2012 Ram 2500/ProPride Brake Issues

[SteveH]

Originally Posted by dkottum

I think the smaller wire may restrict current flow when the controller first applies power to the brake actuators. There may be a momentary voltage drop calling for increased current to operate the actuators. Perhaps the long #14 wire can't carry it.

A test may be to disconnect a wire to one brake actuator on each side to reduce power demand, and see if there is a delay operating the remaining two brakes.

Doug, that might work on an electric brake equipped trailer as a test, but can't do that now on the '34 because it is electric over hydraulic.

[Ag&Au]

Don't read this if it looks too long, it was written mainly to help me think


To discuss what happens to current when voltage is changing requires an analysis of more than the resistance of the wire and rest of the circuit. It also requires a knowledge of the values of inductance and capacitance in the circuit, both intended and incidental. It also requires a detailed knowledge of the waveform of the voltage change. However if one is trying to operate a DC load at a distance from the voltage source, It is certain that a larger (less resistive) conductor will produce a larger voltage at the end of that wire than a smaller one will. In addition one needs to look at the various ground paths available to return the current back to the brake controller.

It is a fact that electrically actuated brakes (be they ultimately hydraulic or electric) involve solenoids or other forms of electromagnets which are simply inductors, which impede the current change reaction to voltage change. I think its is safe to assume that there is enough inductance to make any capacitance insignificant. Since the brakes and wiring Steve is using is pretty much the same as everyone else's and everyone else's works, I think it is 99% certain that the problem is the controller or the rest of the associated circuitry in the truck. For instance there could be some unintended reactance of some kind in the circuit applying power to the controller. However, I would think it would require an extreme amount of inductance to produce the noticeable delay Steve is experiencing.

This big push to make a vehicle do so many things that used to be preformed by replaceable accessories, is making them so complex that I don't think even the designers understand them, let alone those poor souls tasked with maintaining them.

This and other discussions about new tow vehicle has made my 2003 more valuable to me,

Ken

[switz]

Yep, Got my mind switched on the wire sizes and I should know better. I was proof reading the spelling and not all the verbiage. The numbers do decrease as wire size diameter increases and then we add more zeroes so a 0000 wire is larger than a 00 wire. Makes perfect sense.

[Ag&Au]

Originally Posted by switz

Yep, Got my mind switched on the wire sizes and I should know better. I was proof reading the spelling and not all the verbiage. The numbers do decrease as wire size diameter increases and then we add more zeroes so a 0000 wire is larger than a 00 wire. Makes perfect sense.

I think Steve needs a zero times 10 to the tenth power wire.

(yeah, I know its still zero)

Ken

[SteveH]

Almost ran over a dog coming home from our last trip at Christmas because of the trailer brake delay, and I was thinking what if it was a child?

Neither the dealer's "expert" nor the Service Manager will even call me back now.

Have written the letter, filled out the form, and gathered up all the service records, and the Lemon Law papers go out tomorrow. We'll see.

[switz]

This is a darn shame it had to come to this. I wish you lots of luck in this next phase of the problem resolution. If several others end up joining the parade, perhaps the class action concept might become appropriate to awaken the penny counters that dollars are at stake here.

[SteveH]

I don't think a class action suite would benefit anyone but the lawyers handling the case. What has caused me to file with the state under the lemon laws is 1. this is a major safety issue, and 2. Both the dealer and Chrysler customer service is now ignoring me, and not even returning phone calls.

My problem if I'm successful in getting the dealer to buy the truck back will be what to replace it with. Maybe I'll just hook the Airstream up to my FJ Cruiser. After all, there's worse things being done, IMHO, in Canada almost daily.

[switz]

When we saw the used 2011 34' Classic last year (#25 of 25), I wondered how I could tow that and fit under the 2012 Dodge 2500HD GCVW rating of 20,000 pounds. My truck scales at 8,340 pounds after the modifications and having a jack and the Hensley stinger and associated parts in the back seat area. If we put the same stuff into a 34 that we had in the 25, we would be darn close to the 20,000 number when hitched.

Thus a 3/4 ton with bed cover for lockable cargo space for a gen set and gasoline would seem to me to be the minimum for a 34' at 11,500 GVW. Your trailer disk brakes would allow you to perhaps use a smaller vehicle because the the increased braking capacity of the disks versus drum brakes and the disks are not subject to fade as much in the mountains.

It will be really interesting to see the actual towing and payload numbers for the Nissan with a small Cummins and the Dodge with the Italian diesel. Hopefully the new models comply with the SAE ratings like were adopted by Toyota and created by GM who has so far declined to live by the rules they created.

[SteveH]

In Texas if you bring a trailer in from out of state and the weight is not stated on the title, you must have it weighed and present a CAT scale ticket to get it licensed and titled, so on the way back from California with our 34' SO, I stopped and had it weighed....8820 on the trailer axles, with a GCVW of 18100. Granted, we didn't have too much stuff in the trailer, but did have a full water tank. So, with this trailer, and the others we have had, it has been my experience they are way under the gross rated weight.

