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Old 01-14-2006, 07:02 AM   #1
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Bad Times....

Hi All... Jus a line 2 let U kn I R still readin U Guys...but sorry I not bn joinin in lately, due 2 My Mom havin a fall over Xmas, & is still in Hospital, where they found Her secret lump, as She calls it, turns out its a Cancer tumor... She had Her 82nd Birthday on thursday, & had a cake & the nurses sang happy B/Day 2 Her... 'Fraid she lost abt 3 stone in 2 month, put the wind up us 2 say the least, extensive talks with the Doctors, Specialist & who ever... it's not good news i'm affraid... tho still has 2 have lot more tests, Her Heart is playin up a bit 2, so treatment 4 Her is very limited...plus bein a diabetic aint helpin, BUT She still smilin, tho in denial of Her cndition, She will need & get a lot of help B4 She is allowed home, My sister wants Her put in2 a home... us 3 Boys, as Mom calls us, aint gonna let that happen... Time is not on Her side nor is Her age, but we ALL with Her....
I jus thought I let U kn, so if I aint around 4a while, I aint gone awol, as it were, I did try 2 post a few times last week, but I jus could'nt seem 2 send it 4 some reason, & yesterday, I could'nt even get in2 the Forum... Read U all soon, ... Chris n Family.....
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Old 01-14-2006, 07:12 AM   #2
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Chris,
Sounds like ur mom is quite a lady with an uphill fight on her hands..
Our heartfelt prayers for her.
Best of wishes to you during this trying of times.
take care..
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Old 01-14-2006, 07:21 AM   #3
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In American we have a wonderful alternative to nursing homes for those who are facing the end of, what for your mom, sounds like a wonderful life. It's called Hospice. These are nurses that come to your home and help you with the care of your mom. They are a great help to the sick but also a wonderful helping friend to those who must do most of the care, YOU. Here there would no charge to the family Be sure to be a good listener to mom when she talks about her life. Denial is the first stage of going through this process. It is we humans way of coping with a situation we can't quite believe we are in. Denial is not a bad thing-go with it. My mom passed away at 87 on Christmas day. It's hard, but we have memories.
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Old 01-14-2006, 09:29 AM   #4
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Sorry to hear it Chris, sounds like tough times. She's lucky to have her 'boys' sticking by her side to give her the support she needs. Take care of yourself, and we'll be thinking of you and your family
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Old 01-14-2006, 11:12 AM   #5
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Chris, you've cheered us all many times in the past with your posts to this forum. I hope that knowing your mother and your family are supported with the concern and prayers of our members will now help you and yours. Please keep us posted. ~G
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Old 01-14-2006, 11:40 AM   #6
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We are all thinking of you. My mum is 85 and failing too. Sort of "everything-itis". We are very lucky to have a clear understanding with her main doctor, a geriatric specialist who takes charge when various other doctors get too enthusiastic. We've seen several of her friends and neighbors have heart bypass surgery, aggressive chemotherapy, etc. Most don't survive the treatment for a year - and many elders come out of general anesthesia with severe mental deficits (a polite way of saying that they seem to leap into senility). Often older people do very well on chemo that is designed to put their cancer into a "holding" state rather than going for a cure. I have two friends with terminal cancer who were both diagnosed over 4 years ago.

We hope you are able to keep your mother comfortable - first, last and always that is the best and only thing. And if caring for her in her or your home isn't possible (too many stairs, doorways too narrow for a wheelchair, etc.) don't feel guilty. Just find a home where you can visit any time of day or night, and set up a schedule so that someone spends time with her every single day.

We will think of you and pray for your whole family.

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Old 01-14-2006, 05:03 PM   #7
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Re Bad...

