1978 Sovereign Frame off

[wcronin4]

Made the sixty mile trip to the fabricator without incident. The frame didn’t fall apart and the old may-pop tires held.

He confirm my assessment that the frame was too badly decayed to be salvageable. So he is making a new one.

He is shooting to have it done by April 15.

And while Josh is working on the frame, I’ll be fixing all the windows, patching holes and and securing the outside.

Bill
Keeping Faith

[dbj216]

Glad Faith's old bones made it to the fabricator. Making a solid new frame will greatly enhance the value of your Airstream, probably greater than the cost of the new frame itself. Having a solid vintage Airstream is very nice indeed. I don't have a new frame, I have a patched up one.

Tanks, tanks, tanks are a dilemma. There are many ways to go to get modern waste water capacity. It will come to you in the middle of the night soon.

David

[wcronin4]

After speaking with both Dexter and Inland RV, I have a clearer idea about what is available for axles. One of the determining factors in buying an axle is the size of the Brake hubs, whether they are 10" or 12".
Once the decision is made to go with a 12" brake, the other decision is choosing the GVW of the axle. What came with Faith was 12" brakes and GVW of 3200 pounds. Inland RV is recommending axles with 3500 GVW. But they also say that the same axle with the 11" tube can be configured up to a 6000 lbs. GVW without increasing weight or the cost of the axle.
Josh, the fabricator, is going to build the main part of the frame with tubular steel rather than the C channel. He is also going to add a cross member, and do other things to strengthen the frame. He figures this will add about 200 lbs. to the chassis, maybe less.
Inland is quoting 4-6 weeks to get delivery on the axles.
The question is: “Does it make sense to increase the GVW to say 5000 lbs.?” Will amping up the axle weight show up somewhere else as an unintended consequence?
Also, I put measured drawings of the gray and black tank together, and I approached a custom tank builder to quote me on making new tanks with some modifications.
So now the work shifts to the shell. I have three vista windows that leak, a stacked window that leaks, and the two wing windows in the front need to be redone. So I have a month to get the shell ready to reinstall on the frame.
Bill
Keeping Faith

[dbj216]

Hi: I understand 10" drums are standard on axles under 3500 axle weight, 12" drums are standard on axles 3500 and higher. If your old axles are labeled 3200 pounds, then going with a 3500 pound axle is okay. That will get you 12" drums standard. The tag on the side of Faith's body lists the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating of the trailer. This is the max weight the trailer can carry. Divide that number in two and that should be what the axle ratings are. Since you will be adding some weight, going up to 3500 pounds makes sense.

I understand what the weight rating of a Dexter Torque Flex axle does is determine the type of rubber rods that will be inserted into the tube. The rubber is the flex, that gives the swing arms movement. Too light of a weight rating would cause the axle to "bottom out". Too heavy of a weight rating would cause the axle not to move much at all, or a stiff ride. Kinda like a very old axle.

Some of us lament the "stiff ride" of our tow vehicles, and then report it rides better when we plop the 800 pounds of tongue weight on the hitch receiver. I believe this is due to the truck's suspension being designed to carry a ton of cargo. When empty, stiff springs gives a stiff ride. Our Airstreams aren't cargo trailers. No dear, we can't take the piano with us.

Inland should guide you through the other axle selections including starting angle, mounting brackets, and shock mounting brackets. I might mention Colin Hyde in New York also distributes Airstream spec axles. It might be another source. Colin is where I purchased my first set of axles.

Others more knowledgeable than I will hopefully chime in.

David

[wcronin4]

David
You recently posted pics of your new holding tanks, and at one point I asked if you had the Inca part number for them. If you wouldn’t mind could you provide it?

Also, from the pics you provided, it looks like you’ve custom made tank supports instead of using pans to hold the tanks in place. How will you cover this up?

Bill
Keeping Faith

[dbj216]

Hi Bill: Here is a link to the Inca Plastics webpage. You can download their catalog from this site. I measure the space I want to install the new tank, length, width, and height. I consider how I am going to mount the new tanks. I carefully consider how and where I am going to drain water into the tank, and how I am going to drain water out of the tank, and how I am going to vent the tank. Then I thumb through their catalog until I find a tank that will work.

