Trailer Automaton - Market Research

[remcolent]

(1) a (aftermarket) ABS system on the trailer.
As the brakes are already electric it is not to complicated to limit the curent on the magnets when the wheel locks up.

(2) Sway detecting, I have experianced that sway starts slowely and when it is noticed than its easy to controll.
When the first little sqay is not or to late noticed things get out of control real easy.
It's seems not to complicated to build a simple electronic device that detect this in a real early stage.
And maby even aply the brakes when heavy sway is detected.

(3) Speed sencitive sway controll.
Driving slow and making sharp turns we do not need/want sway controll.
On highway speed A verry stiff sway controll would be good.
Maby someting like the speed sencitve shock but than as sway controll is possible.

(4) Intergrated backup camera.
On campgrounds are playing kids.
Playing kids do not pay any atention to trafic.
When backing up in a camping spot alone you can not see the kid that has just has fallen of his bike.


Remco

[Airslide]

Remco.. those would be great features that could really help a newbie not feel so intimidated when pulling one of these expensive investments..

[safari57]

Don

I know how passionate people get about wanting more technology and then more to leverage everything to the greatest potential it can be. The problem is, it never ends, and things like laptop access and diagnostics in a campground or when boon docking is suddenly necessary.

I've been there, promoted it for years, lived it for years, taught companies how to do this with their products and to convince their customers that it is the right way to go, and for many it has been successful.

But, guess what, my own personal choice is to stay away from that side of it. It is why my trailers have always been vintage. My tow vehicles have always been vintage. My toys are vintage and then my wife chooses a very high tech and very expensive car and it has been the most effort to maintain out of all our vehicles. Every time the dealer throws it on their computer several hundred dollars disappear and then the repair begins.

Certainly there are areas where technology will enhance our ability to love and enjoy our trailers but for the vast majority of people I know who go camping they are intent on getting away from "it all". That means much of the technology. They realize that there are some things that will function far better in some remote location if it is better designed and that could include some level of additional electronics - but if it breaks out there it better be easy to fix like todays trailers are because we are not out there to sit for hours going through diagnostic routines - we are there to fish, hunt, hike, swim, read or write a book, write emails to friends, family and fellow forums members, sit around the campfire and reminisce, and suck in all that mother nature can provide. If my current trailer happens to break I know exactly what it is likely to be, how to fix or work around it, and I know that in very short order I'll be back doing what I came out to do. A few simple tools, sometimes the assistance of fellow campers, and the great joy of group repair bonding that happens when you ponder a problem, look at it, hold it in your hands, turn it over, scratch your heads, get dirty, fix it, drink several congratulatory cold ones around the campfire, and relive the repair for hours while dinner is slowly cooking on the BBQ is all part of the camping experience. If someone were intent on taking that experience away from me I'd be forced to ask them to move to another camp ground where they can sit on their own, with their laptop, trying to figure out what that diagnostic code REALLY means, why it happened just as they needed it to work and what a work around might be and what codes to use, how the heck are they going to fix it manually since they don't have spare electronic components, does anyone else in the campground even know how to turn on a computer to help - well, you get the picture. All exaggerations of course, but trying to get my point across that the one way is all part of camping, the other is an extension of being at work and having something there break.

So manufacturers can go ahead and complicate the new trailers like crazy but they will be serving a different audience than the people in the camping world I know and love to be a part of.

Barry

[vswingfield]

Originally Posted by C5Don

The kind of system architecture trailers could utilize would simply require that you plug a USB cable into one of the devices in the system into your laptop. If you can connect it to the internet, then remote access is possible. Although I won't disclose too much here, I personally prefer the ability to download a series of diagnostic applications to the end user.

Hi Don,

I think you have some good ideas and I will be following this thread. One thing to consider about this is the number of Mac users on the forums, see http://www.airforums.com/forums/f451...mac-20558.html. Please take the cross platform issues into consideration. I use a Mac at home in my Excella and that's what I would be using.

I too have noticed the unreliability of the black tank gauge in particular. The most reliable one that I use is made by Mag Instruments of Ontario, California http://www.maglite.com/, but the display is certainly not pretty.

[remcolent]

Inside the Trailer.