With respect to the Diesels, all of them, and the emissions control requirements these days, the fuel and maintenance costs, I'm beginning to think it's no longer such a good deal. I may have to go back to a gasoline rig, but because of the weight I'm towing, I see no option but a truck. It could even be done with a maxtowing equipped and slightly modified 1/2 ton, but that would be the absolute minimum for me.

[Wazbro]

Originally Posted by switz

It will be really interesting to see the actual towing and payload numbers for the Nissan with a small Cummins and the Dodge with the Italian diesel. Hopefully the new models comply with the SAE ratings like were adopted by Toyota and created by GM who has so far declined to live by the rules they created.

Sorry, no GM did not create those standards, the most you could honestly say is that GM helped to create those standards.

Here is a quote on the subject from Standardized Tow Ratings: Why Automakers Aren't Using Them -- Edmunds.com :

engineers from the Detroit Three automakers and several Japanese truck makers got together with the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE). The idea was to create a voluntary standardized testing procedure for tow ratings.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by Wazbro

Sorry, no GM did not create those standards, the most you could honestly say is that GM helped to create those standards.

Here is a quote on the subject from Standardized Tow Ratings: Why Automakers Aren't Using Them -- Edmunds.com :

This is correct. It is an SAE creation with input from GM, Ford, Toy, Chrysler...and others.

BTW, don't count on seeing a lot of participation....yet anyway. Seems to be a bit of angst and hand wringing amongst the automakers on this one. If it becomes universally accepted (it is voluntary to participate), I think the automakers want to all announce at the same time...and no one seems to be able to agree on the timing, let alone the validity of the specs as they relate to real world hauling CAPABILITY, rather than performance.

[dkottum]

I believe tow ratings have to be approved, then massaged by marketing before release by automakers. And those ratings for some vehicles vary in different countries even though the vehicles don't.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by dkottum

I believe tow ratings have to be approved, then massaged by marketing before release by automakers. And those ratings for some vehicles vary in different countries even though the vehicles don't.

I assume you mean the current ones and not the proposed SAE ones???

If so, then you are correct....BUT not nearly....not even close to the extent that some here believe.

[SteveH]

It's been three weeks now since I sent the Lemon Law papers off and all I've received from anyone is a letter from Chrysler CS saying they received the letter and are forwarding it to the "appropriate" department. Seems clear to me they really don't want to talk with me now.

So, this morning I ordered a Prodigy P3 brake controller. It will not work with the existing computer program that is in the truck, and even if I remove the existing controller, the truck will have an alarm on the dash. However, I have come up with a plan.

This is my plan, and I'd like input from all who might have knowledge of these systems about it's chance of success, or what problems might develop: I'm going to physically remove the factory controller from the dash, but leave it all wired into the system except for it's output at the seven pin connector at the rear of the truck, and then tie-wrap it out of the way up under the dash. This I believe will not cause the truck's CPU to "throw a code". Then I install the Prodigy as if the truck never had a brake controller in the same physical place as the factory controller, running all new wiring from the battery, ground, stop light switch, and all the way out to the rear seven pin connector.

I've installed brake controllers like this many times in the past, it's not rocket science, and I know the Prodigy will work, but my only concern is alarms, or codes on the dash of the truck.

Your thoughts?

[slowmover]

SteveH, there is a likelihood -- a good possibility -- that someone else posting on CUMMINS FORUM (4th Gen) may have already done this. If not, as there are some tech savvy guys there, advice you desire may exist on that specialized forum. I'd join up and post the question as well as do an indepth search.

Good luck.

.

[SteveH]

Yes, I am a member of that forum also, and have just searched it and came up with the answers I needed. If anyone else wants to do it, it's here: Possible To Remove OEM Brake Controller? - Page 2 - Dodge Cummins Diesel Forum

Basically what I was going to do, but easier because they are using the factory wiring.

[SteveH]

Just a little update....got a letter from the state yesterday that said my vehicle had been titled before and was a program vehicle, not a demo vehicle, and so is not eligible for the buy back part of the Lemon Law in Texas. The claim has been changed to ask the manufacturer to fix the truck, which after thinking about it in a not angry frame of mind, I'm happy about.

Maybe I can negotiate with them, based on the evidence of so many others having problems with the factory controller, to reimburse me for the P3 I've bought and reprogram my truck's ECU to delete the factory controller, and I'd be happy with that.

[ghaynes755]

Steve, out of curiosity did you know you were buying a used/program vehicle and not a new truck or a demo truck?

[SteveH]

Yes, I knew it was a program truck, but what I did not understand is the Texas Lemon Law. It clearly stipulates that program vehicles, considered used, are not eligible for the buy back portion of the law, just the "repair" portion of the law. My fault that I did not fully research the law and Texas' definition of "demo" and "program" vehicles before I filed.

I was also confused about the issue because I was told by the dealer's finance person that the "in service date" (for warranty purposes) for the vehicle was the day that I bought it, even though it had 20,000 miles on it.

Still, I'm OK with this because if I had to go buy another tow vehicle today, I really don't know what it would be.

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

Originally Posted by SteveH

I was also confused about the issue because I was told by the dealer's finance person that the "in service date" (for warranty purposes) for the vehicle was the day that I bought it, even though it had 20,000 miles on it.

Hi, somehow I feel mislead in assuming that you bought a brand new vehicle; Now this changes the whole story.