Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 05-30-2023, 05:46 AM   #41
Rivet Master
 
dznf0g's Avatar
 
2007 30' Classic
Oswego , Illinois
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,686
Images: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by richard5933 View Post
On a trailer with electric over hydraulic you'd almost have to install the trailer equivalent to ABS braking on a car, correct?
Pretty much. There would have to be an actuator with an accumulator, re-plumbing the lines, wheel speed sensors, yaw sensors, and quite a bit of wiring.

Edit: I suppose more rudimentary system could be devised, but it would still require, at least 2 hydraulic circuits and yaw sensors, with some sort of electronic valving device to apply side to side braking priority.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Airstream Forums mobile app
__________________
-Rich-

"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." - Red Green
dznf0g is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2023, 06:05 AM   #42
"Cloudsplitter"

 
2003 25' Classic
Houstatlantavegas , Malebolgia
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 20,001
Images: 1
All this talk about 'stuff' to control trailer sway, why not just set up a proper rig that doesn't sway in the first place...this dumbo did.

Bob
🇺🇸
__________________
I’m done with ‘adulting’…Let’s go find Bigfoot.
ROBERT CROSS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2023, 07:48 AM   #43
4 Rivet Member
 
2024 30' Globetrotter
Currently Looking...
Houston , Texas
Join Date: Sep 2021
Posts: 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS View Post
All this talk about 'stuff' to control trailer sway, why not just set up a proper rig that doesn't sway in the first place...this dumbo did.



Bob

[emoji631]


Or why not do both?
FredWilma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2023, 07:49 AM   #44
Rivet Master
 
dznf0g's Avatar
 
2007 30' Classic
Oswego , Illinois
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,686
Images: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by FredWilma View Post
Or why not do both?
Exactly. One without the other is half a job.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Airstream Forums mobile app
__________________
-Rich-

"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." - Red Green
dznf0g is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2023, 09:13 AM   #45
"Cloudsplitter"

 
2003 25' Classic
Houstatlantavegas , Malebolgia
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 20,001
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by FredWilma View Post
Or why not do both?
I do all three...proper loading, competent TV and a PPP.
18 Seasons SFSG.

Bob
🇺🇸
__________________
I’m done with ‘adulting’…Let’s go find Bigfoot.
ROBERT CROSS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2023, 09:28 AM   #46
Rivet Master
 
2008 22' Safari
Spicewood (W of Austin) , Texas
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 3,021
I find it interesting that some of my friends who bemoan their perception of “lack of individual accountability” these days… are staunch promoters of automatic-“prevent-me-from-lacking-driving/towing-stupidity” gadgetry.

Driver/towing education is the First Step in this process. Proper equipment, and following experienced expert guidelines which are already well known, is the next step.

I believe and endorse the concept of “towing/trailering” testing of driver licensing applicants ..even going so far as to require “towing/trailering” certification/restrictions on the license, similar to motorcycles, large motorhomes, etc. The insurance industry would help in regulating these issues as well.
Boxite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2023, 09:30 AM   #47
Moderator
 
DKB_SATX's Avatar

 
2017 26' Flying Cloud
Alamo Heights , Texas
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 8,617
Images: 1
Blog Entries: 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by overlander63 View Post
Many modern, drive-by-wire tow vehicles have a "feature" that reduces the throttle to idle when the brakes are applied. That feature wipes out half the sway correction process instantly. And yes, I've verified on many models this occurs even when only using the trailer brake controller.
It's POSSIBLE that the ECU might get notified when you activate the trailer brakes from the manual input on an integrated, factory brake controller but it's different enough from the service brakes that I wouldn't expect it to close the throttle. I don't think my Ford brake controller does that, but then again I'm not sure Ford does the throttle-cut thing on service brake application. For people with an aftermarket brake controller I think this would never be an issue.
__________________
— David

Zero Gravitas — 2017 Flying Cloud 26U | WBCCI# 15566

He has all of the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. — Sir Winston Churchill
DKB_SATX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2023, 09:55 AM   #48
Rivet Master
 
2008 22' Safari
Spicewood (W of Austin) , Texas
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 3,021
Quote:
Originally Posted by DKB_SATX View Post
. I don't think my Ford brake controller does that, but then again I'm not sure Ford does the throttle-cut thing on service brake application. .
You may be confused about this…or maybe it’s me….. but in normal opertions…your vehicle automatically reduces throttle…when your foot leaves the accelerator and goes to the service brake pedal.

