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Old 04-27-2022, 09:41 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by gypsydad View Post
Few more thoughts from all this speculation; 1) charging stations cost money; like the phone booth analogy, I expect someday, the "dinosaur" will become extinct/replaced by next new charging technology. Fact- we are a long way from "convenience" while towing an AS to our National or State Park campgrounds, if the TV is an EV. 2) private campgrounds for charging your EV, may seem like the answer when towing your AS, but doubt it will stay "free" once the owners see 35% or more patrons towing with EV's. 3) why does it seem some folks here "enjoy" loosing our freedoms and benefits of the ICE (which most of us already own) to "rush" toward spending more $$ on an EV which does not/will not equate for many years to what we have today to tow our AS's? I do appreciate technology; it just seems "some" folks are so polarized to making this change to EV only, they don't care who is affected or what it costs.
1) They said EVs couldn't do long distance travel not so long ago. It's regularly done today. And it can be a pleasurable experience. Towing will be the same shortly.

2) Surely no one has expectation of free. I will gladly pay for the opportunity and convenience. Couldn't be worse than paying $150 for the privilege to burn dinosaurs to go 300 miles today? (CA gas is $5.50/gal+)

3) Maybe sustainability doesn't appeal to you. But maybe torque and performance does? Meet the new kid on the block re-defining torque. It starts at 0 RPM. And happens like now. No lag, no spool, no NVH, nor emissions.

Don't get me wrong. I love and will keep at least a couple of my ICE cars for a long time to come, if only for the period correct experience. And boy is it an experience. But these new fangled things have some really really cool things going for it. Embrace them all.
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Old 04-27-2022, 10:28 PM   #142
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We are now 22 years into the 21st century and we are now in the process of changing transportation propulsion from hydrocarbon fuel to electric .

100 years ago we were changing transportation propulsion from animal to hydrocarbon .

The parallel is change happens and there’s the rub some people don’t like change and they will try tooth and nail to prevent change .

But like it or not change will happen .

We are in it now .
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Old 04-28-2022, 09:54 AM   #143
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1) They said EVs couldn't do long distance travel not so long ago. It's regularly done today. And it can be a pleasurable experience. Towing will be the same shortly.

2) Surely no one has expectation of free. I will gladly pay for the opportunity and convenience. Couldn't be worse than paying $150 for the privilege to burn dinosaurs to go 300 miles today? (CA gas is $5.50/gal+)

Pteck- many arguments on this...inconvenience and range, "are" primary issues I hear from many folks who own EV's, including my son and son in law, who travel regularly to/from Austin/Dallas. You may have missed these discussions (?), but primary concerns to me on the "Airstream Forum" here, include limited routes of travel and camping destinations taking my AS with a "capable" TV; not how much money I saved in fuel... (Many Glacier, Two Medicine, Tetons, Yellowstone, Hungry Horse, etc.) We are a long way from EV convenience charging...what charging is out there is scarce; some take 4 hours with limited chargers to share. Not like fueling up your ICE. Cost of ICE fuel does not have to be high $$ and can be drastically reduced, as we all know recent years experience.

3) Maybe sustainability doesn't appeal to you. But maybe torque and performance does? Meet the new kid on the block re-defining torque. It starts at 0 RPM. And happens like now. No lag, no spool, no NVH, nor emissions.

I have all the torque and performance I need with my 6.7L F250, thank you! When an EV provides the payload/performance equal to or better than my TV, and does not cost me "mucho bucks" to upgrade, like I said, I am all ears...just don't be so quick to jump on the bandwagon "forcing" this change on folks...as was said earlier, there is no reason both technologies can't continue to co-exist and let the market decide which works best. Those who continue to beat the "we have to change now" drum, have not adequately addressed the environmental concerns of building EV's; nor have they addressed the rest of the world's disregard for the environment being equal to US, right? But, they continue to pound away as to why their beliefs are more important than others...and away we go!


Don't get me wrong. I love and will keep at least a couple of my ICE cars for a long time to come, if only for the period correct experience. And boy is it an experience. But these new fangled things have some really really cool things going for it. Embrace them all.
And you can keep your ICE TV while pushing the EV...I understand.
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Old 04-28-2022, 10:15 AM   #144
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Here is my thinking. Essentially, that it isn't about us individually and our personal preferences for different forms of propulsion.