Hi All... Firstly thank you ALL 4 Yr kind words, I kn this forum IS 4 the enjoyment of NICE things... not 2 read Me goin on abt My family problems, however, I'm glad I did, simply 'cos I do read what U write, & I DO understand what U all say... My D/W & Me, jus got bk from a family meetin, Her Boys as Mom calls Her... I guess She done a good job bringin us up all alone since '58... 'tho We all went our seperate ways, we nvr deserted Her... My eldest Brother whom I rarely spoken 2 for over 35 years, was 4 once quite civil & understandin... My Middle Brother, who has bn chosen by Mom 2 take care of things 4 Her, We had a kinda get2gether pow-pow, We all had our inns n outs of Mom, ALL 4 Her own good, naturaly, Dianne decided that She will give up Her work 2 tend Her, as She lives quite near... I learnd that Mom is a lot more poorly than I was led 2 believe... & the mention of the Mc.Millan Hospice would B a wonderful place 4 Mum... BUT NONE of us want that 4 Her, She loves Her home, & Her garden...& We all Love MOM... I also learned that Mom had saved a lot of Pennies over the year, & that who gets what, Premature I kn, My God I said, the VULTURES have came outta the cupboards, but NOT at all, things gotta B faced...personaly if I thought My share would BUY My mom an extra hour... I would happily give ALL I OWN...
... But sadly, things R kinda different 2day, Thursday, Her B/day, saw Her the happiest person in the world, not a care, full of colour... 2day, Well looks like the make up artist from the Rocky Horror Show bn 2 C Her... But She still My Mom, Still in Denial, still smilin, knwin people R talkin abt Her, usin Big medical words, & noddin at one another, keepin secrets from Her... But U wanna kn somethin... She KNOWS... She aint stupid, I wanna ask Her how She feelin, But I dare'nt, 'cos I kn the answer I'll get from Her... " I'm waitin 4 God Son... Waitin 4 God "... Well I jus hope He aint gonna B 2 long... She's hurtin... & I can't bear 2 C Her suffer...Bless Her... Chris.....
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Old 01-14-2006, 05:12 PM   #8
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Unhappy Sorry you're having to go through this

Chris, Paula, so sorry you're going through this. It is wonderful that you and your families are present for your mothers at this time. How better to show them that they are loved than to spend time with them? Your love and loyalty is a great testament to your mothers' work (both Chris and Paula).
Feel comforted knowing that others care and keep you in their thoughts and prayers.
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Old 01-15-2006, 12:37 PM   #9
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So sorry to hear of your news, Chris. Our thoughts are with you and your family.

If I can be so bold as to offer a word of advice, it would be to talk with her, and encourage her to talk with you. No subject is off limits - I think you may be surprised about the depth of thought she has already put into the matter, and would appreciate being spoken to as an adult.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. It is an honor.
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Old 01-16-2006, 01:10 PM   #10
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The Talk...

Well thank U Guys 4 lettin Me "" Dump on U "" & Thank U Airstream, 4 rememberin it's My BIRTHDAY ( 53 ) 2day... With all he stuff goin on around My Family & Myself, I jus kinda 4rt I'yd catch up on it later... not the case sadly... not 2 worry, always next year...( SIGH ! )...
Pmclemore, thank You 4 Yr kind words, infact THANK ALL OF U... 2Day WE did sit & TRY 2 talk 2 Mom, but She knows best, She DOES kn how ill She is, & whats goin on with Her, She IS 100% on the ball, as it were... She gone in2 total denial, She says She jus a bit off & puts it down 2 Her age & it being winter... & it realy nothing 2 get concerned abt, We have decided She is NOT going in2 a Home, but will have a special Mc. Millan nurse visit Her every day, besides the Sister in law will give up Her job, & tend 2 Her all day, with the things Mom can't do... We will ALL still do our lttl bits 4 Her, like I'll upkeep Her garden & do Her Bread run, One will bring Her flowers...& so on, Nothin will change 4 Her, except Mom will NOT lift a finger in the general household chores, She already burned 3 teatowels on Christmas eve... so that'll change 4a start... Tho Mom IS very Independant indeed, & quite stubborn at times, I kn She will kn that WE ALL kn how She is, & hopefuly we R tryin 2 make Her as comfortable as We all can...& We will tell Her so, afterall, We only got ONE MUM...Thank You ALL 4Yr support durin our Family ordeal... Bless You ALL...Chris.....
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Old 01-16-2006, 01:17 PM   #11
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Bad Times

Bless you Chris and your family,

You are a wonderful son and I know your mom is so comforted to have all of you. We will keep you and your family in our prayers.

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Old 01-18-2006, 12:34 PM   #12
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Evenin ALL...