When you have your cruise-control engaged…it is automatically disengaged when you apply service brakes also. (and yes, I know, most vehicles warn against using cruise control while trailering…but most of us also disregard that on level highways, and it works out just fine.)
Boxite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2023, 10:26 AM   #49
Site Team
 
GCinSC2's Avatar

 
2007 30' Classic S/O
Somewhere , South Carolina
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 6,436
No comment on what may have caused the accident, but comments about OUR community.

Do you really know about YOUR rigs brakes? Old manual adjusting, current self adjusting and some of us have disc brakes on our AS. Could you correctly answer questions about how your brake controller is to be adjusted, pop quiz time.

Case in point I tried to assist a solo traveler with ineffective self adjusting brakes at a LARGE rally. A collective effort was made to seek knowledgeable owners about how SA's are adjusted (these needed a catch up adjustment to bring them back into range for self adjusting) the common answer was yeah, drive BACKWARDS FAST and jam on the brakes. Wrong answer. Dexter self adjusting brakes self adjust in the FORWARD direction. And no one knew how to adjust to "catch them up". The solo traveler made an unplanned stop at a dealer for inspection and adjustment. All has been well since the catch up adjustment several years ago.

Controller settings. Seems like too many times the call goes out on Airforums, what controller setting should my rig be at, its a blank blank blank. Answers come back ranging all over the possible range. But if your controller is set at 9 out of 10 remember there ain't an 11 so time to get things checked out.

The 7 way plug on your rig, is it the duck bill type? I presented my bench study on this a few years ago and Dodge published a TSB all pointing suspect fingers at those double blade plug terminals vs a flat blade terminal plug. Mine is flat blade. Who wants a questionable connection on a brake connection?

I'm future technology and I'm here to save you. I haven't heard of a factory built currently available production Airstream with some type of braking system beyond self adjusting drum brakes and they use 1 wire to run all brakes, 2 or 4 wheels. If it exists, please provide a link from Airstream describing it, not a concept rig. Future technology vs what do you have now?

And now for what we as owners can control. Tow vehicle and trailer mechanical conditions, awareness and system conditions.

And finally that space between our ears. I taught motorcycle safety classes several years ago and it was not a free lance program it was by the book, MSF. One of the mental tasks we drilled into students was SIPDE

Scan
Identify
Predict
Decide
Execute

I still remember the book examples of scanning for a stopped car entering a road or a kid dribbling a basketball on a sidewalk and many more and then plugging this info into our onboard processor and taking appropriate actions as a responsible driver with a trailer in tow which should set different parameter's into our program that reflect our rigs capabilities and conditions.

Safe travels.

Gary
__________________
S/OS #001 2005 Dodge Ram 2500 5.9L 6 Speed
16" Michelins, Hi Spec Wheels, Max Brake, Dexter 4 Piston Disc Brakes, Carslile Actuator, Equal-I-Zer, Dill TPMS. Campfire cook. BMV-712. DEMCO 21K Lb Cast Iron coupler
GCinSC2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2023, 11:21 AM   #50
Moderator
 
DKB_SATX's Avatar

 
2017 26' Flying Cloud
Alamo Heights , Texas
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 8,617
Images: 1
Blog Entries: 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxite View Post
You may be confused about this…or maybe it’s me….. but in normal opertions…your vehicle automatically reduces throttle…when your foot leaves the accelerator and goes to the service brake pedal.

When you have your cruise-control engaged…it is automatically disengaged when you apply service brakes also. (and yes, I know, most vehicles warn against using cruise control while trailering…but most of us also disregard that on level highways, and it works out just fine.)
I am not at all confused about this. The context is the "gas it and apply trailer brakes" recommendation for sway events. There are some manufacturers (Toyota is one) that have implemented throttle-to-idle instructions in their engine management systems when the brakes and throttle are applied simultaneously after the "unintended acceleration" lawsuits. This is distinctly different than the expected behavior of disengaging cruise control or stepping off the accelerator pedal. I don't know that the software would detect brake application from even an integrated trailer-brake control to trigger the throttle-to-idle feature, and I'm sure it wouldn't detect an aftermarket brake controller application.
__________________
— David

Zero Gravitas — 2017 Flying Cloud 26U | WBCCI# 15566

He has all of the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire. — Sir Winston Churchill
DKB_SATX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2023, 12:31 PM   #51
Rivet Master
 