(1) All the wiring is between the inner and outher panel, dificult to replace, repair or to modify.
It would be more user frendly is all the wiring runs trough the interior in a small housing on the floor on the side.
Prefered the 12 volt and the 110 volt sepatate.
This way repairs and personal mods can be made a lot easyer.

(2) Solar power trickle charger When not using the trailor for a long time the battery's go down.
Now I just hook up the trailor to the house powersuply 1 day a month to charge the battery's.
Just a small solar pannel will keep the battery's up all winter.

(3) Now we have to blow out the waterlines with compresed air for winter storage.
If all waterlines are laid on a slight angle and a drain valve is on the lowest spot it would be a case of just opening the drainvalve and all the taps.

(4) Smoke detectors should have a Bright light, If they go off you are in a trailor where you maby stay only 30 nights a year, in panic you can not find the light switch fast.
When the smoke alarm go of with sound and a bright light you can see where you are.

Just for comfort and for fun

(1) auto darkning windows flip the switch and the windows go black.

(2) Climate controll just set the temp and controll both the heater and AC.

(3) You come back to the trailor at night you open the door and where is the $#@^light swith, why not a small interior light when you open the door, even the cheapes rusian or chinees car has this.

Remco

[lewster]

Let me add a perspective to this from a practicing Master Certified RV Tech who happens to have a Masters Degree in Engineering and works mostly on the larger, equipment and technology laden high end of the motor home spectrum.

The motor home industry is currently involved in serious Can-bus development with integrated componentry, multiplexing and twisted wire pairs. This has been going on for several years. The Silver Leaf monitoring system is the first fairly reliable system to be widely installed in the RV sector. It provides some good monitoring information, from tank levels to tire pressure/temperature readings to water temps in various heating systems, voltage draws and usage, and so forth.

This is a very expensive software driven system which is a nightmare to repair if it goes down......and they DO! I shudder to think of a system like this in a travel trailer.

One of the major problems facing the TT industry, from my perspective, is quality control, especially on assembly. I see it every day in the field, even on the $Million + super busses. One screw or staple thru a wire, cable, twisted multiplex pair, etc can wreak havoc on a system and take countless hours to trace and repair. I've been there. Conduits and hard wire pathways, educated and caring assemblers (sure!), OEMs concerned with the quality of their products and not just the bottom line would go a long way to address a lot of the problems that I see.....but then....I might be out of a job!!! The current thinking in the industry is to get the product out the door and let the dealers deal with them....but the dealers lack the highly trained and motivated staff to accomplish this.

From what I see, I don't think a travel trailer is the proper venue for high technology. Sure, it can be done, but the demographic of most travel trailer users would not buy such a complicated vehicle....IMHO! They want to use their limited time off to go camping in their trailers and enjoy themselves, and be able to fix a problem (like no hot water) without consulting a design engineer.

I see advances in tank monitoring (there ARE accurate system out there but the cost $$$$$), better energy management (load shedding is a fact on most large motor homes...check with Intellitec), better integration of quality solar componentry (too many solar applications, including OEM installations are substandard and not nearly as efficient as they can be), better battery systems, lighting systems, better heat and hot water systems (they are about to hit the market to replace the current old technology) ...etc.

KISS is the way to go in the trailer industry. Technology must be simple to repair and effectively bomb-proof if it is to find acceptance in this crowd.

Another consideration is the techs that must repair this stuff. Many new RV owners have had bad experiences with dealer techs who just are not properly trained or lack the abilities or desire to do a good job. I really can't see them plugging in a lap top to an OBD type data port to diagnose a problem, let alone be able to fix one.

It will take a special breed of new RV tech to be able to handle this type of work, and constant re-training will be necessary to accomplish this. I spend upwards of 40 hours a year trying to stay current with all of the new equipment and developments in this industry. I just don't see the industry as a whole embracing it when they still have persistent and recurring quality control problems with units rolling off the assembly lines. It will take a major catharsis to get it to happen.

[remcolent]

Originally Posted by lewster

One of the major problems facing the TT industry, from my perspective, is quality control, especially on assembly. I see it every day in the field, even on the $Million + super busses. One screw or staple thru a wire, cable, twisted multiplex pair, etc can wreak havoc on a system and take countless hours to trace and repair. I've been there.

