Suicide Door Design - What were they thinking?

[Sea-lovers]

Originally Posted by rmkrum

My 22 foot 2007 International CCD has a suicide door that could easily have been hinged the other way without ever hitting the awning support. Dumb. We just don’t open the forward dinette window-ever.

That was the first thing we noticed when looking at this model. It also renders the view out said window useless if the door is open. (We bought it anyway. There were two couples in line behind us who planned to if we didn’t. Nothing makes one want something more than discovering others want it, too.)

[rmkrum]

Where we travel, it’s hot enough that the outside door is usually shut when we are in the dinette. Plus the dogs need security.

[fthopkins]

I've had both. Much rather have the 'suicide' doors. The reason is that I don't have to walk around the door every time I come and go to the front of the trailer, to the truck for extra supplies (back up beers), to the road, to walk the dogs, etc., etc.. But that's just me.

[WhereStream]

Originally Posted by Fixintime

As we were leaving for a 4500 mile family trip in 1969, my mother filmed the ceremonial departure (Dad just went around the block), as soon as he pulled away, the door flung open and it was caught in super-8 history. I don't recall it happening again, but we still laugh about it 50 years later.

That’s a crazy story!

Stuff always goes wrong when the camera’s running.

[WhereStream]

Is this door-opening nightmare a true concern on modern (say, 2017, such as mine) Airstreams?

With two locks, it seems unlikely to open, but I’m still in the low-mileage camp on our 19-footer.

[Scott S]

My family's 1960 Overlander has the suicide door. I have often thought that this was a poor decision on the part of Airstream. It predates ZipDee, so it had nothing to do with the awning arms. But I do think that it had everything to do with the window placement/floor plan. If our door opened the "correct" way then it would hit the jalousy window just to the front of it.

However the door has popped open several times over the decades. The door was fixed and or replaced by Airstream under their lifetime warranty to my grandfather a couple of times. I had a deadbolt installed to keep it from happening to me. Unfortunately it did. The rivets holding the hinges in place broke. The door tilted down far enough that the latch and deadbolt no longer held the door closed. It opened at interstate speeds. Fortunately there was still a fine Airstream dealership open that had the people who knew how to rebuild the broken door! Unfortunately they are now closed, replaced by a big box dealer.

Since then I have installed a hand grab to which I bungee the door knob before moving the trailer.

[skyguyscott]

Originally Posted by WhereStream

Is this door-opening nightmare a true concern on modern (say, 2017, such as mine) Airstreams?

With two locks, it seems unlikely to open, but I’m still in the low-mileage camp on our 19-footer.

Sadly, while rare, it has been known to happen even on newer models with the deadbolt engaged. The trailer flexes and jiggles down the highway. See the link above about the wedge for cheap, easy insurance.

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

Originally Posted by WhereStream

Is this door-opening nightmare a true concern on modern (say, 2017, such as mine) Airstreams?

With two locks, it seems unlikely to open, but I’m still in the low-mileage camp on our 19-footer.

Hi, no. Please read my post number 28.

[moosetags]

Originally Posted by WhereStream

Is this door-opening nightmare a true concern on modern (say, 2017, such as mine) Airstreams?

With two locks, it seems unlikely to open, but I’m still in the low-mileage camp on our 19-footer.

Ditto. You do not have anything to worry about. See my earlier post (#8 in the thread). We spent over 1,300 days on the road with that Airstream. The door did not fly open a single time.

Brian

[skyguyscott]

Well, despite the experiences of those who have never yet had their suicide door fling open with the deadbolt engaged after years of travel, others have had it happen to them.

For example:
https://www.airforums.com/forums/f453...ml#post1799599

Trust me, the door will come open under certain circumstances even with the lock and deadbolt engaged. Cost me over $3,000 to replace the door when it opened going down the highway. I religiously use the notched piece of wood in the door handle now. It is foolproof

And another testifies here: https://www.airforums.com/forums/f453...ml#post1793716

We were warned about the door coming open. Didn't believe it till it happened to ME!!! Last year after stopping for lunch, I locked the trailer and got back on the road. within a half mile of getting on the interstate I looked back to see the door open and something fly out. The interstate was very bumpy and I had just gotten up to speed. We have the dead bolt lock and the door still came open. Jim was able to repair the door after reading the on line posting here about door repair ( big thanks to all who posted, esp. the photos). Door is not flush but it works.

