Civil Forfeiture Law

[Lily&Me]

Originally Posted by streaminwild

Maggie, One of the occurrences I read, involved a motocross racer traveling in his motorhome to a race. Looking for webpage now. After the almost financial collapse of 2007, I tried to get my cash out of bank, the bank would only give me 1,500 per day. It took me 2 months to get most of it out. Then, I wanted to open a safe deposit box to store the cash...that's illegal. It's their money until you take it out.

Okay, even if there are two.

It's not a general problem for RV'ers, but you apparently wanted this discussion and airing of this here, so now you have it.


Maggie

[JitneyBead]

This happened in Oklahoma and explains the problem very well.
The act of carrying money - legal currency - has become justification for seizure.
I don't for a second believe this is something most RVers have to worry about, but to suggest civil forfeiture abuse isn't real is to ignore a growing threat to liberty in the name of security.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.aeae613927f3

[streaminwild]

Originally Posted by Lily&Me

Okay, even if there are two.

It's not a general problem for RV'ers, but you apparently wanted this discussion and airing of this here, so now you have it.


Maggie

It's not just for traveling expenses, also for buying used RV's. Just informing people of this law, so they can use a alternate way to travel, or pay for used Airstream. If this thread saves one person from confiscation, it will be worth it. This messenger is now dead.... Sorry about this info everyone. Mods you can close this thread if you want.

[bwpaint]

Found this on a page discussing the position of the ACLU on this matter. Agree with them or not, which I frequently do not, cash forfeiture happens often enough that they are addressing it.

A debate has long been underway about the circumstances under which the government may examine and even seize the property of American citizens under a collection of laws commonly described as “Civil Asset Forfeiture.” A variety of state and federal laws allow law enforcement agents to seize an individual’s assets for a number of reasons, and critics of such laws assert reclaiming assets seized in such a fashion is next to impossible. The American Civil Liberties Union (who opposes the practice) described civil asset forfeiture on a page about the subject:
Every year, federal and state law enforcement agents seize millions of dollars from civilians during traffic stops, simply by asserting that they believe the money is connected to some illegal activity and without ever pursuing criminal charges. Under federal law and the laws of most states, they are entitled to keep most (and sometimes all) of the money and property they seize.

I use cash almost exclusively, and this is definitely something to be aware of.

[jdalrymple]

Originally Posted by DKB_SATX

The conservative think tank "The Heritage Foundation" thinks that civil asset forfeiture laws are being abused and that uses of the laws have gone far afield of what was intended. The article includes several concrete examples.

Civil Asset Forfeiture: Good Intentions Gone Awry and the Need for Reform

As does the ACLU.

https://www.aclu.org/issues/criminal...rfeiture-abuse


Regards,


JD

[xrvr]

Originally Posted by Nuvite-F

Lily, I realize that your late husband was a law enforcement officer and you no doubt have many friends in that field, but the fact is that the civil forfeiture laws have been abused many times and in many jurisdictions.

First, everyone needs to understand that that the civil forfeiture law allows law enforcement to confiscate--and KEEP--any property believed to be the proceeds of a criminal enterprise without charging--or even arresting--the individual from whom it was confiscated. It is incumbent on the victim to sue in civil court (hence the term "civil forfeiture") to get his property back. This has proven to be very profitable to various governments and some have been unable to resist.

The libertarian Cato Institute has done a lot of studies on the abuses of civil forfeiture. Here's a link to 227 of them:

https://find.cato.org/search?q=civil...web_collection

I think Lilly is her dog.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by Lily&Me

RV'ers do not generally need to fear being stopped, asked how much cash they have, and having it unreasonably taken....

It depends on the location. Our historical travels in the Big Bend region of Texas have resulted in us being stopped and asked questions on 100% of trips taken to date. We have yet to go out there in our Interstate, but I'm sure that will be instructive.

[Lily&Me]

Originally Posted by avionstream

I think Lilly is her dog.

Lily is the dog, Me is...me.

My late husband was not law enforcement, he was a child abuse investigator...no arrest powers, tho those of protective custody of minors under certain conditions.


Maggie

[Hittenstiehl]

Lily is married.🤔

Congratulations....Puppies 🐕 anytime soon.

[Lily&Me]

No-no...my Lily has been surgically altered.

There will be no puppies.


Maggie

[McDave]

There should be no law granting the authority to law enforcement organizations to keep seized property if charges were dismissed or there was no conviction. I'm surprised this is even an issue. Throughout our legal history, countless cases have been dismissed before trial because there wasn't enough evidence to go to trial. Were many of these people guilty? No doubt. Were they jailed or fined anyway, because they "might" be guilty? Of course not! Our system is innocent until proven guilty, which all LEO's and district attorneys well understand. Why is there an exception for confiscation of property believed to have been used in a criminal enterprise without proof?

