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02-09-2017, 01:06 PM
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#41
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Rivet Master
2007 Interstate
Normal
, Illinois
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 18,082
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Quote:
Originally Posted by streaminwild
Maggie, One of the occurrences I read, involved a motocross racer traveling in his motorhome to a race. Looking for webpage now. After the almost financial collapse of 2007, I tried to get my cash out of bank, the bank would only give me 1,500 per day. It took me 2 months to get most of it out. Then, I wanted to open a safe deposit box to store the cash...that's illegal. It's their money until you take it out.
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Okay, even if there are two.
It's not a general problem for RV'ers, but you apparently wanted this discussion and airing of this here, so now you have it.
Maggie
__________________
🏡 🚐 Cherish and appreciate those you love. This moment could be your last.🌹🐚
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02-09-2017, 01:09 PM
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#42
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2 Rivet Member
1964 22' Safari
Tulsa
, Oklahoma
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 57
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This happened in Oklahoma and explains the problem very well.
The act of carrying money - legal currency - has become justification for seizure.
I don't for a second believe this is something most RVers have to worry about, but to suggest civil forfeiture abuse isn't real is to ignore a growing threat to liberty in the name of security.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.aeae613927f3
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02-09-2017, 01:19 PM
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#43
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Rivet Master
1999 30' Excella 1000
small town
, Maryland
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 802
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily&Me
Okay, even if there are two.
It's not a general problem for RV'ers, but you apparently wanted this discussion and airing of this here, so now you have it.
Maggie
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It's not just for traveling expenses, also for buying used RV's. Just informing people of this law, so they can use a alternate way to travel, or pay for used Airstream. If this thread saves one person from confiscation, it will be worth it. This messenger is now dead.... Sorry about this info everyone. Mods you can close this thread if you want.
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02-09-2017, 01:28 PM
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#44
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2 Rivet Member
2015 25' FB International
my
, house
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 86
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Found this on a page discussing the position of the ACLU on this matter. Agree with them or not, which I frequently do not, cash forfeiture happens often enough that they are addressing it.
A debate has long been underway about the circumstances under which the government may examine and even seize the property of American citizens under a collection of laws commonly described as “Civil Asset Forfeiture.” A variety of state and federal laws allow law enforcement agents to seize an individual’s assets for a number of reasons, and critics of such laws assert reclaiming assets seized in such a fashion is next to impossible. The American Civil Liberties Union (who opposes the practice) described civil asset forfeiture on a page about the subject:
Every year, federal and state law enforcement agents seize millions of dollars from civilians during traffic stops, simply by asserting that they believe the money is connected to some illegal activity and without ever pursuing criminal charges. Under federal law and the laws of most states, they are entitled to keep most (and sometimes all) of the money and property they seize.
I use cash almost exclusively, and this is definitely something to be aware of.
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02-09-2017, 01:51 PM
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#45
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Rivet Master
2009 27' FB Flying Cloud
1982 31' International
1991 35' Airstream 350
Jay
, Oklahoma
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,706
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKB_SATX
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As does the ACLU.
https://www.aclu.org/issues/criminal...rfeiture-abuse
Regards,
JD
__________________
Jeff & Cindy
'09 27FB Flying Cloud;'82 31 International
'91 350 LE MH; '21 Interstate 24GT
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02-09-2017, 02:13 PM
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#46
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Mantua
, Ohio
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 7,062
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuvite-F
Lily, I realize that your late husband was a law enforcement officer and you no doubt have many friends in that field, but the fact is that the civil forfeiture laws have been abused many times and in many jurisdictions.
First, everyone needs to understand that that the civil forfeiture law allows law enforcement to confiscate--and KEEP--any property believed to be the proceeds of a criminal enterprise without charging--or even arresting--the individual from whom it was confiscated. It is incumbent on the victim to sue in civil court (hence the term "civil forfeiture") to get his property back. This has proven to be very profitable to various governments and some have been unable to resist.
The libertarian Cato Institute has done a lot of studies on the abuses of civil forfeiture. Here's a link to 227 of them:
https://find.cato.org/search?q=civil...web_collection
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I think Lilly is her dog.
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02-09-2017, 02:14 PM
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#47
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Rivet Master
2007 Interstate
League City
, Texas
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily&Me
RV'ers do not generally need to fear being stopped, asked how much cash they have, and having it unreasonably taken....
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It depends on the location. Our historical travels in the Big Bend region of Texas have resulted in us being stopped and asked questions on 100% of trips taken to date. We have yet to go out there in our Interstate, but I'm sure that will be instructive.
