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Old 10-05-2010, 09:11 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Dag68 View Post
Wow! That was fun and educational. How was removing the black water tank - how did that come out, were you able to pull it from above?
Black-water tank?
Well now there is an interesting question.
That, has an interesting story attached to it.

The floor in the rear was rotted when I bought the trailer.
The 40 lb Univolt was on top of the rotted floor.
While towing it home the univolt made its way through the floor and started jumping up and down on the already cracked black-water tank.

So there I was peacefully driving down a two lane road, full of excitement about all the new adventures I was going to have with this classic silver lady.
Little did I know, my first adventure was nearer at hand than I realized.

I soon started hearing a loud scraping noise from the back of the trailer.
Well, the brackets that were holding the black-water tank in had also rotted and the whole works was now dragging on the road.

So, to answer your question, my tank came out the bottom.
And, it required no effort at all on my part, all I did was to pick up the pieces.
It was actually the belly pan that was scraping, the tank and univolt were riding along like a couple of kids on a toboggan.

The black-water tank is designed to come out the bottom.
There is no way to pull them from above.
You will have to cut the plastic drain pipes as they are all glued together.

Good luck, and don't be afraid to enjoy those adventures in what ever form they arrive.
To be honest, this one is easier to enjoy now, than it was at the time.
BWH
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Old 10-06-2010, 11:45 AM   #22
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So that's the one-step removal process?
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Old 10-07-2010, 10:51 AM   #23
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More on weights

As I was removing the appliances I weighed them on the bathroom scale to see how much weight I would be saving by replacing them with new more efficient modern ones. I have already purchased all the new appliances so I also know the weight of the new ones.

Here is what I have come up with:

Appliance ________ Old weight _______ New weight

Refrigerator ________ 145 lbs ___________ 95 lbs
Furnace ____________ 50 ______________ 35
Hot water heater ____ 45 ______________ 20
Univolt _____________ 40 _______________ 5
Stove ______________ 80 ______________ 65
Credenza ___________ 55 _______________ ?
Flooring ____________ 75 _______________ ?

Weight saved so far = 170 lbs

The cabinets, closets, overhead cupboards, sinks, and bathroom tub/shower will be cleaned-up and refinished as needed and replaced so there should be no noticeable weight change there. I haven’t decided on the new flooring yet, but was impressed how light-weight the original asbestos floor tiles were. The weight of the seat cushions, curtains, assorted plumbing, lights, etc. should all be similar to original.

I didn’t weigh on the two Gauchos (a little cumbersome to put on a bathroom scale) which will both be replaced by dinettes. I don’t have a good estimate for the weight of the new dinettes either. I will attempt to design and construct the dinettes to be durable, aesthetic (appropriate for a 1965 Airstream) and keep the weight to a minimum. I have noticed that Airstream did exactly this during original construction, and I will follow that philosophy.

Can I get the dry weight below 3,000 lbs?
We’ll see.
BWH
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Old 10-11-2010, 06:07 PM   #24
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How far should I go

Now that the bathroom is out (post#17) I am starting to cut out the rotted section of floor at the very back of the trailer.
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I have made a cut just along the back of the rear-most frame cross member, the one just in front of where the blackwater tank goes.
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The plywood at this point looks to be in good condition in cross section. The frame shows light surface rust in places and original paint in other areas.
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My question is; should I stop here or continue removing the plywood forward to the next frame cross member? That is where the factory separation between pieces of plywood occurs. That joint is where the yellow pencil is lying on the floor in the first two photos. I would be splitting the plywood down the middle of a frame member either way.
Stopping where I am would mean less unbolting of body to frame and a smaller piece of plywood to work into place, but it would mean an additional cross joint in the plywood.
Would it be noticeably stronger if I went forward to the factory joint?
How much extra work would I be getting into?
Thanks for any suggestions.
BWH
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Old 10-11-2010, 07:12 PM   #25
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floor removal

I just pulled the back 4 ft. If you get underneath you'll find the crossmember at the seam is 3/4" less, and there's a piece of 3/4 ply about 4' long and 4" wide on top. This ply "shim" is glued and nailed to the back piece and the next one forward. It's a pain, but probably needed. Good luck
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Old 10-12-2010, 09:39 AM   #26
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I have no practical experience to bring to your question, but just the general thought - you only want to do this once. It'd suck to finish and then discover you were unsatisfied with the results and had to go back in.
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Old 10-12-2010, 01:08 PM   #27
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I am a little late to your Thread, but Welcome to the Forums! Congrats on the '65! Your pictures are seem very familiar to me.