[InterBlog]

Humor aside, when we talk about topics like this, we have to make allowances for the differences in peoples' experiences and the resulting expectations. Not to veer the thread into culture warring territory, which is a full-on disaster for any forum, but I'm a good example. I'm a visibly conservative middle-aged snow white woman with a spotless legal record - the last person on earth anyone would expect to run into unwarranted friction with any authorities for any reason. But my biological child is a different race and doesn't visibly resemble me, so there have been times when I know I've been under suspicion of either using the kid for prostitution or as a drug mule. I have vivid memories of the two of us being hauled into a back room and the authorities stripping my young teenage daughter down to her brassiere to look for what should not be on her body (and of course there was nothing). So when people ask me if something like a civil forfeiture investigation COULD possibly happen to someone like me, my answer is Oh Hell Yes. Is it LIKELY to happen? No. But I've seen what can transpire when one does not fit an expected American citizen profile.

[SeeMore]

Originally Posted by McDave

Why is there an exception for confiscation of property believed to have been used in a criminal enterprise without proof?

In civil asset forfeiture cases the government proceeds directly against the property, not the individual. Consequently, an individual need not be convicted of a crime and more demanding criminal procedure does not apply. The burden of proof is on an owner asserting unawareness of criminal activity associated with the asset or presenting an innocent explanation for possessing large sums of cash. Possession of significant amounts of currency, while not illegal, is frequently perceived as coming from illegal drug sales. Since the forfeiture action is against the property, the owner is a 'third party' claimant requesting to be heard by the court. Such contested seizures require timely filing post the seizure and case statistics reveal a lower level of success than one might believe possible.

[bwpaint]

SeeMore--

What is our protection or best course, for those of us who carry large amounts of cash?

[McDave]

Originally Posted by SeeMore

In civil asset forfeiture cases the government proceeds directly against the property, not the individual. Consequently, an individual need not be convicted of a crime and more demanding criminal procedure does not apply. The burden of proof is on an owner asserting unawareness of criminal activity associated with the asset or presenting an innocent explanation for possessing large sums of cash. Possession of significant amounts of currency, while not illegal, is frequently perceived as coming from illegal drug sales. Since the forfeiture action is against the property, the owner is a 'third party' claimant requesting to be heard by the court. Such contested seizures require timely filing post the seizure and case statistics reveal a lower level of success than one might believe possible.

Your response is an articulate and no doubt correct answer to my question. While my question was intended to be rhetorical, your illustration of the legal machinations necessary to bring such a thing about certainly illustrates that where there's a will, there's a way!

[SeeMore]

Personally, I don't carry more than pocket cash. An officer intent on seizure will let your story fall on deaf ears and merely reply, "tell the judge." Given the success rate of retaining cash seizures and declining tax-based funding for agencies, I believe many federal and state entities have become dependent on this as a source for continued or expanded operations.

Annual Federal asset seizures grew from $303 million in 2003 to over $3.1 Billion in 2015 (last audited accounting from the Department of Justice for the Marshall's Service). It is a popular tactic and the entities involved get to keep a percentage of the asset proceeds (~1/3). Seized cash as a portion of the aggregate is not reported.

I don't know where one can tally all the state and municipal seizures to better gauge the national phenomenon.

[nvestysly]

Originally Posted by streaminwild

I had no idea of the ''Civil Forfeiture Law'' enacted by President Reagan in 1984. Design to seize drug money, since 9/11 reports of officers making random stops for cash seizures. I go to flea markets, yard sales, estate sales where cash is the only thing accepted. This law, is now being abused all over the country by law enforcement. A ''Black Asphalt '' training program teaches police how to seize cash, without criminal cause. Don't believe me? Check the net. It's bad enough worrying about the criminals, now this. So if not cash, does every campground, restaurant, attractions, accept credit cards? Has anyone had cash seized for no reason? This thread is to inform us on this little known law. I plan to take a long trip and carrying cash for expenses...now I don't know. Some gas stations in Virginia give you .10 discount for cash. How do you guys pay for things on the road. Please don't kill the messenger.

We pay for almost everything with credit card. Seems to me to be a much safer way to utilize my funds. With the $0.03 discount obtained at Pilot and Flying J (using Good Sam member card) and the cashback bonus on our credit card(s) I don't feel like I'm missing much compared to the periodic $0.10 discount at some gasoline stations.

We obtain more cash when needed by stopping at a credit union. Many (if not most) credit unions are "shared branches" and can access your account anywhere across the country. There are more variety of credit union locations around the country than branches of a given big bank so obtaining money while on the road has not been a problem for us. When I purchased a used vehicle (several states away) I did not want to fly with that much cash for a variety of reasons. I explained to the seller that we would go to a "shared branch" credit union to obtain the funds. There are limits to the amount of cash you can access through a single transaction from a shared branch but it's way more than I'll ever need.

[cameront120]

Originally Posted by bwpaint

SeeMore--

What is our protection or best course, for those of us who carry large amounts of cash?

Don't advertise it on a public forum?

[bwpaint]

Originally Posted by cameront120

Don't advertise it on a public forum?

Brilliant! Thanks for the advice. Never occurred to me that thieving trolls hung out on this forum. Now they know I usually pay in cash . They know the town I live in, and that I have an Airstream. Now if they figure out where I am at any given time on the road, I am in trouble. Again thanks for the great advice.

I was actually asking about legal protections, SeeMore seemed to have a very good grasp on the laws pertaining to asset confiscation

[shadrick5]

Originally Posted by DMP54

I don't know...maybe keep the bottle in the stapled bag from the pharm. Come on peeps, let common sense rule

Right because the cops use common sense. Great advice.