The 30 gallon black tank is Inca H 435 on page 35. My 27 gallon grey tank is H 136 on page 33.

I like "T" shaped tanks as I can hang them from angle irons easily. I could not find a tank like that for my black tank application. I needed to drain the toilet into the deep end of the tank. I needed to drain the black tank toward the rear of the trailer, yet allowing enough room for the "sanitary tee" between the dump valve and the drain manifold under the bumper cover. The tank I picked was too big for adding a decent grey tank next to it. So I went one frame bay forward.

The tank supports I had fabricated are bolted to the frame rails. I stepped them so I could have room for the grey tank drain pipe running along the curb side frame rail. I will insulate the black tank and cover it with belly pan aluminum. Same with the grey tank and its drain pipe. I do have a piece of sheet steel I could cover the area with also for more protection, but it is pretty heavy in the wrong place. I will paint a big sign on the bottom of the belly pan that says "Caution, tank underneath. Do Not Drill".

I have the tanks mounted, plumbed and tested. Note: My bath sink drains into the black tank to help keep it wet and expand wastewater capacity some.
No leaks found. I had the tanks filled to over 80% and sitting all night. Then I drained the tanks successfully. Ready to go.

Here is the link to the Inca catalog. Trigger warning. Inca Plastics seems loath to answer the phone to take your order. I found using email was better for me.

David

http://www.incaplastics.com/

[wcronin4]

David

Thanks for your post and Inca part numbers. Even though I’ve looked at your pictures I’m still not seeing how you laid them out. Would it be possible for you to sketch out how you laid them out. From the pics of yours, the tank plumbing looks to be draining out the back.,

Is the AS you put the tanks in a rear bath?

If you have a rear bath, did you have any trouble positioning the toilet flange to its original location with the new tanks?

Bill

[wcronin4]

I'm trying to get all the info I need to find a larger gray water tank and I ran into a question. The original tank has two notch-outs. See the pic below.


The wide V-shaped notch is what I have a question about. I can't recall from the disassembly what that notch was for. I thought it might be for the p-trap for the tub/shower but I believe the a carve out in the foam spacer below the tub/shower provides space for that. So I'm stumped.

It is important because most of the tanks that I can select to take its place don't have that V-notch. And to put one in creates a custom tank.

Can anyone help???? What is this notch for???

Bill
Keeping Faith

[dbj216]

I'll provide a sketch of my new wastewater tanks tomorrow. Don't expect me to use sketchup or proE, or autocad, or one of the others. I'll use paper and pencil.

My suspicion is the V notch in your grey tank is there for some other application. Below is a photo of the freshwater tank out of my wife's 86 Limited. It too has a square notch that serves no purpose in the trailer.

By the way her fresh tank is an Inca Plastic tank. Their name is molded in the tank. Inca also molded both the black and grey tanks out of my Overlander. See photo below. I bet your grey tank was also molded by Inca. Look for the part number on it.

I worked in a plastic rotomolding factory for a number of years. Rotomolding is a efficient way to mold "hollow" parts like tanks in lower volumes. Molds are usually sandcast aluminum. Sometimes you can design a mold to fit several applications. Maybe that is what Airstream did. Inca Plastics has been making tanks for the RV industry for over 60 years. There catalog is full of odd shaped tanks. That's why I just look for one that will fit my installation. I might not care if it had a notch in it, or a step, or some other feature that does not interfere with me.

Aligning toilet flange with a new tank is a bit of a challenge. I think I understand you are staying with the same toilet location, except there will be a new subfloor with no datum. First you locate the toilet in relation to all the other furniture in the bathroom and clear the frame rail and the cross members. Then you will cut about a 3 3/4 hole in your new floor for the flange. Your committed at that point. I mounted my new tank underneath in its correct position, and marked the center of the toilet flange onto the tank with a silver Sharpie. I drilled a new hole in my new tank. If wrong, out goes a $300 tank. Can't do it wrong. Pressure, sweat, take your time. Inca sells rubber grommet pipe connectors for their tanks. I used the rubber grommet, installed that in my tank, and installed the "down pipe" into the grommet. Then the toilet sits on the downpipe for a good seal. You can see what I did in my "Improvement Journal". It was a year ago I did this.