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02-09-2017, 02:23 PM
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#48
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Rivet Master
2007 Interstate
Normal
, Illinois
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 18,082
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avionstream
I think Lilly is her dog.
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Lily is the dog, Me is...me.
My late husband was not law enforcement, he was a child abuse investigator...no arrest powers, tho those of protective custody of minors under certain conditions.
Maggie
__________________
🏡 🚐 Cherish and appreciate those you love. This moment could be your last.🌹🐚
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02-09-2017, 02:23 PM
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#49
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Rivet Master
1962 28' Ambassador
1961 19' Globetrotter
1962 26' Overlander
Mesa
, Arizona
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 5,996
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Lily is married.🤔
Congratulations....Puppies 🐕 anytime soon.
__________________
Hittenstiehl
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02-09-2017, 02:27 PM
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#50
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Rivet Master
2007 Interstate
Normal
, Illinois
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 18,082
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No-no...my Lily has been surgically altered.
There will be no puppies.
Maggie
__________________
🏡 🚐 Cherish and appreciate those you love. This moment could be your last.🌹🐚
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02-09-2017, 02:39 PM
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#51
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Rivet Master
2014 23' Flying Cloud
Fair Oaks
, California
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 717
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There should be no law granting the authority to law enforcement organizations to keep seized property if charges were dismissed or there was no conviction. I'm surprised this is even an issue. Throughout our legal history, countless cases have been dismissed before trial because there wasn't enough evidence to go to trial. Were many of these people guilty? No doubt. Were they jailed or fined anyway, because they "might" be guilty? Of course not! Our system is innocent until proven guilty, which all LEO's and district attorneys well understand. Why is there an exception for confiscation of property believed to have been used in a criminal enterprise without proof?
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02-09-2017, 02:41 PM
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#52
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Rivet Master
2007 Interstate
League City
, Texas
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,139
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Humor aside, when we talk about topics like this, we have to make allowances for the differences in peoples' experiences and the resulting expectations. Not to veer the thread into culture warring territory, which is a full-on disaster for any forum, but I'm a good example. I'm a visibly conservative middle-aged snow white woman with a spotless legal record - the last person on earth anyone would expect to run into unwarranted friction with any authorities for any reason. But my biological child is a different race and doesn't visibly resemble me, so there have been times when I know I've been under suspicion of either using the kid for prostitution or as a drug mule. I have vivid memories of the two of us being hauled into a back room and the authorities stripping my young teenage daughter down to her brassiere to look for what should not be on her body (and of course there was nothing). So when people ask me if something like a civil forfeiture investigation COULD possibly happen to someone like me, my answer is Oh Hell Yes. Is it LIKELY to happen? No. But I've seen what can transpire when one does not fit an expected American citizen profile.
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02-09-2017, 03:09 PM
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#53
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Rivet Puller
2003 28' Safari S/O
Atlanta Burbs
, Georgia
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,006
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New age legal reasoning
Quote:
Originally Posted by McDave
Why is there an exception for confiscation of property believed to have been used in a criminal enterprise without proof?
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In civil asset forfeiture cases the government proceeds directly against the property, not the individual. Consequently, an individual need not be convicted of a crime and more demanding criminal procedure does not apply. The burden of proof is on an owner asserting unawareness of criminal activity associated with the asset or presenting an innocent explanation for possessing large sums of cash. Possession of significant amounts of currency, while not illegal, is frequently perceived as coming from illegal drug sales. Since the forfeiture action is against the property, the owner is a 'third party' claimant requesting to be heard by the court. Such contested seizures require timely filing post the seizure and case statistics reveal a lower level of success than one might believe possible.
__________________
"Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement."
Sir Tristan
Air #48582, S/SO #003, WBCCI #4584
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02-09-2017, 03:18 PM
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#54
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2 Rivet Member
2015 25' FB International
my
, house
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 86
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SeeMore--
What is our protection or best course, for those of us who carry large amounts of cash?
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02-09-2017, 03:29 PM
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#55
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Rivet Master
2014 23' Flying Cloud
Fair Oaks
, California
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 717
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeeMore
In civil asset forfeiture cases the government proceeds directly against the property, not the individual. Consequently, an individual need not be convicted of a crime and more demanding criminal procedure does not apply. The burden of proof is on an owner asserting unawareness of criminal activity associated with the asset or presenting an innocent explanation for possessing large sums of cash. Possession of significant amounts of currency, while not illegal, is frequently perceived as coming from illegal drug sales. Since the forfeiture action is against the property, the owner is a 'third party' claimant requesting to be heard by the court. Such contested seizures require timely filing post the seizure and case statistics reveal a lower level of success than one might believe possible.