The consequences of climate change will have an enormous negative effect on society. Those consequences will result in far less freedom, huge financial impacts, and far less security. For all of us. But especially for our children and grandchildren.

Figuring out how to maintain a transportation system (including mass transit, vehicles, trucks, etc) by switching away from fossil fuels to something more sustainable is a way of helping to ensure our collective freedom, and security, and will result in fewer negative financial effects overall.

What we know is that the status quo is not an option. It isn't like this is about carrying on with ICE vehicles or switching to EVs. That is missing the point of why we are switching.

It is precisely our concern for people being affected, including marginalized populations who will be disproportionately affected, that causes some of us to be supportive of the change away from ICE vehicles.
Why isn't the "status quo" an "option" while we work thru a more efficient and climate friendly approach to this technology? This is the Airstream Forum, right? I think we "owners" are all affected by decisions which limit our ability to use our Airstream or restrict our freedoms. Some "pioneers" are attempting to use existing EV technology to tow, and I am watching, for sure. I am all for embracing better EVTV solutions when available, but not anxious to spend a bunch of $$ nor am I happy about folks trying to force this change till the cost/charging issues associated with towing are solved.
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Old 04-28-2022, 10:27 AM   #145
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We are now 22 years into the 21st century and we are now in the process of changing transportation propulsion from hydrocarbon fuel to electric .

100 years ago we were changing transportation propulsion from animal to hydrocarbon .

The parallel is change happens and there’s the rub some people don’t like change and they will try tooth and nail to prevent change .

But like it or not change will happen .

We are in it now .

Well folks, that about covers it.

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Old 04-28-2022, 10:54 AM   #146
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The irony here being that there appears to be a link between fossil fuel usage and more intense hurricane seasons.
You could find the same correlation between the amount of dog poop and intense hurricane seasons. So; obviously you need to reduce the amount of dog poop by change of dog diet.
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Old 04-28-2022, 11:02 AM   #147
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Do you work for big oil?
Could you define "Big Oil"? Actually there's probably more independent owners and workers and lease holders in small operations than "Big Oil". These are the people that are hurt by fluctuating oil prices, barely hanging on at $80 oil, went bankrupt when the price went below, went to other jobs so now there's a lack of skilled workers that know which valve to throw when things go wrong. Instead of the gobment "experts" that were on board and didn't shut the right valve on the Gulf oil spill a few years ago.
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Old 04-28-2022, 11:27 AM   #148
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I have all the torque and performance I need with my 6.7L F250, thank you!
Enough? Are you sure?
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Old 04-28-2022, 11:29 AM   #149
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You could find the same correlation between the amount of dog poop and intense hurricane seasons.
No, you couldn't. There's compelling evidence for the fact that global warming caused by climate change leads to more extreme weather events. There is absolutely no evidence that dog poop affects hurricanes.

Maybe you're joking (are you?), but unfortunately your absurd example has only slightly less validity than some of the other "hypotheses" concerning why human caused climate change isn't real.
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Old 04-28-2022, 11:41 AM   #150
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Instead of the gobment "experts" that were on board and didn't shut the right valve on the Gulf oil spill a few years ago.
That's inaccurate, assuming you are referring to Deepwater Horizon. The leak at DH in 2010 was caused by a surge of natural gas which blasted through a faulty concrete cap installed by Haliburton. When BP tried to activate the blowout protector on the well it malfunctioned and since the wellhead was almost a mile below the surface this made subsequent efforts to cap the well extremely difficult.

Government "experts" had nothing to do with "shutting the right valve".
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Old 04-28-2022, 02:23 PM   #151
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Why isn't the "status quo" an option while we work thru a more efficient and climate friendly approach to this technology? This is the Airstream Forum, right? I think we owners are all affected by decisions which limit our ability to use our Airstream or restrict our freedoms. Some pioneers are attempting to use existing EV technology to tow, and I am watching, for sure. I am all for embracing better EVTV solutions when available, but not anxious to spend a bunch of $$ nor am I happy about folks trying to force this change till the cost/charging issues associated with towing are solved.
Because we are continuing to increase climate change unnecessarily when we choose not to act.