Here you have a exelent point.
If I look at my 1984 airstream a pricy product at that time and I see how it is put together.
Its bad realy bad when I compare it to our eurpean trailors like tabert.
I realy like my airstreams with all its problems.
But the people that are building american icons, american dreams that are known all over the word should keep a sharp look at the quality.
I'm ashamed to say that a lot of chinees or rusian made products are better made.

[C5Don]

Vaughan,

On the MAC, there is software that emulates windows on the Mac, thus you can run windows applications. With the type of diagnostic systems we need to go USB to CAN or USB into a device (cheaper) which then goes out CAN. The software, called a driver, to talk to USB will be the issue in a MAC, although I have access to Mac OS8, Mac OS9 and MAC OSX drivers, but don't know if the windows emulator works directly with the driver. When we get there we will have to take a look. We support the PC today, actually with two different USB/CAN devices, one our own and one from another vendor. So I guess it's possible. At maglite all I found was flashlights.

Remco:
Your solar charger is a good idea, but even 10watt panels, in consumer prices, are around $70. The question is, what would people be willing to pay for the charger with various connect/disconnect features needed in this terrible trailer power environment? This "charger" could actually be a device that serves multiple vehicle/break away/charging/power management functions, thus perhaps making it very cost effective since "other stuff" is eliminated with a single box.

Do you mean that trailers don't have a single thermostat? I guess that makes sense, as I have never been in one with AC.

Lew:

I agree, qaulity is job 1, and without it no need to do a product. Relative to KISS, once products are introduced I will let you be the judge. I am aware of some of the work going on for years, but if you know of "any" published specs please let me know whom to contact to get copies. I would be more then happy to review and provide comment, and recommendations for the "missing stuff". I've done this for years and can right to the specifics and hopefully help avoid common pitfalls.

Relative to the tank guaging, assume that problem will be solved. I have it and will clearly "reduce the price point", but this device is much more then a tank guage so that diagnostic issues will not be a problem. One question; Is the display local to the box where you connect the sensors or is it remote? Is the display "wall mount" like a thermostat or is it hidden where ever the sensor interface is mounted?

I actually created some charger sutff that was never used in the final product. I know there are, on some trailers, issues with inverter electical noise, battery switch over to the vehicle for break away usage down the road and some pretty garbage charging systems (or so I am told). On the battery systems, could you be more specific of the problems today as we could clearly solve them if I understood the problem?

Repair should generally not require a PC by plugging in a universal diagnostic tool, but most should be handled through the interface like that used for a tank gauge. We share operator interfaces between different devices on the network all the time so that should not be a problem. I know "traditional device architectures" don't allow this because these devices are usually updated by product specific software, or through special programming software for a specific vendors display device requiring yet another tool. Don't worry, we don't do that, so display sharing of real time data can be performed. Hopefully you will like what you see. After all many people can't change the time on their DVD player and won't even try to diagnose a problem.

Regards,
Don

[bkahler]

Don,

Like you I have 30+ years in factory automation and startup. I've often thought about ways to improve the systems on our motorhome(s) and always end up returning to KISS as Lewster suggested. I think there is a market for what you're attempting to do, whether its going to be found inside Airstream travel trailers is another matter.

The specific areas you can make splash would be systems monitoring and load shedding, done in such a way that its cost effective and easy to maintain. If its difficult to maintain, the first time it fails its going to stay that way due to lact of expertise to repair or lack of dollars or both.

I wish you well in your endeavors and hope that can come up with a system that I'd buy .

Brad

[Frank's Trailer Works]

Interesting thread... though many out there are looking for automation and modernization and the latest greatest technology, I am looking for the direct opposite. I think your thoughts are great for some, but for me all this is getting further from the simplicity I desire. Yes, I have my head in the sand, but I like it simple. I also find that as we advance technologically, we often recede from many of the gains we have have made in the past. Not many out there can do anything for themselves anymore, simple tasks like unclogging a drain require the visit from Joe the plumber. I hope that you get these systems up and running and they are a big success. I think that you will find your market to be the big diesel pushers and the huge RV's where the owners are already in need of such monitoring and alerting and automating. For a guy like me, there is no need at all.

