nozzle. Gas is definitely a cleaner experience.

[Danattherock]

Originally Posted by khollister

As to diesel or gas, you don't need diesel and you can't really justify it on cost unless you are piling up the miles far in excess of what most of us tow. However, I am on my second diesel Ram (05, now a 14) because I greatly prefer towing with a diesel. The available torque, ability to climb grades at speed without the engine screaming at 5000 RPM, range, exhaust brake and ability for low stress refueling at truck lanes are all part of why the $9K cost premium is worth it to me.

As to brand, I would still not touch a Ford diesel. While the 6.7's are way better than the 6.4's were, the Powerstroke forums are still full of powertrain issues, primarily turbo failures and water in fuel issues that Ford denies warranty coverage for. I personally ran across 2 6.7 drivers this year that suffered turbo failures.

I did test drive a couple F250's before buying my Ram 2500 last year and I felt the new chassis/suspension design on the Ram's resulted in a superior ride, notably the relative lack of frame flex when going over things like speed bumps or potholes. Ford does have some cool features (tailgate step, retractable mirrors, etc). YMMV of course.

I didn't personally consider a GMC/Chevy due to not liking the exterior styling (square wheel wells) or the interior at the time. I also was not happy with GM for other reasons. However, my impression is the Duramax is a reliable motor. The only thing I would be slightly concerned about is I believe they are using the Bosch CP4 lift pump (like Ford) rather than the time-proven CP3 that is in the Ram/Cummins.

The exhaust brake in the new Rams is outstanding, more effective than what I have experienced in the Ford. Putting the transmission in Tow/Haul mode, turning on the exhaust brake to Auto and setting cruise control is a remarkable experience - I have gone down some pretty steep, long grades without ever touching the brakes.

As far as transmissions, I never had a problem with the auto in my 05 and the 68RFE in my new truck operates perfectly from what I can tell also. I actually thought the 15 F250 6.7 I drove shifted worse (less smooth) than the Ram.

My opinion is if you want diesel, buy a Ram or GMC based on what seems most comfortable and or attractive. If you go gas, all 3 are in play.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I appreciate it.


Dan