Airstream tongue weight is way too high vs the spec? True or False?

[foobar]

Originally Posted by InvertdEagle

Regarding the composite subfloor, the TransCore subflooring that Airstream is currently using (manufactured by Ridge Corporation), is actually a little bit lighter than the 5/8" plywood subfloors used previously. While I've had a hard time tracking down exact numbers, data on similar composite flooring seems to support about a 20-25% weight reduction over 5/8" plywood. I don't think the additional weight is a function of the new composite subfloor.

That's good to know. Thanks for chiming in.

[foobar]

Originally Posted by Dennis C

The switch to composite floors began in mid 2020, so some 2020 models have plywood floors and some have composite floors. My trailer was built in September of 2019 and it has a plywood floor.

Well, then ignore my wild-ass-guess, lol.

A 23ft trailer with no factory options ships with 408 more pounds of lard than the average weight of the first 10 units.

Variation in plywood weight isn't likely to be that high for the amount of cabinetry in a trailer of that length.

I wonder if they modified the cabinetry vs the earliest units. I'm thinking more along the lines of adding another overhead cabinet or something similar.

Some data:

For a sheet of 3/4" thick plywood,

Hardwood Plywood 67.5 lbs
Marine Plywood 75 lbs
Baltic Birch 71.5 lbs

What Airstream uses most resembles Marine Plywood as it has at least 5 ply construction and minimal voids.

So to get 408 additional pounds of weight, that would be equivalent to 408 lbs/ 75lbs per sheet => 5.44 sheets of plywood.

It's pretty clear from the calculation above that 408 lbs is way outside of what could be expected in terms of the normal variation in plywood weight.

So, Airstream added the equivalent of almost 5 and a half sheets of marine grade plywood in terms of the added weight for your 23ft trailer in comparison with the average weight of the first 10 units that were manufactured.

That kind of weight delta has to come from a significant change. Like increasing the thickness of the plywood used throughout the cabinetry. Or adding one or two additional overhead storage cabinets.

Or, they hid a 50 gallon tank of fresh water and filled it for you, lol ... 408 lbs /8.3 lbs-per-gallon = 49.16 gallons of fresh water.

[kdfulsome54]

About a year I was at the Airstream of Scottsdale dealership. A gentleman was there that was identified as an Airstream factory representative. The tongue weight question was asked by another customer and the rep responded by say tongue weight list is without any a/c units,no propane tanks, no batteries, no solar, and no power fans. This would easily explain a 400lb increase in tongue weight.

[foobar]

Originally Posted by kdfulsome54

About a year I was at the Airstream of Scottsdale dealership. A gentleman was there that was identified as an Airstream factory representative. The tongue weight question was asked by another customer and the rep responded by say tongue weight list is without any a/c units,no propane tanks, no batteries, no solar, and no power fans. This would easily explain a 400lb increase in tongue weight.

The spec sheets for the 2022 and earlier airstreams state that the tongue weight spec includes full propane tanks and two flooded lead acid batteries in the battery box on the A-frame, but does not include any factory build options (2nd A/C, solar package, etc).

For 2023, I understand that the factory will no longer include batteries as part of the purchase prices (even though these were installed by the dealer as of 2022). Batteries will become a dealer installed option for customers, so it probably makes sense to not include that weight in the trailer spec sheet.

But, it's going to add to the customer purchase challenges. There are many folks buying their first Airstream that purchase a tow vehicle and WD hitch to match the stated Airstream tongue weight and GVWR. Today, these owners are sometimes shocked/surprised that an advertised spec of 875 lbs for a GT 27 FB Twin ends up at 1060lbs when they take delivery and ends up even higher when personal gear is loaded into the trailer. If Airstream reduces their factory tongue weight spec by another 120lbs, that will make this disconnect worse than it is today. This sometimes means that people choose the wrong tow vehicle and hitch.

[switz]

Airstream's corporate greed knows no limits! Ratising prices while not including the basics and exceptionally poor QC really gives a new customer the shaft. Darn shame.

So glad we have older rigs.

[gdanderson]

Switz:

I can imagine that "Greedy Corporate Airstream" is equality glad that you only own older Aristreams!

Greg Anderson
Wisconsin

[foobar]

Originally Posted by switz

Airstream's corporate greed knows no limits! Ratising prices while not including the basics and exceptionally poor QC really gives a new customer the shaft. Darn shame.