[vswingfield]

Originally Posted by C5Don

Vaughan,

On the MAC, there is software that emulates windows on the Mac, thus you can run windows applications. With the type of diagnostic systems we need to go USB to CAN or USB into a device (cheaper) which then goes out CAN. The software, called a driver, to talk to USB will be the issue in a MAC, although I have access to Mac OS8, Mac OS9 and MAC OSX drivers, but don't know if the windows emulator works directly with the driver. When we get there we will have to take a look. We support the PC today, actually with two different USB/CAN devices, one our own and one from another vendor. So I guess it's possible.

...

Hi Don,

I am aware of the emulators. My point is that according to the poll, forum members seem to be unusually high in the number of Mac owners, at least in the ones that responded to the poll. (Yes, I know that the percentages total to over 105% , but the raw numbers are there, so you could compute the real percentages)

I don't blame you for concentrating on Windows first. That's what I would do too. Just a heads up, that's all. Given the acceptance of USB, that seems like a good idea too; although Ethernet, Wifi, and Bluetooth might be worth consideration down the line. It appears the FireWire (IEEE 1394) is slipping away.

If you look at my interior photos at http://www.airforums.com/photos/brow...d=17830&page=2, you will see that I sit 90 degrees to the built in speakers in my recliner. One thing I would be interested in is alternate speaker systems that would allow me to switch between the ones at each end (better when working in the kitchen or when guest are over) and ones that focus surround sound around my chair. Flexibility would be a big plus. iPhone support would be good too.

Another topic that would be good is home security, as I'm sure you know. As homes have become more integrated, the borders between AV, automation, and security systems have become increasingly blurred. Often the same people do it all.

Also, I know that I have wireless in my trailer, but I would like a plethora of minimum CAT 5e ports throughout the place. Old school I guess.

I will be watching this thread with great interest. You've given me some new ideas and prodded me to get back to work on things I have already planned. If you're ever in the Arkansas area, be sure to get in touch.

Originally Posted by C5Don

... At maglite all I found was flashlights.

...

Regards,
Don

That's what I meant when I said that the display wasn't pretty. I take a flashlight and look down the toilet when I really want to know what the level is. Just a joke, sort of. It works every time, though.

[47WeeWind]

Originally Posted by vswingfield

. . . That's what I meant when I said that the display wasn't pretty. I take a flashlight and look down the toilet when I really want to know what the level is. Just a joke, sort of. It works every time, though.

And although the visuals may make you want to boot , lets hope you never have to reboot after checking your black tank level.

[C5Don]

Vaughan,

The maglight slipping right by me, guess I have been working too hard lately. Relative to CAT5E I see nothing wrong with that, in fact use it in my lab all the time. There are some VERY nice solutions in the wiring area, but I am collecting some information on the "manufactured cost" before I make that decision. When I get ready for some Beta sites will probably be the first time I reveal the wiring approach, or two alternatives.

I did a lot of what is known as "EthernetIP" while at Rockwell, but I am not taking that route due to cost, which is why everyone goes with CAN. Since I am a "real time control" kind of guy, you have to use UDP/IP to do anything good versus TCP/IP for one primary reason; the timeouts on TCP/IP are just too long. Although some of the control problems in a trailer could use ethernet and the lousy timeouts, it's just too expensive. In my line of work, if it takes too long to detect a network fault you kill people or damage equipment, and no on like that. I can go through all those debate, and have many times, but the core devices shall be CAN. Use of an Ethernet to CAN interface would be fine, and those exist, you just would not like the price. Additionally to do "good ethernet" you have to use "good transformers" and not the crap that is in you PC and such, thus again, not for me. But as far as a PC interface it would be OK. And those out there that love ethernet in factory automation I can provide horror story after horror story. It's not when it is implimented properly, but when it is done improperly. People want ethernet because they really want "cheap", so they put in non industrial routers and such, and one power glitch, bad ground and so on any systems go do. In fact, when I identify a "real industrial router" I will let you know. Today you put a label on it and call it industrial and people believe you! Well, off my soap box, but I guess that is what forums are for anyway.

KISS comments of all;

Again, I agree with KISS. When you see "some of the automation stuff" my guess is some of the benefits will move most of you to some "islands of automation", although guess I won't tip my hat just yet. The reason is most of you have some significant problems you don't even know you have, although some have provided some references to the problem. I can't say a lot more as I have a customer whom has a pending solution and thus have to stay silent for now.