2008 22' Safari
Spicewood (W of Austin) , Texas
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 3,021
Quote:
Originally Posted by DKB_SATX View Post
I am not at all confused about this. The context is the "gas it and apply trailer brakes" recommendation for sway events. There are some manufacturers (Toyota is one) that have implemented throttle-to-idle instructions in their engine management systems when the brakes and throttle are applied simultaneously after the "unintended acceleration" lawsuits. This is distinctly different than the expected behavior of disengaging cruise control or stepping off the accelerator pedal. I don't know that the software would detect brake application from even an integrated trailer-brake control to trigger the throttle-to-idle feature, and I'm sure it wouldn't detect an aftermarket brake controller application.
That better clarifies your thought process a bit from where you wrote: “ … it's different enough from the service brakes that I wouldn't expect it to close the throttle”.
Boxite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2023, 10:32 AM   #52
2 Rivet Member
 
Jamestown , Mars
Join Date: Aug 2022
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenchase View Post
So many variables. Jeep Cherokee has a GVW of 5,500 which is more than I thought. Towing weight restrictions most likely hitch structural related. Does the Jeep Cherokee have electronic sway control like the F-150? I really think electronic sway control is the magic sauce that can abort the onset of sway in situations like this.

For my part I have started a practice of putting my finger on the trailer brake paddle any time I crest a hill with a semi on my tail in the left lane.
Be careful what you expect from the 150's sway control. I've owed 2 trucks with sway control. Both had issues when it came to sway. In both cases, the trailer was using a Blue Ox WD hitch. Both FORD and Blue Ox told me turn off the truck sway control when using a WD which is also designed with sway control. Issue is truck sway control will "fight" the WD and can increase the sway problem.

I spoke to engineers at both companies, towing instructors with both FMCA and Escapees, and all agreed--turn off the truck sway control went using a hitch with sway control.

Having taken a towing course with a F-150 equipped with sway control, the electronic control (which control rear wheel braking) probably wouldn't have prevented this crash due to the way the driver responded by putting right onto the shoulder then back. Added to the whipping, tail wagging the dog.

Now driving a F-250, which easily handles the trailer, using the Blue Ox WD hitch.
xyzabc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2023, 10:39 AM   #53
2 Rivet Member
 
Jamestown , Mars
Join Date: Aug 2022
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by DKB_SATX View Post
I am not at all confused about this. The context is the "gas it and apply trailer brakes" recommendation for sway events. There are some manufacturers (Toyota is one) that have implemented throttle-to-idle instructions in their engine management systems when the brakes and throttle are applied simultaneously after the "unintended acceleration" lawsuits. This is distinctly different than the expected behavior of disengaging cruise control or stepping off the accelerator pedal. I don't know that the software would detect brake application from even an integrated trailer-brake control to trigger the throttle-to-idle feature, and I'm sure it wouldn't detect an aftermarket brake controller application.
I think you misunderstood. Slight acceleration while MANUALLY applying the trailer brakes with the trailer brake controller. Your Toyota wouldn't drop to idle since you aren't using the truck brakes. This works at helping getting sway under control.
xyzabc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2023, 10:51 AM   #54
Rivet Master
 
2016 16' Sport
Miami , Florida
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,611
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZOZ View Post
Jeep Cherokee towing capacity 2,000 lbs (4,500 with Towing packages) + Forest River Micro Lite 25' UVW #5,748 + HW #824 = disaster.




zoz
I’m fairly certain that is a Grand Cherokee which has a towing capacity of up to 7200 depending on the configuration. The hitch weight of 824 however exceeds the Grand Cherokee limits and most likely the frontal load limits. Not a great choice for that trailer but infinitely better then a Cherokee.
Shiny16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2023, 10:52 AM   #55
Rivet Master
 
2008 22' Safari
Spicewood (W of Austin) , Texas
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 3,021
Quote:
Originally Posted by xyzabc View Post
I think you misunderstood. Slight acceleration while MANUALLY applying the trailer brakes with the trailer brake controller. Your Toyota wouldn't drop to idle since you aren't using the truck brakes. This works at helping getting sway under control.
CORRECT! (as for applying acceleration while simultaneously applying trailer-braking only)…as that “straightens” the combination and almost instantly stops sway.

Unless practiced…it’s not an easy thing to quickly accomplish… but my own First Action is to apply trailer-braking manually…then apply/maintain throttle.

My brake controller (Hopkins InSight) consists of three basic assemblies… a display (which I have mounted above/left of my instument panel in my direct viewing area, instantly informs me of how much trailer braking is being applied and also continuously confirms trailer brakes are operational even when not applied)… a main-box/accelerometer which controls the system and senses the rate of deceleration vs brake-pressure applied)…. and a manual “trigger” to manually apply the trailer brakes only. The advantage of this system is it allowed me to place those items where convenient-and-comfortble (readily accessible manual trailer brakes).
I placed the display where it is in my main view (as previously mentioned) and I placed the manual “trigger” exactly where my hand naturally falls when I wish to apply trailer brakes…. while I placed the main-control-accelerometer-box out of sight and out of the way on the left kick-panel.