So glad we have older rigs.

Don't think the move to stop providing flooded lead acid batteries necessarily driven by greed. A lot of folks end up replacing them with AGM or lithium, so it does make sense to leave the battery selection to the customer. Helps limit MSRP increases too as a side benefit.

What I would like to see is a simple table of tongue weight vs factory options. When we ordered our Globetrotter, we had exactly two factory options to choose from (add second a/c and/or add solar package)

The table of tongue weights would look like:

Base model: 875lbs
Base model with 2nd a/c only: 950
Base model with solar package only: xxxlbs
Base model with solar and 2nd a/c: yyylbs

Note: customer needs to add the weight of their desired WD hitch to the appropriate tongue weight above in order to arrive at the correct tow vehicle and tow receiver requirements.

Problem solved. Why can't Airstream provide this?

[Genebuilder]

Why are you asking us? Ask Airstream. It seems your calculations were based on incorrect, non empirical data. Not what a good engineer does.

[foobar]

Originally Posted by Genebuilder

Why are you asking us? Ask Airstream. It seems your calculations were based on incorrect, non empirical data. Not what a good engineer does.

I will pass the suggestion on to Airstream.

As to your question: I started the adventure with Airstream back in February when I ordered my trailer.

Thankfully, I had read the various airforums comments about tongue weights as measured in the field running much higher than the values shown in the Airstream brochures and Airstream.com specification web pages. I paid attention and made my trailer selection accordingly with the goal of getting a big enough trailer for our personal needs while staying within the capabilities of the tow vehicle I currently own. It's tight, but doable.

So, I was naturally curious as to the disconnect between the spec'ed values and the higher values folks were measuring with their rigs.

What this thread was supposed to be all about is my attempt to try and understand what contributes to the differences in weight and sharing what I learned. We have digressed a bit here and there, but that's OK.

Some folks have enjoyed the discussion. Others have been annoyed for whatever reason and have expressed themselves accordingly. Doesn't bother me and I hope it doesn't bother others. Appreciate everyone who has participated in this thread.

In summary, I think it is pretty clear now that Airstream specs the tongue weight and trailer weights (and thus the ultimate trailer cargo capacity) on the 'base' trailer configuration without options. This is similar to how truck manufacturers handle their specs, so in hind sight this makes sense.

However, unlike truck manufacturers that have a massive combination of potential options that can be installed on the vehicle that impacts the vehicles tow and cargo specs, Airstream has a limited number of options so if the customer knows the their WD hitch weight, it would be possible to get a pretty accurate estimate up front with respect to the final tongue weight (before customers load the vehicle anyway) for each possible trailers option combination.

This would help the customers avoid inadvertently making a poor choice for their tow vehicle or even forcing the need for a more capable tow vehicle (a potentially expensive mistake).

This thread has run its course and can be closed now. I will reach out to Airstream customer support with the suggestions I pointed out in my last posting.

Thanks again for everyone who participated in the the discussion. It was entertaining and informative.

[mojo]

Whew...since you have only had your trailer for a little over a week, perhaps it's time to get out and see out it feels traveling. All the book numbers and opinions here don't mean a thing until you get the feel towing in the wind, rain and mountains.

[foobar]

Originally Posted by mojo

Whew...since you have only had your trailer for a little over a week, perhaps it's time to get out and see out it feels traveling. All the book numbers and opinions here don't mean a thing until you get the feel towing in the wind, rain and mountains.

True!

I am having solar and lithium plus larger inverter installed at the moment. Hopefully we can get on the road in a few weeks and start having some fun.

[WellSaid11]

Originally Posted by Genebuilder

Why are you asking us? Ask Airstream. It seems your calculations were based on incorrect, non empirical data. Not what a good engineer does.

Yes, more hypos on top of guesswork really won’t solve any “issue” (if this is really an “issue”). The discussion should be had with AS.

Best of luck with that.

Originally Posted by foobar

This thread has run its course and can be closed now.

Foobar-

As you know, I am no moderator (ha!) but i’m pretty sure the OP doesn’t just get to “call it” as to when the thread is closed.

Originally Posted by mojo

Whew...since you have only had your trailer for a little over a week, perhaps it's time to get out and see out it feels traveling. All the book numbers and opinions here don't mean a thing until you get the feel towing in the wind, rain and mountains.