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Your response is an articulate and no doubt correct answer to my question. While my question was intended to be rhetorical, your illustration of the legal machinations necessary to bring such a thing about certainly illustrates that where there's a will, there's a way!
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02-09-2017, 03:30 PM
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#56
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Rivet Puller
2003 28' Safari S/O
Atlanta Burbs
, Georgia
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,006
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Personally, I don't carry more than pocket cash. An officer intent on seizure will let your story fall on deaf ears and merely reply, "tell the judge." Given the success rate of retaining cash seizures and declining tax-based funding for agencies, I believe many federal and state entities have become dependent on this as a source for continued or expanded operations.
Annual Federal asset seizures grew from $303 million in 2003 to over $3.1 Billion in 2015 (last audited accounting from the Department of Justice for the Marshall's Service). It is a popular tactic and the entities involved get to keep a percentage of the asset proceeds (~1/3). Seized cash as a portion of the aggregate is not reported.
I don't know where one can tally all the state and municipal seizures to better gauge the national phenomenon.
__________________
"Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement."
Sir Tristan
Air #48582, S/SO #003, WBCCI #4584
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02-09-2017, 03:48 PM
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#57
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Rivets?
1992 29' Excella
2010 22' Interstate
Van By The River
, Georgia
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by streaminwild
I had no idea of the ''Civil Forfeiture Law'' enacted by President Reagan in 1984. Design to seize drug money, since 9/11 reports of officers making random stops for cash seizures. I go to flea markets, yard sales, estate sales where cash is the only thing accepted. This law, is now being abused all over the country by law enforcement. A ''Black Asphalt '' training program teaches police how to seize cash, without criminal cause. Don't believe me? Check the net. It's bad enough worrying about the criminals, now this. So if not cash, does every campground, restaurant, attractions, accept credit cards? Has anyone had cash seized for no reason? This thread is to inform us on this little known law. I plan to take a long trip and carrying cash for expenses...now I don't know. Some gas stations in Virginia give you .10 discount for cash. How do you guys pay for things on the road. Please don't kill the messenger.
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We pay for almost everything with credit card. Seems to me to be a much safer way to utilize my funds. With the $0.03 discount obtained at Pilot and Flying J (using Good Sam member card) and the cashback bonus on our credit card(s) I don't feel like I'm missing much compared to the periodic $0.10 discount at some gasoline stations.
We obtain more cash when needed by stopping at a credit union. Many (if not most) credit unions are "shared branches" and can access your account anywhere across the country. There are more variety of credit union locations around the country than branches of a given big bank so obtaining money while on the road has not been a problem for us. When I purchased a used vehicle (several states away) I did not want to fly with that much cash for a variety of reasons. I explained to the seller that we would go to a "shared branch" credit union to obtain the funds. There are limits to the amount of cash you can access through a single transaction from a shared branch but it's way more than I'll ever need.
__________________
Lucius and Danielle
1992 29' Excella Classic / 2010 Interstate
2005 Chevrolet Suburban K2500 8.1L
2018 GMC Sierra K1500 SLT, 6.2L, Max Trailering
Got a cooped-up feeling, gotta get out of town, got those Airstream campin' blues...
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02-09-2017, 04:12 PM
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#58
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Rivet Master
1972 25' Tradewind
North Vancouver
, British Columbia
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,421
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwpaint
SeeMore--
What is our protection or best course, for those of us who carry large amounts of cash?
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Don't advertise it on a public forum?
__________________
Cameron & the Labradors, Kai & Samm
North Vancouver, BC
Live! Life's a banquet and most poor suckers are starving to death! - Mame Dennis
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02-09-2017, 04:32 PM
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#59
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2 Rivet Member
2015 25' FB International
my
, house
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cameront120
Don't advertise it on a public forum?
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Brilliant! Thanks for the advice. Never occurred to me that thieving trolls hung out on this forum. Now they know I usually pay in cash . They know the town I live in, and that I have an Airstream. Now if they figure out where I am at any given time on the road, I am in trouble. Again thanks for the great advice.
I was actually asking about legal protections, SeeMore seemed to have a very good grasp on the laws pertaining to asset confiscation
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02-09-2017, 05:02 PM
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#60
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Silver Spud
1975 31' Sovereign
Twin Falls
, Idaho
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DMP54
I don't know...maybe keep the bottle in the stapled bag from the pharm. Come on peeps, let common sense rule
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Right because the cops use common sense. Great advice.
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