This link includes a video which is useful:

https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/...B&gclsrc=aw.ds
Boxite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2023, 11:38 AM   #56
Rivet Master
 
gator.bigfoot's Avatar
 
2007 30' Classic
KW , Ontario
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 999
If it wasn't for the rear bike carrier it most likely would have been ok if the inside was loaded correctly. By just hitting the trailer brakes separately of the TV it would have straightened out the trailer right away. But at some point he/she really hit the brakes hard as I can see smoke from the the front wheel. Either way it's unfortunate.
gator.bigfoot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2023, 11:56 AM   #57
Rivet Master
 
2008 22' Safari
Spicewood (W of Austin) , Texas
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 3,021
Quote:
Originally Posted by gator.bigfoot View Post
If it wasn't for the rear bike carrier it most likely would have been ok if the inside was loaded correctly. By just hitting the trailer brakes separately of the TV it would have straightened out the trailer right away. But at some point he/she really hit the brakes hard as I can see smoke from the the front wheel. Either way it's unfortunate.
Rear Bike Carriers certainly detract from stability on trailers already questionable….but are not “most likely”… to the be cause if the trailer is otherwise properly loaded with the bike-racks taken into consideration, imo.

The braking action displayed did indeed unload the TV rear axle and load the front axle reducing the TV’s ability to maintain directional control. Observe how the TV rear-end Lifts the moment the brakes are applied. It takes both axles of the TV firmly on the pavement to maintain directional control…(and certainly, the longer the wheelbase the better. This rig started out on the trip unbalanced.)
Boxite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2023, 12:25 PM   #58
2 Rivet Member
 
2022 25' International
Palos Verdes Estates , CA
Join Date: Nov 2020
Posts: 37
Trailer Sway

This happened to us. Gusty winds, semi tractor trailer draft and going down hill. Perfect storm. The tail wagged the dog, we flipped in a median. TV and 22’ Bambi totaled! No one hurt. Terrifying. We learned that the Hensley Arrow hitch virtually prevents sway. We have one now and feel safe.
DebTaylor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2023, 01:13 PM   #59
Rivet Master
 
2016 16' Sport
Miami , Florida
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,611
Quote:
Originally Posted by DebTaylor View Post
This happened to us. Gusty winds, semi tractor trailer draft and going down hill. Perfect storm. The tail wagged the dog, we flipped in a median. TV and 22’ Bambi totaled! No one hurt. Terrifying. We learned that the Hensley Arrow hitch virtually prevents sway. We have one now and feel safe.
Sorry that happened to you and happy there were no injuries. Could you post the type of TV and speed for the discussion? It would be nice to hear an honest firsthand account.
Shiny16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2023, 02:21 PM   #60
Rivet Master
 
2019 25' Flying Cloud
Sequim , Washington
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 528
Blog Entries: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvr_Bullet View Post
Be careful when using a generic name Jeep Cherokee, there are different models with very different capabilities in towing etc. some with excess of 7000 lbs.
Yes, my 2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee EcoDiesel was rated for 7,500 lbs. I used an Equalizer hitch and towed our 23'FC to 45 states including Seattle to Newfoundland, Alaska, multiple crossings of the Rockies, and eastern mountains like West Virginia, Blue Ridge Parkway, etc. Never had any sway or white knuckle moments. I always loaded carefully within GVCW limits and used a CAT scale to confirm things before a long trip.

The bikes on the video appear to have fat tires and may be e-bikes which weigh quite a bit. Or at least these were heavier off-road bikes. That rear weight definitely didn't help matters.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_2765.jpg
Views:	61
Size:	266.9 KB
ID:	432526   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4449.jpg
Views:	61
Size:	441.4 KB
ID:	432527  

__________________
D2
"Having differences makes a difference"
WestieHouse is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Anatomy/repair of LeDeux openers for the Hehr roof vent bjond Roof Vents, Skylights & Fans 52 09-03-2022 12:44 PM
The Anatomy of a Towing Accident -- What is? AIRHEDS Towing, Tow Vehicles & Hitches 74 01-13-2017 08:43 AM
Anatomy of a Dent Removal gdanderson Ribs, Skins & Rivets 3 12-15-2014 06:52 AM
Greys Anatomy Killo1 Off Topic Forum 4 07-10-2006 11:25 PM


Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Airstream, Inc. or any of its affiliates. Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.