2day Mum was allowed out of Hospital 4a Home visit, 2 cut it all short they bunged Her in wheelchair, took Her by Special Taxi, 2 Her bungalow, the social services rushed Her around the place, & fired questions at an alarming rate, so basicaly Mum was sayin Yes 2 the NO's, & vice versa... I was there & took it all in, goodness who they thought I was... My Sis-in-law... looked on in amazement, havin 27 years experience workin in a home 4 the Aged... said She saw nothing like it in Her life... Then WE kicked in... I started, I can not repeat what I said..., But I guess U gotta grand idea.... Well after Dianne told them they were outta order in the manner they escorted n spoke 2 My mum... I had a few words, turns out Dianne IS more Qualified than the 2 of those idiots put 2gether... So We told them that they Would B reported, & We R going 2 take it further... a LOT further, & WE WILL. They were jus BULLIES, 2 mid 30's versus a Sick 82 Yrs old Woman... I don't think so, it's disgraceful, it realy is... So as 4 decidin 2 Tend 4 mum at home, is a FAB idea, NO way Is Mum gonna B treated like Moo-Poo, not on Yr Nelly... Mum wants 2 go 2 Her home, She will get the treatment from the REAL ANGELS, the Cancer trained specialists Nurses, will visit every day or 2 days... She hates the Hospital, as they can do nothing 4 Her that will make Her recover, but what they can DO is take away Her pain, make Her Comfortable, & We'll make Her Smile agn... Bless Her, agn, Thank U ALL 4 yr kind words, When, She gets 2 come home is another story... If I have 2 go get Her in My wheelbarrow & sneak Her outta there, then that B it...Chris.....
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Old 01-18-2006, 03:27 PM   #13
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Your Mum is fortunate...

Chris-

More thoughts and prayers with you and the family.. Your story and others like it here are reminders that a leaky rivet or misfiring furnace are minor issues in the great scheme of things... Many of us have had to deal with similar issues: home care, hospice care, denial and sqaubbles amongs the siblings.. There is no perfect answer, but doing the best you can each day is the best possible answer, and we all wish you the best, and look forward to having you back on the Forum in good spirits!

John McG
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Old 01-19-2006, 07:58 AM   #14
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I read this and cried...

Life is about so many different things....
Each of which can arise at any given moment.
Bless your mom!
My familys' thoughts are with her and you both.
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Old 01-19-2006, 11:48 AM   #15
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Update....

I kinda feel GUILTY by burdening U all with My troubles, but My gran used 2 say 2 Me... Listen My Boy, talk 2 someone, strangers R the best, U don't kn them... & U may well learn a thing or 2 from them... well I sure have learnd a LOT from U Guys, that's 4 sure... I met some of U as well... a trouble shared.
Visited Mum a while ago, She complaing abt Her eyes hurtin, they found out the other day that Her borderline Diabetic IS FULL Strength...so She gotta have Her eyes examined now, as if She aint got enough 2 worry abt, I don't kn, what We gonna do with Her, What amazes Me is She STILL keeps on SMILING... She had a visit from some Big-Wig Doctor, Never said a word hardly... but did say when the results get bk 2 Him, He'll let Her know... They never do tho... All one way... She insists She gonna come home 2morrow, said that ever since She went in, We R ALL hangin in here, every day kinda gets easier, don't kn Y, but it jus seems 2...
My Boss has bn great, keeps tellin Me if I gotta go, I gotta GO... jus let Him know... think Mum comes B4 work... would'nt U say... well I only got one MUM, there's a MILLION other jobs out there...Chris.....
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Old 01-19-2006, 09:03 PM   #16
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So sorry about your mother. Our family will be praying for your family. I can relate to the diabetes, my husband is a type 1 and he has an insulin pump. Being that she has cancer that will most likely keep her sugar out of wack. She is lucky to have you for a son, there are so many that just turn a blind eye. God bless
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Old 01-19-2006, 11:49 PM   #17
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Death is NOT a 4 letter word.

Quote:
Originally Posted by canny_banjo_man
... If I have 2 go get Her in My wheelbarrow & sneak Her outta there, then that B it...Chris.....
Good for you! GET HER HOME! If she dies in 4 days at home, she'll have 4 better days than if she lives in a hospital for 4 months!