If it were me, I would come back to the factory joint. I would want the extra strength of one less joint. You can also search for a thread about beefing up the rear corners of your frame. Inland Andy has the plans, and they are posted in a thread. I am not near my normal computer, or I would include the link.

My '64 is in rougher shape then yours. I have a picture and process or two on my blog if it helps you at all. '64 and '65 have their differences, but they are still pretty close in design and build.

Keep up the good work!
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Old 10-12-2010, 10:50 PM   #28
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Perhaps you can draw some inspiration and information from this.
It sounds like it is possible to reinforce the joint if you want to go the smaller oiece route.
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Old 10-14-2010, 07:24 PM   #29
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My rear floor plans

Oly10, Dag68, and ts8501, thanks for the suggestions.

It looks like the consensus opinion is to go back to the factory joint.
Once again logic prevails over reluctance (laziness).

What the heck I have to buy a full 4 by 8 sheet of plywood anyway.
Doing that will allow me to access more of the frame to clean it up and put a fresh coat of paint on it.

It will require a front-to-back seam on top of the main frame rail similar to what Tom W. did in this photo. In the photo the narrow street side floor piece is in place and he is using a large piece of cardboard to make a template for the much larger curb side piece.
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I am not planning to completely disassemble the joint between the body, rub-rail, "C" channel, and belly skin which would be needed to clam-shell the back open enough to slide the whole piece in from the side, as I have seen some owners do. If need be I'll weld an extra outrigger support in that area, I see about that when it's opened up.

That corner will be where the original 40 lb Univolt will be replaced by a 5 lb Inteli Power 45 amp converter, so there shouldn’t be any weight issues there.

I have down loaded AIRSTREAM SERVICE BULLETIN # 146 about how to better attach the frame to the body at the back. That looks pretty straight forward since I have full access to the “C” channel and body ribs from the inside. While it is open I plan to beef up several locations along the back and around both corners.

I’ll try to keep the momentum going this weekend and see how far I get.
BWH

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Old 10-14-2010, 08:29 PM   #30
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That sounds like a solid approach and I imagine you'll be happier in the long run.

Are you replacing all the original sub-floor behind the horizontal seam - both sides of the vertical seam or just one? Are you going to do the seam on the street side? Looking at the pics of your rear I'm thinking that your curb side rear floor is solid. The street side looks pretty eroded. Could you put the seam toward the curb side and keep the original sub-floor all the way back on the curb side?
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Old 10-19-2010, 12:11 PM   #31
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Good, Bad and Ugly

Removing the rotted rear floor was by far the ugliest job I've done on this project.
I dropped the belly pan all the way up to the axle. The pop-rivets were either drilled out or the heads were cut off with a pair of flush-cut diagonal-cutters (very fast where you don’t have to worry about a few scratches on the skin). Only one fairly small chipmunk nest, but overall pretty clean. Looking forward from underneath, the frame and original insulation look in great shape.
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The bolts around the perimeter, that hold the “C” channel to the plywood, were cut using a 4 ˝ grinder with a cut-off wheel. Then I crawled underneath. I snapped off the bent tails of the bolts holding the plywood to the frame with a pair of channel-locks, then used the same cut-off wheel/grinder setup to cut the rusted on nuts in half. Lots of rusty dust and hot sparks while lying on my back in a confined area. Yah, that was the ugly part, but the cut-off tool made surprisingly short work of it.
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As Oly10 described in post #25, the rear piece of plywood is attached to the next one forward by a “shim” (splicing-gusset) attached from below. On the ’65 model it is two strips (each about 4 in. by 2 ft.) that spans the joint between the two pieces of plywood subfloor. I wanted to save and use this shim/gusset to install the new floor, so I set the blade depth on my saw to just cut through the subfloor and nibbled away until only the shim was left.
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The bad; the rear street-side corner belly pan (banana wrap) is corroded through, where it rested against the plywood. The “C” channel is also in rough shape around that corner.
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So, my next job will be to remove the rear corner banana wrap and “C” channel and make new ones. In for a penny in for a pound. It actually doesn’t look all that hard, just one more job that I wasn’t planning on.
With those pieces removed I will probably be able to slide the new piece of plywood subfloor into place in one piece. But before I do that I will have to cleanup and paint the frame.
BWH
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Old 10-19-2010, 12:50 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dag68 View Post
Are you replacing all the original sub-floor behind the horizontal seam - both sides of the vertical seam or just one? Are you going to do the seam on the street side? Looking at the pics of your rear I'm thinking that your curb side rear floor is solid. The street side looks pretty eroded. Could you put the seam toward the curb side and keep the original sub-floor all the way back on the curb side?
The entire rear piece of plywood came out. Once I got into demolition mode I just had at it. I was so encouraged by how nice the frame looked forward of the problem area at the very back (first photo in post #31), that I figured if did a little extra work at the back I would end up with a trailer that was in really great shape everywhere.
Here is what it looks like now. This photo is after the whole area was swept and blasted with the garden hose, they never look that clean when you are working on them.
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You can see the shim/gusset sticking out from under the forward floor. Going forward to this factory joint will yield a much stronger finished floor because that shim/gusset adds a lot of extra strength to the joint. The factory did a nice job here.
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Old 10-24-2010, 10:32 PM   #33
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Wow! What a tremendous job. I'm glad that most of your frame and body are looking good. Somehow a chipmunk nest sounds much better than the alternatives. Keep the photos and posts coming!
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Old 10-26-2010, 09:51 AM   #34
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Self Restraint