Despite trimming bushes, fixing the snow blower and cleaning some gutters of leaves (3 stories up) I was able to update a system spec for your market, which is coming together nicely and is where I am going to start asking some questions. I will post them in single messages to makes answers easier and avoid having some read my soap box commnetaries.

[C5Don]

Load Shedding:

Defintion: Disconnect the primary power consuming load of a device to reduce total current drain on the battery or "current limited" device.

If you draw a schematic, my guess is most of you have a trailer connector that when driving "down to road" receives charge power from the vehicle to the trailer battery. Assume the trailer battery is dead (not unusual). Assume you plug trailer into vehicle sitting in your driveway.

Question 1: Do you want the vehicle battery current to start flowing to the trailer battery or do you want to prevent this flow until the vehicle is started?

Queston 2: Do you want Q1 to be configurable, meaning you can set up the system to only charge when vehicle is running or draw current independent of state of vehicle? (Remember, this takes you one step from KISS).

Question 3: Would you only want the trailer battery to charge when say the supply voltage from vehicle is above 13VDC (normal running vehicle is usually a bit above this level).

Question 4: Would you like the "charge path" to be regulated, meaning operate similar to a battery charger; trickly, cycle, as fast as possible?

Question 5: If the charger system in trailer sees "battery boil off" (I think that is what SAE calls it) where the voltage spikes start getting "real high", do you want the trailer charge path to open? (Probably not seen very often, but the SAE specified voltage transients cost money to protect against.)

END OF CHARGING ISSUES
START OF LOAD SHEDDING

Question 6) How many amps do you want to switch ON and OFF? (7.5A, 10 Amps, ...?

Question 7) Do you prefer "high side" or "low side" switching? This means do you want to turn 12VDC on/off or would you accept "turning ground path on/off"? In general terms, turning ground on/off is cheaper and some consider more robust, but kind of against the US mind set, as we gerally turn power on/off.

Question 8) Do you want to know how much current is flowing to everything all the time, at that point in time, or do you just want to know "about" how much each device usually draws and use that "prior knowledge" to determine what remains on? (Knowing all currents at all times cost a bit more as it requires electronics to perform this task.)

Question 9) For sake of KISS, how would you want to "configure" what turns off when current exceeds threshold;

a) priority of each device where highest prioirity always runs if turned on, then next lower, and so forth until max current draw is reachd, or

b) similar to 9a, except priorities are set based upon time of day,

c) similar to 9a, except priorities are set by selecting "trailer mode" like "cooking", or "sleeping", or "driking" or "....."

d) other?

Question 10) It is assumed that below a certain supply voltage certain things "just won't work" and thus if the voltage is below this level it just would not be able to be turned on. Is this true and is this a desired feature?

Question 11) I would guess you would want to know "time remaining" with the present current draw rate?

Question 12) I would assume a configurable "beep" would occur when you were within a cretain period of time from "lights out", but perhaps not. Would a configurable "beep threshold" be desired?

Question 13) My guess is you would want the user interface to have an "enable/disable" device view to instantly override an previously configured priorities or entired turn off load shedding to easily determine if things are working or if not working due to load shedding?

Queston 14) Although it may be obvious, my guess is such a system would cycle transient loads to keep the current draw at a low level at all times, or stated differently, if things like furnaces, refrigerators and such cycle on/off the system may only allow one to run at a time, where the refrigerator would run for say 5 minues, then the furnace, the refrigerator and so on if max load is exceeded but both devices "want to run"?

Anything I am missing, please advise, as I am looking for "requirements' of such a system.

Regards,
Don

[ROBERT CROSS]

How about refrigerators, cupboards and drawers that the male of the species could find things in.

Now that would be a real help!!

[C5Don]

Additional questions continued;

I probably need to find/purchase a trailer service manual to get more details, but it appears trailers have a common power distribution system, similar to a home, containing both AC distribution and DC distribution. This is good as it makes monitoring and control much easier. Thus the following questions;

Question 15) Load Shedding: For "load shedding" a device could individually monitor the current to each controlled circuit at all times, which means it nearly becomes an electronic fuse, which means it can "shut off" power much faster than a slow blow fuse in series with the control circuit. To monitor each circuit, assume it costs you, the end user from $3.00 to $6.00 per controlled circuit for this individual ciruit monitor feature, and for sake of this discussion assume different size systems are possible, but lets say this circuitry is contained on an 8 circuit device, which means around $32 to $48 for "this option" added to the base device to be able to "see the current" to every load at all times", to help in diagnostics and such. The alternative is "one" current monitor that estimates the current draw from each circuit based upon "prior current" draw when only that circuit is turned on. As an end user, would you be willing to pay an additional $3-6 per circuit to see each individual current?