I also did the same thing for the drain pipes to the tanks, and the vent pipes.

David

[wcronin4]

Well I did figure out why there is a notch in my gray tank. It is for the p-trap below the shower.

That complicates trying to find a replacement gray tank assuming that I want to reuse/reinstall the original bath.
I'm waiting on a quote to have one custom made, but it will be expensive.

Bill
Keeping Faith

[wcronin4]

David

It sounds as though you drilled your own holes in the tanks you got from Inca. Is that correct?

I am assuming the holes drilled were for vents and the toilet fitting. Once the holes were cut and the fittings put in, how did you seal them up? For example the toilet outlet on my black tank is threaded to receive a male threaded flange.



So when you buy an Inca tank, do they install all the fittings or is this something you have to do?

Bill
Keeping Faith

[Minno]

Originally Posted by wcronin4

Do you have any pics with the new tank arrangement install?

Is this what you're looking for?
We have pics in our thread we could find for you, but they are angled from underneath the trailer as we did shell on, and put the tanks in later in our build. The waste tanks are supported by 3/4inch plywood and a metal frame that holds the plywood in place.

Chris

[my3sonsdad]

Originally Posted by wcronin4

Well I did figure out why there is a notch in my gray tank. It is for the p-trap below the shower.
That complicates trying to find a replacement gray tank assuming that I want to reuse/reinstall the original bath.
I'm waiting on a quote to have one custom made, but it will be expensive.

Bill
Keeping Faith

I looked at this as a potential alternative to a p-trap. Not aware that anyone has used one in an AS.

https://youtu.be/hARcVg1Edck

[Bubba L]

Originally Posted by my3sonsdad

I looked at this as a potential alternative to a p-trap. Not aware that anyone has used one in an AS.

https://youtu.be/hARcVg1Edck

Hepvo 1-1/2” traps have worked well for us. Good luck

[dbj216]

Hi Bill: The Minno Team beat me with a tank layout sketch. They're good. But I'll post my crummy sketch for your reference anyways.

Interesting discovery on why the notch. That explains why your grey tank was bigger than my 10 gallon grey tank. My shower P trap was next to the tank, not within a notch in the side of the tank.

I have used these rubber grommets for my waste tank pipe connections. See photo. Drain lines are not under a lot of pressure. These are easy to insert grommets that become a press fit when you insert the pipe. You hole saw a pipe clearance hold in your subfloor, you position and tighten the tank exactly where you want it, you then use the hole in the subfloor as a guide and hole saw a hole for the grommet in the tank, on center I might add. I use grommets for the 3" toilet flange and all my 1 1/2" piping. Using the grommet method, you do not have to send dimensional specifications to a tank maker on where you want the shower drain to go for instance. I think that can tie the hands of a "home builder" like me. I ain't that precise.

Inca Plastics was kinda the inventor of the "spin weld" process. If you look at the old toilet connect thread you may see some melted plastic around the OD. That may be a spin weld. Might be the same at the vent connections and the sink and shower drains. Inca can spin weld any fitting you want at any location you specify. But no rework allowed.

By the way, Inca Plastics does mold in a drain "boss" on the holding tank that the OD of a 3" ABS pipe will slip into. I applied some butyl caulk, inserted the pipe, and then used a hose clamp around the boss to hold it tight. Airstream did the same thing.

David

[wcronin4]

Thanks to Chris (Minno) for his waste water system diagram. Chris - I view your diagram as big league, and my feeble attempts at a diagram as sandlot. I am continually impressed with the quality of work you both do. I gives me something to work toward.

Thanks to my3sonsdad for the suggestion of the ProSet trap. I watched the video and it is very cool the way it works.

Thanks to Bubba for the Hepvo drain suggestion. I had seen this written up before and totally forgot about them. And yes that might work.

Between the ProSet and Hepvo products there is a solution to the p-trap issue.

David - I can now see how your tanks are arranged and it raises several questions.

It looks to me that you are venting the new gray tank from the street side of the camper. Is this where the original vent stack penetrated the roof, or do you have to move it to accommodate the new gray tank?

When you ran your pipe from the new gray tank from the compartment behind the black tank, when you came through the cross member, did you go through the cross member, or through it. Did you have to modify the cross member to maintain enough fall for the tank to empty properly?