Would somewhere out there please HELP me;
I need to learn some self restraint. Back in post # 29 I stated:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BWH-Utah View Post
I am not planning to completely disassemble the joint between the body, rub-rail, "C" channel, and belly skin which would be needed to clam-shell the back open enough to slide the whole piece in from the side, as I have seen some owners do.
.............
I’ll try to keep the momentum going this weekend and see how far I get.
BWH
I meant it, honest, I really did mean it. All I wanted was to get in there and patch the hole in the floor and get on with fixing up the fun stuff. Ya know, new counter-tops, new frig, new stove, the stuff you do right before you take your maiden voyage, ya that's where I want to be.

Reality, reality check here, earth to Bronson, that trailer may look like a space ship but you aint blasted off yet.

Getting back to the self restraint I lost some where along the way. Here are photos of where I got last weekend.
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As you can see it all came out! The "C" channel, the rear corner belly skin, everything.
And while I was at it I yanked the top and bottom of the bumper box.
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At this point I went after the surface rust on the frame with power tools and got most of it coated with primer before I was shut down by rain. The wire brush on the 4 1/2 grinder was awesome, it got down to bare metal very quickly. All you had to do was hang on, easier said than done at times. In the hard to reach corners I used a sand-blaster gun that hooked up to the compressor, nothing escaped.

So, that self restraint thing;
Any suggestions, therapist, counseling maybe a shrink?
What should I do?
Is there any hope for me?
Is it a disease that I can be cured of?
Or a "condition" that AA (alumoholics anonymous) can help me with?
Anyone, Anything?
BWH
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Old 10-26-2010, 05:02 PM   #35
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Sounds like a terrible case of Aluminitis. BTW what is that lovely thing parked behind your airstream?
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Old 10-29-2010, 11:12 AM   #36
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Quote:
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BTW what is that lovely thing parked behind your airstream?
Another project.
Oh Lord I do have a disease don't I.

It is a 1955 Chevy 1/2 Pickup (first series);
like the Airstream, pretty much original condition.
Actually it was my daily driver from 1978 until 1995.
I got it with about 150K miles on it, and put on another
100K or so myself, a true joy to drive.
It is waiting for me to retire, so it can have its third incarnation.

The weather is looking good today!
So I am going to try to finish cleaning the old paint and rust off
the frame and bumper and then prime and paint it before I am
shut down for the winter.
BWH
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Old 11-03-2010, 04:50 PM   #37
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Dirty Work is Done

Last weekend I finished the Dirty Work.
I feel like I am over a big hurtle.
The rust and old paint on the back part of the frame are on more.
It succumbed to the relentless assault of the wire-brush and sand-blaster.