Because your 6.7 diesel is emitting 22.5 lbs of CO2 for every gallon of diesel you burn in it. Multiply it out to see the impact. If that was garbage thrown out your window on to the side of the road, at 10 mpg that would equate to 2.25 lbs of trash discarded alongside every mile of roadway you travel. The only reason that there isn't a revolution is because we can't see the pollution. But that doesn't mean it isn't real.

Because even those who don't understand or accept the scientific consensus on what we are doing should understand the precautionary principle.

Because economic studies show that the longer we delay, the more severe impacts we will experience, and the more it will cost us as a society. The most cost effective thing we can do is act sooner. Waiting isn't free, it is simply pushing us to much higher costs for future remediation.

Once again, nobody has suggested mandates that stop you from towing your Airstream. Nobody has suggested they are going to pry your truck keys from your fingers. They don't want your truck. You can keep using it. You should certainly expect to pay a lot more for the privilege of doing so, but that is entirely your choice.
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Old 04-28-2022, 03:06 PM   #152
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I'm spending $50-150 at every fuel stop (depending on how empty the tank is). If private campgrounds tack on $25 for an EV charging plug option, and I'm full up by the morning, that's one less stop while towing. It sounds like an improvement.
No one is telling the EV crowd to NOT buy an EV.

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It's the "free market," you never loose your "freedom," but sometimes you end up owning a Betamax.
From a technical standpoint, the Sony Betamax is a superior system because the tape wound all the way around the drum, providing twice the contact of heads from the VHS. What killed the Betamax is when the porn industry decided to go VHS and, well, the rest is history.
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Old 04-28-2022, 03:13 PM   #153
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assuming you are referring to Deepwater Horizon. The leak at DH in 2010 was caused by a surge of natural gas which blasted through a faulty concrete cap installed by Haliburton. When BP tried to activate the blowout protector on the well it malfunctioned and since the wellhead was almost a mile below the surface this made subsequent efforts to cap the well extremely difficult.
Why was the Deepwater Horizon in 5,000' of gulf water?
Because the government had stopped issuing permits to drill in shallower water where a repair would be orders of magnitude easier.
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Old 04-28-2022, 06:13 PM   #154
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Why was the Deepwater Horizon in 5,000' of gulf water?
Because the government had stopped issuing permits to drill in shallower water where a repair would be orders of magnitude easier.
No, because that's where the oil was. Deep water oil wells have become very common and are drilled all over the world in places where US permitting is irrelevant.

In the case of Deepwater Horizon the well was in an area known as the Macondo Prospect and drilling was done there because there was an expectation of high yields.

There are reasons why oil companies aren't allowed to drill just anywhere and personally I'm thankful those rules exist. Haliburton and BP knew the rules, chose to drill where they did, promised they would do it safely, and then screwed up monumentally. EOS.
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Old 04-28-2022, 08:40 PM   #155
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another fun one for consideration

...from someone who knows more about the CO2 molecule than almost anyone else on the planet:

https://co2coalition.org/media/clint...-in-amsterdam/

By the way, Teslas are not rare in even Alaska these days. Saw a few today in Fairbanks. Electricity hereabouts is coal and natural gas, and is well into double digits per KWh. There is some hydro around here, but not much. Kodiak slayed the oil beast with a ridgeline full of turbines, and it is very cost effective for them, rather than importing liquid fuel. Case by case the tech can work.

Also passed a test solar farm north of Wasilla. Interested to see how it shakes out. The brush piles of the greenery that used to process CO2 now lying in heaps in the corners of the acreage are not a good look - and stuff grows slowly here. And the solar gain isn't much for part of the year. Kudos for the try; time will tell.
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Old 04-29-2022, 12:12 AM   #156
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...from someone who knows more about the CO2 molecule than almost anyone else on the planet:
Once again, you've referenced one of the 1% of scientists who believe that human activity isn't the primary cause of climate change. His supposed superior knowledge about the CO2 molecule notwithstanding, William Happer is a very controversial figure in the climate debates, not least because while he is an atomic physicist, he has had no training as a climatologist. He has been paid by coal companies to testify on their behalf in court and receives funding from a number of conservative foundations. I just always find it interesting to follow the money.