Question 16) Tank guage: I am trying to determine if the tank level problem is a sensor problem or a problem with the monitoring electronics, as it would probably be preferred to just replace the interface device versus the sensors should it be a problem with the electonics. Does anyone know what "type of sensor technology" is currently used to monitor the black water tank level, as well as the other tanks? Is it pressure, probe, ultrasonic or other?

[vswingfield]

Originally Posted by C5Don

Additional questions continued;

I probably need to find/purchase a trailer service manual to get more details, but it appears trailers have a common power distribution system, similar to a home, containing both AC distribution and DC distribution. This is good as it makes monitoring and control much easier. Thus the following questions;

Good idea. That would help answer a lot of your questions.

Originally Posted by C5Don

Question 16) Tank guage: I am trying to determine if the tank level problem is a sensor problem or a problem with the monitoring electronics, as it would probably be preferred to just replace the interface device versus the sensors should it be a problem with the electronics. Does anyone know what "type of sensor technology" is currently used to monitor the black water tank level, as well as the other tanks? Is it pressure, probe, ultrasonic or other?

The sensor system is pretty crude and prone to getting dirty leading to false readings. Mine reads 3/4 full almost all the time. Hence the MagLight system.

When I get home this evening, I will get you the information from my service manual. If there are drawings, I can shoot a photo and include it.

[vswingfield]

Hi Don,

I photographed the (single) page with information about the sensors and shot a macro of the diagram. Not up to copy stand quality (Illuminated by the Thin-Lite in the galley), but good enough for you to get an idea.

Hope this helps.


P.S. Out of consideration for everyone, there are no photos of the MagLite system display.

[C5Don]

Vaughan,

Obviously the current system, or at least the one you have, uses continuity probes, which is the least expensive way to go, but if "clean" should always work. By all the complaints, they must "coat up" and then don't work. There are some approaches that could "improve" their operation even when coated if the preferred approach is to use the existing sensors and wiring and then replace the measuring electronics. It sounds like there are 4 probes plus the common probe (brown wire).

If I was the user and to solution was to replace the control panel with an improved unit, I would want it to be a direct replacement with the existing device, same size, screw holes and so forth. Since I have not purchased a service manual yet, exactly what does this "control panel" look like, where is it mounted, how are the probe wires connected and is there one control panel for all tanks or one control panel for each tank?

I will have to check the replacement cost of the control panel to determine the target price of a replacement, assuming an application specific device (packaging) was used versus a generic device. Botom line is this problem can be solved and I am wondering is this unique to a certain vintage of Airstream trailers, or all Airstream trailers?

Thanks for the info.
Regards,
Don

[vswingfield]

Originally Posted by C5Don

...
If I was the user and to solution was to replace the control panel with an improved unit, I would want it to be a direct replacement with the existing device, same size, screw holes and so forth. Since I have not purchased a service manual yet, exactly what does this "control panel" look like, where is it mounted, how are the probe wires connected and is there one control panel for all tanks or one control panel for each tank?

I will have to check the replacement cost of the control panel to determine the target price of a replacement, assuming an application specific device (packaging) was used versus a generic device. Botom line is this problem can be solved and I am wondering is this unique to a certain vintage of Airstream trailers, or all Airstream trailers?

Thanks for the info.
Regards,
Don

Hi Don,

That's going to be your biggest problem. The design and location of control panels varies wildly from model to model and by year. If you look at the top of this photo http://airforums.com/photos/showimag...0&userid=17830. the black device with the red LED clock is the control panel in my ’83 Excella. When you press a rocker switch Empty, ¼, ½, ¾, and/or Full are light from behind. In my ’67 Trade Wind the Control Panel is located over the refrigerator on the street side across from the door. Analog with surface mount lights.

I will get you photos later, but this is going to be a huge problem. One size is not going to fit all.

If you could find a rally, it would really be worth your while to go look at a variety of trailers and motorhomes to get an idea what you are up against.