So, yes, the suicide door design, even with the deadbolts added in later model years, still can fail. It fails often enough that "the wedge" has become a storied part of Airstream ownership.



If Airstream was NASA, there would have been congressional inquiries and presidential commissions, and press scrutiny and individual investigations all implicating the damnable design of the suicide door and the poor reasoning that allegedly valued ventilation over safety and fundamental purpose and led to it's adoption and continued existence.

[Belbein]

I think it's amazing that people extrapolate from "it never happened to me" to "it will never happen." But then, there are still people who smoke cigarettes, don't wear helmets on a bike, and don't use seatbelts. [shrug]

[skyguyscott]

To the OP's original question of what was AS thinking when they originally went with a suicide door.

Some here have pointed out, that contrary to popular belief, it was not to make allowances for the awning arms, as AS did not install trailer mounted awnings in those days. Rather it was to avoid the door opening into an open window, or block the window. It was for ventilation.

Perhaps that's true. But then, why do it today? And take a close look at the following AS trailers and the door orientation.

Anyone care to comment on the brilliant engineering on display here, or explain how the clever suicide door design enhances ventilation, or window views, or awnings, or safety, or...?

I don't think you have to be a rocket scientist to see how a forward-opening door would be an improvement all around for these trailers. The mystery is why no-one at AS could see it, or if they could, why they didn't change improve it.

[rmkrum]

Wry grin. Yup. And you can also look at my 2007 22’ International CCD and see plenty of room for a front-opening door to clear the front awning arm.

The old joke about shooting the engineers to build the hardware makes me think they shot them a bit too soon in many cases...

Or, as a colleague of mine once said, “the problem is not with design, it’s execution, and we’re not holding enough of them in the engineering department.”

Cynical bugger that he was, it still made a lot of sense at the time. The engineering department’s sloppy work eventually killed the company.

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

Originally Posted by skyguyscott

Well, despite the experiences of those who have never yet had their suicide door fling open with the deadbolt engaged after years of travel, others have had it happen to them.

For example:
https://www.airforums.com/forums/f453...ml#post1799599

Trust me, the door will come open under certain circumstances even with the lock and deadbolt engaged. Cost me over $3,000 to replace the door when it opened going down the highway. I religiously use the notched piece of wood in the door handle now. It is foolproof

And another testifies here: https://www.airforums.com/forums/f453...ml#post1793716

We were warned about the door coming open. Didn't believe it till it happened to ME!!! Last year after stopping for lunch, I locked the trailer and got back on the road. within a half mile of getting on the interstate I looked back to see the door open and something fly out. The interstate was very bumpy and I had just gotten up to speed. We have the dead bolt lock and the door still came open. Jim was able to repair the door after reading the on line posting here about door repair ( big thanks to all who posted, esp. the photos). Door is not flush but it works.

So, yes, the suicide door design, even with the deadbolts added in later model years, still can fail. It fails often enough that "the wedge" has become a storied part of Airstream ownership.



If Airstream was NASA, there would have been congressional inquiries and presidential commissions, and press scrutiny and individual investigations all implicating the damnable design of the suicide door and the poor reasoning that allegedly valued ventilation over safety and fundamental purpose and led to it's adoption and continued existence.

Hi, I can't get your links to work. Please describe what is considered a newer model. Until then I will have to be a non-believer that an Airstream with the claw type latch and even with the deadbolt locked that a door fell open on the road.

[66Overlander]

Originally Posted by skyguyscott

To the OP's original question of what was AS thinking when they originally went with a suicide door.