There is more stuff about him on-line that gives me pause. I won't go into all of it; people can do a search on their own if they're interested. I was struck by a couple of his quotes, though. In 2014 he stated that the "demonization of carbon dioxide is just like the demonization of the poor Jews under Hitler". And in 2016 when speaking about global warming he stated, "most of the warming has probably been due to natural causes." (emphasis added) Most and probably, Jews and Hitler; just the kind of precision one expects from a scientist.
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Old 04-29-2022, 07:59 AM   #157
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Don, by "old thinking" I was referring specifically to the idea that climate change could only be caused over millions of years by natural forces. That is no longer true since humans obviously possess the power to change the climate almost immediately via a worldwide nuclear exchange or, as science and our own experiences are telling us daily, a little more slowly by poisoning the environment with huge quantities of greenhouse gas.

No one is saying it's a crime to express an opposing hypothesis but if the opposing hypothesis doesn't make sense, it will be challenged. Saying that something has always been a certain way for millions of years isn't a starting point for further investigation, the very definition of a hypothesis. If there is a credible hypothesis which explains all of the observable data around climate change, besides the one put forward by 99% of climate scientists, I've yet to see it.

Believing in something for which there is ample data, evidence and overwhelming consensus among the scientific community, even if it's something you wish wasn't true, is not hive mind. It's called being realistic. On the other hand, believing in something for which there is little evidence but just happens to fit a preferred world view is a lot closer to what I perceive as hive mind.


The sky is falling doomsday climate change prophecies have been proven spectacularly wrong time and time again. Having a consensus forms only political based agendas, not scientific advancement.
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Old 04-29-2022, 09:20 AM   #158
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Because we are continuing to increase climate change unnecessarily when we choose not to act.

Because your 6.7 diesel is emitting 22.5 lbs of CO2 for every gallon of diesel you burn in it. Multiply it out to see the impact. If that was garbage thrown out your window on to the side of the road, at 10 mpg that would equate to 2.25 lbs of trash discarded alongside every mile of roadway you travel. The only reason that there isn't a revolution is because we can't see the pollution. But that doesn't mean it isn't real.

Because even those who don't understand or accept the scientific consensus on what we are doing should understand the precautionary principle.

Because economic studies show that the longer we delay, the more severe impacts we will experience, and the more it will cost us as a society. The most cost effective thing we can do is act sooner. Waiting isn't free, it is simply pushing us to much higher costs for future remediation.

Once again, nobody has suggested mandates that stop you from towing your Airstream. Nobody has suggested they are going to pry your truck keys from your fingers. They don't want your truck. You can keep using it. You should certainly expect to pay a lot more for the privilege of doing so, but that is entirely your choice.
JCL- Who's the "we" you refer to; you don't own an Airstream so likely hard for you to understand the point; your not affected by any mandates ending ICE production; yes, these are in the works in CA, Europe, and ??

"Sales of new cars and vans that produce carbon emissions will be banned as of 2035, proposals tabled by the European Commission revealed on Wednesday (14 July), a move which all but guarantees that the era of the internal combustion engine (ICE) is drawing to a close in the EU."

As for your comments "allowing" me to keep my truck; or expecting to pay a little more for the "privilege of doing so"...hard for someone to understand who doesn't own an Airstream or other TT, and a TV combination. Just to remind, we had fuel prices substantially lower 2 years ago, by taking advantage of our "natural resources" in the US, eliminating the need for importing oil. Penalizing the economy by overcharging the majority of us using ICE's, causing us to import "dirtier" oil than we produce here in US, just doesn't make any sense to sensible people, IMHO...get an Airstream, enjoy North America, and perhaps you will understand where I am coming from.
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Old 04-29-2022, 09:31 AM   #159
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This thread has run its course and is now closed. Thanks to all those who have posted within the community guidelines.
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