It appears that you installed your own vent, inlet pipes and toilet flange into the black tank. If I'm reading your posts properly, you used a hole saw to cut through the subfloor, then the right-sized hole saw into the tank. Then you inserted the proper fitting. What is not clear to me is how you sealed up the tank penetration and pipe that fit into it. Was it Spin-welded? Was some kind of caulk used? I'm not following that part.

Another question has to do with belly pans. You built a frame to support your black tank. Given the measurements of the tank and the size of your supporting metal, it appears that it will be lower than the skid plate. How will you cover this up?

Thanks, David, once again for you willingness to help.

Bill
Keeping Faith

[dbj216]

Hi Bill: I always raise more questions than I answer. I've been that way for a long time. : )

Questions:

1. It looks to me that you are venting the new gray tank from the street side of the camper. Is this where the original vent stack penetrated the roof, or do you have to move it to accommodate the new gray tank?

My trailer has three vent pipes penetrating the roof. The street side vented the black tank. So I tee'd into that vent pipe and vent the "shallow" side of the grey tank.

2. When you ran your pipe from the new gray tank from the compartment behind the black tank, when you came through the cross member, did you go through the cross member. Did you have to modify the cross member to maintain enough fall for the tank to empty properly?

The cross member separating my black tank and my grey tank was used as a "hinge point" for the original tank pans. It is a solid C channel on my trailer. I went through it with my grey drain line. I have adequate slope on the drain line for good drainage of the tank. See photo below.

3. It appears that you installed your own vent, inlet pipes and toilet flange into the black tank. If I'm reading your posts properly, you used a hole saw to cut through the subfloor, then the right-sized hole saw into the tank. Then you inserted the proper fitting. What is not clear to me is how you sealed up the tank penetration and pipe that fit into it. Was it Spin-welded? Was some kind of caulk used? I'm not following that part.

I made all the penetrations in my new black and grey tanks except for the molded in drain bosses. Yep, the first thing is to determine where your toilet will be located, and where your drain pipe will be located. Then hole saw the subfloor. Then mount the tanks. Then drill the tanks on center to the subfloor holes, remove the tanks and hole saw them at the correct size.

I used the rubber grommets to seal my tank penetrations. They are a press fit. They don't leak. And they are much easier than a spin weld. Here is a photo of my rubber grommet in the black tank. The ID of the rubber grommet accepts the OD of a 3" ABS pipe. The pipe is a press fit tight against the hole in the tank.

4. Another question has to do with belly pans. You built a frame to support your black tank. Given the measurements of the tank and the size of your supporting metal, it appears that it will be lower than the skid plate. How will you cover this up?

My trailer tank pans were flush with the frame angle skids welded to the bottom of the frame. My new tanks are about an inch and a half higher above the skid rails than the old tank pans. I plan on using styrofoam insulation covering the bottom of the tanks, and then simply applying belly pan aluminum over that riveted to the frame rails and cross members as usual. I did add an angle iron at the rear of the frame rails to protect the drain manifold, and a angle iron in front of the grey tank to protect it some.

Always happy to help where I can. Or at least explain what I did which is surely different than what others do.

David

[wcronin4]

David in the last picture of your last post the inlet is the same color as the tank. Is this a gromet or something Inca did?

[dbj216]

Good Morning Bill: I'm late on the Forums. I was out working on the Overlander a little bit, light duty only mind you. My back is getting much better thank goodness.

The black tank photo shows the tank and the grommet right after I assembled the two parts. Both parts are black, and I guess in the shop the lighting isn't that good and maybe the flash washed all contrast out.

Here is a link to a Vintage Trailer Supply page where they sell the grommets. If you click around you will find a little briefing on how they work.

And here is a photo of my old Overlander black tank with a failed spin weld of the toilet flange. It appears some previous owner slobbered fiberglass around it the best he could in a failed attempt to stop the leaking. Spin welds fail very, very seldomly. I consider them bullet proof. That said, I have had very good luck with the grommets.

David

https://www.vintagetrailersupply.com...p/vts-2226.htm

[wcronin4]

David - another question. What type of sensors did you use on your tanks?

Bill