Indeed.

Originally Posted by foobar

I am having solar and lithium plus larger inverter installed at the moment. Hopefully we can get on the road in a few weeks and start having some fun.

Are you still planning on getting 1280ah of batteries and 4k of solar? Do they make a 15k inverter? That’s some serious power.

[Genebuilder]

Still dodges why he did not go out and physically measure tongue weights of trailers similar to what he wanted to buy. Would rather wax (numbingly) poetic.

[richard5933]

I think that it's a valid point foobar makes about pushing Airstream to have an accurate way to estimate the tongue weight one can expect on a particular configuration. Should be fairly simple for AS to come up with an online calculator or each of their models. Include drop-down selectors for model, length, etc. and then a series of toggles for the various available options. It would be possible to even include a spot to indicate if you're traveling with freshwater or propane in the tanks. At the end of all the clicking and toggling, the calculator spits out an estimate of the trailer weight and tongue weight.

I'd find that type of calculator helpful, and I'm sure that many others would as well. Heck, if my insurance company can help me choose between the various health insurance options based on the type of treatment I expect to need that year, there's no reason Airstream couldn't help customers better choose which tow vehicle they need to pull the various model trailers as that customer would actually be pulling them. The variations in trailer weight can't be any more complicated than the variations in health insurance available to me every year.

[WellSaid11]

Originally Posted by richard5933

I think that it's a valid point footer makes about pushing Airstream to have an accurate way to estimate the tongue weight one can expect on a particular configuration.

R-

I’m not going to speak for Genebuilder, but I don’t think he was saying it wasn’t a valid point. I think it was more directed to
the delivery.

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by WellSaid11

R-

I’m not going to speak for Genebuilder, but I don’t think he was saying it wasn’t a valid point. I think it was more directed to
the delivery.

I wasn't responding to or about what Genebuilder said.

[WellSaid11]

Originally Posted by richard5933

I wasn't responding to or about what Genebuilder said.

I was, and your comment was after his and also after “the thread was closed” as well. [emoji6]

[foobar]

Originally Posted by Genebuilder

Still dodges why he did not go out and physically measure tongue weights of trailers similar to what he wanted to buy. Would rather wax (numbingly) poetic.

I didn't realize that was your question.

After I learned about the higher tongue weights via airforums, ultimate Airstream was helpful and obtained measured tongue weights from globetrotter 25 and 27 fb twin configurations that I was considering purchasing.

Then I measured my own after purchase and wanted to know why the tongue weight was higher than specified.

Any other questions?

[foobar]

Originally Posted by WellSaid11

I was, and your comment was after his and also after “the thread was closed” as well. [emoji6]

Never said the thread was closed. Just said it could be.

It is certainly up to you and any others if you want to continue.

No offense is intended when I write something. If it comes across in a manner that offends, then I apologize.

[jadatis]

When you pack the trailer, you can influence the tongweight by where you place the heavy things.
As much possible to the back gives lower tongeweigt.

Once made a spreadsheet for it, but only in Dutch.
And later discovered that for tandem axle it did not calculate right. Has to do with dynamic balance instead of static balance.

There are some possibily's to lower the rear axle, or highen up the front axle of TT wich shifts some weigt from rear and tonge to front axle.
Then that more weight on front TT axle still below GAWR, because Airstreams have often comfortable reserve in GAWR's to the GVWR.
Also mostly comfortable reserve in maxload of tires to the GAWR.

Tirepressure then has to be calculated on the weight on front axle, and rear that same higher pressure, because it yust is prescribed to be the same.
But lower on rear enaugh for the lower weight gives more deflection, (but same as front tires) so dont spoil the highening up of the front axle.
But this requires weighing at least per axle fully loaded, estimating is dangerous.

Then if TT is weighed from the TV conected, tongweight is lower, and that is what counts for the 10% to 15% by the official rules.
With WDH you artificially lower the tongeweight.

Mind also that for WDH both vehicles, TV and TT are yust as important.

If you have heavy load in trunc of TV also WDH works to give lesser weight on rear TV.

If you could tighten the chains of WDH enaugh, you lift the rear axle of TV of the ground, and make a caterpillar of the combination

and no, I am not a profesional engeneer.never learned for it.