Next was to weld up some holes in the top of the bumper that a PO had drilled to mount an extra set of tail lights.
While the welder was out I added a couple of braces to stiffen-up the cross-bar between the frame rails (the one that the back shell bolts to.)
The braces are visible in the photo below.
Then every thing got a coat of Rust-Oleum primer and a coat of black Rust-Oleum top-coat. It will get a second top-coat before final assembly.
That is a job I am very glad is finished!
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Next on the list is to cut and install new rear-corner belly pan pieces. Looks like .025 is the material to use, because it bends into shape more easily than anything thicker.
The C-channel all the way around the back will also be fabricated new. I plan to use .050 (largely because I have some lying around) across the back and .032 around the corners.
The shell will be bolted to the frame using the method Andy from Inland-RV describes in this diagram.

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Since this trailer has an open-channel frame and not a box-frame I won't need weld on the angle-iron tabs. The braces I did weld on end where the inner ends of the "steel plates" in Andie's diagram are bolted on. My plates will be about 8 inches long with well supported through bolts at each end. That, combined with the .050 C-channel, should provide good attachment of the shell to the frame.
Andy, Thanks for your continued excellent advice to all of us out here on how to keep our old treasures alive.
BWH
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Old 11-09-2010, 11:22 PM   #38
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Looks great! Unfortunately I have a lot more damage due to that damn black water tank Hopefully I will get to the tanks soon,but first shell off frame repair!
Good luck I will be watching
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Old 11-10-2010, 03:17 PM   #39
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More Progress

Last weekend I measured, cut and sealed-up the new piece of plywood for the rear floor. I used 5/8" AC exterior glue plywood. The first photo shows the original 5-ply and the new 7-ply boards (both are 5/8"). After cutting to size I sealed it (especially the edges) with three coats of Spar-Varnish. The unfinished spots on the front edge (photo is of the bottom) are where it will be glued to the factory gussets along the front edge.
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I also cut new pieces of aluminum for the C-channel and the two rear corner belly pan pieces. The C-channel strips are 3 1/2" (1" vertical-sides and 1 1/2" across the bottom.) I still need to bend them into the "C" shape, I have a friend that can help me with that. The old pieces of belly skin were used as templates to cut the new ones.
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This coming weekend I hope get it all put back together. I've got stainless steel bolts for around the outside and elevator bolts for the interior. I'll sort out the black-water tank and assorted drains and vents next summer.
BWH
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Old 11-10-2010, 05:30 PM   #40
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inexplicable bumper design

I swiped this name from a thread that Zeppleinium started back in 2008:
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f477...ign-23121.html
His discussion is about early 70's Airstreams, but much of it applies to the 60's Airstreams as well.
And his thread-name is more politically-correct than what I would have come up with on my own (stupid @$$ design).
And to show that some problems never gone away.
Here is a thread of a 1989 bumper leak:
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f36/...lla-66738.html
And to show the factory still hasn't learned, here's a 2007 with the same problem:
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f396...eak-56099.html

Anyway, back to what I found on mine and what I am looking at to fix it so I won't have to revisit this issue for a long time.
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Upper left diagram represents most of the trailer, the part that doesn't leak. Why doesn't it leak? Good flashing design! Water running down the skin continues down the outside of the belly pan. Any roofer will tell you that is the way it's supposed to work.

Upper right diagram represents the original factory design for the back of the mid 60's Airstreams. There is a lot written about proper caulking where the bumper-box lid goes under the back of the trailer and doing a better job of bolting the body (C-channel) through the plywood to the frame. While these are valid secondary lines of defense I contend that GOOD FLASHING DESIGN should be the PRIMARY line of defense.

Lower left diagram is my plan for how to put my rear end back together. Sure I'll still do a good job of bolting the body to the frame, I'll even put a good bead of Vulkem caulk where the bumper box lid will be riveted to the belly-pan-skin (the red line on the diagram). But those two will both be SECONDARY lines of defense. Other advantages I see in this design are that there is no sheet of aluminum under the bottom of the plywood to hold water. Consequently, if water does get in it should dry out more quickly (a third line of defense, good ability to dry out if/when water does get in.) My last line of defense is of course to do a good job of sealing the plywood with penetrating oil base Spar-varnish.

The lower right diagram is an easy fix that follows the factory style but shortens the inner edge of the bumper box lid and extends the belly-pan-skin well inside. This way any water that does enter should drop off the lip at the inner edge of box lid and not make it to the plywood. This was my first idea.

But I now like the LOWER LEFT design the best.

What do you think?
Am I missing anything?
Is there an end in sight?

Thanks much for any input,
BWH
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