Some here have pointed out, that contrary to popular belief, it was not to make allowances for the awning arms, as AS did not install trailer mounted awnings in those days. Rather it was to avoid the door opening into an open window, or block the window. It was for ventilation.

Perhaps that's true. But then, why do it today? And take a close look at the following AS trailers and the door orientation.

Anyone care to comment on the brilliant engineering on display here, or explain how the clever suicide door design enhances ventilation, or window views, or awnings, or safety, or...?

I don't think you have to be a rocket scientist to see how a forward-opening door would be an improvement all around for these trailers. The mystery is why no-one at AS could see it, or if they could, why they didn't change improve it.

I cannot explain the decision on the 20-footer other than perhaps they thought a latched open door would provide shade to the back of the fridge compartment improving it's operation when in a sunny location (but that's likely giving them more credit than is warranted).

On the 30' FB Bunkhouse photos you provided a non-suicide door would hit the open window sash of the window forward of the door, though the spacing is wider apart than on other models.

As I previously noted, crashing into the window froward of the door has been the primary concern since Airstream started using suicide doors in the late 1940s or early 1950s, though awning arms became another consideration in more recent decades. There have been unexplained deviations from this rational as well as a variety of Airstream models that did not use a suicide door over the decades. Why will always be open to speculation as I am sure Airstream will not post an explanation on AirForums.

[WhereStream]

OK, convinced me.

Anyone have a template for a wedge?

[skyguyscott]

Here is a link to an article on this site regarding making the wedge:

http://www.airstreamcentral.com/arti...tch/Page1.html

Guys, here is another typed out link to the quoted entries above, but there are many others peppered throughout this site:
https://www.airforums.com/forums/f45...ml#post1799599
and earlier in that very same thread:
https://www.airforums.com/forums/f45...ml#post1793716

Yes, in the bunkhouse above, a forward opening door would impinge on the forward window, but as it is, it totally blocks the window directly aft, so pick your poison, or better yet, simply make the forward window a few inches more narrow, for one obvious solution. Or if the bean counters balk at another custom SKU, use an existing one, like the forward window pictured below:


This approach at least makes it appear AS is paying attention to the product and how it's used, and that they understand basic physics.

I suspect the reason for installing the suicide doors on the 20' and 30' in the post above is simply a classic example of production inertia. Everyone is too busy slapping them together to notice the inane result, or too battle-weary to go through an arduous (and perhaps risky) process of pointing it out.

You'll note the the picture above, the forward opening door does impinge on the window next to it (sigh) but at least it won't be torn off when the latch fails in transit, which seems to me to be the better, wiser, more intelligent choice. Better yet would be to modify the floor plans so you could have your windows, ventilation, views and a safe door.

[Hittenstiehl]

From the forum years ago. You slide it in, in this orientation then turn it so the indent I'd facing you so it wedges inself in.

[Belbein]

Originally Posted by WhereStream

Anyone have a template for a wedge?

Of course the templates are quite nice and the wedges can be--should be--quite a work of art. I'm imagining a nice, highly figured bit of mesquite from the Republic of Texas Hill Country, french polished to a deep shine. But if you want something that you can use until you find the right wood, cut it properly, sand it through 60 grit, 80 grit, 120 grit, 220 grit, 800 grit, then varnish it to a high gloss ... if you want something that you can use right now: Get one or two of those isoceles-triangular door stops, duct tape them together until the fat ends will secure in the outer grab handel, drill a hole through them so you can secure them to the outer grab handle with a tether, and voila! Good to go. If you use silver duct tape it actually matches the trailer! Took me maybe 5 minutes.



(I use the tether to hang the thing from the rear view mirror of my truck when we are stopped. I don't want someone securing me in the trailer when I'm inside, and I don't want to forget it when I'm ready to hit the road.)

[Bill M.]

The door coming open is a problem. I doubt if it matters which way the door swings. The door needs to stay closed. When the left swinging door opens it then latches open so it does not bounce around. Check the door and latching and decide what you need to do. My added on deadbolt is long enough to hold the door even with flexing.