For all you nice folks on the forums and Chris - My mum used to be the world's worst hypochondriac until at age 75 she actually did have a very minor stroke.... and she suddenly became healthy. I was 14 when mum called me to her deathbead with the first of 9 or 10 "fatal" heart attacks... (actual illness? a mild case of atrial fibrillation, which resolves itself, or is treated with one digitalis pill.) I was probably in my 20's before I realized her attacks happened just in time for spring cleaning - so I could scrub for weeks to spare her. Get me drunk at a rally... and I'll have you laughing til you puke with some of her antics.

It's ironic, but now all of her fears and terrors are real, and while I'm not uncaring, I've kind of already gone through the whole mourning process years ago. Chris - in a queer way you're fortunate that you only have to deal with it in the here and now, and that your mother seized the day and LIVED. I'll pray for you and your brothers and sisters... and I'll hope your mother's pain can be managed. Most of all I hope you can comfort each other by remembering and sharing the memories of your mother's cheerful nature. That should be your real comfort.

Death has become a dirty word, and it isn't acceptable to talk about it if it's even vaguely imminent, but it will happen to all of us. At your mother's age - and my mother's age - it can happen today or tomorrow.

Chris, a last great irony of life is that often we force the dying to comfort US - by acting like everything is going to be OK. I think none of us can look death square in the eye for long, but taking at least a sideways glance can often open doors for both parties. And I firmly believe that anything that helps you and your family deal with it is fine - even if it's entirely gross and inappropriate humor.

We got my mother to pre-plan her funeral by suggesting that we would scatter her ashes over the Richard Nixon memorial library! (knowing how she loathed big Dick) Humor and white zinfindel... a foolproof way to cheer up mother!

Planning a funeral won't make it happen. (Tell your mum that!) Wanting to say "I forgive you" before someone close passes on won't make them die. If you knew it was the last week of YOUR Life what would you want to do, say, forgive? If we try to give that to our mothers and they change the subject, that's their choice, but if they respond ... well there just aren't words for that are there?

Brothers and sisters:

It was a long time before I realized that my mother - and a lot of other parents - practice "divide and conquer" as a way of keeping their children in hand, but unfortunately the children can spend a lifetime resenting each other. My brother, sister and I got together at one family reunion and had a 30 minute brawl over "you were always the favorite" ... then the lightbulb went on! Mom always made us think that we were never quite as good as each other. All of our lives completely changed on that day. My brother and I don't have much in common, but we are as friendly as we can be living at opposite ends of the country. My sister and I are the co-consipirators that manage mum. And frankly, we sometimes make the grossest most macabre jokes about mom behind her back. Example: I always hear people say "I can't do enough for my mother." Now I say exactly the same words... but somehow they mean something entirely different........ (If you gave mom a million dollars in gold she'd complain that she didn't like the color, sigh softly and say it would have been so much nicer in platinum...)

We allow her to think she's still got us snowed, but we always compare notes and just crack each other up over the stuff mom tries.

Last year for her birthday we got her a motorized recliner that will literally stand her up, and let her lean against it while it sits her back down. She is having lots of problems with her balance, etc. Unbelievably she really liked it, didn't say it was too big, too small, too hard, too soft or the wrong color. We about fell down. Now of course we do hum a line from a song about mom "sitting in her electric chair"......

She is still OCD (do you get "Monk" on TV over there?) - nobody can clean house well enough to satisfy her, the spice rack MUST BE arranged in alphabetical order - and nothing is ever "good enough". But the thing is - we accept her as she is - and we go ahead and do what we need to do to help her - and we don't compete, but buoy each other up when she gets mean spirited.

What you're going through is an emotional roller coaster.... and it's hit you out of the blue. Accept that whatever happens and that however you all act, it's just what you have to do to get through it. My brother, sister and I made only one promise to each other. "We will try to act in such a way that when we look back on it five years later - we won't be ashamed of ourselves or regret things we should have done."

We hold you in our hearts.

Tin Lizzie
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Old 01-20-2006, 01:06 PM   #18
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Thank U...

.....Say there Tin Lizzie... as I said Mum brought us 4 kids up the Best She could, in the '60s... gee it was hard 4 Her, I can tell U stories that will crease U, infact I think I will, But firstly there is no change in Her condition at all 2 Day, tho she pines 4 Her home... 2ndly, B nice 2Yr kids, they get 2 choose Yr retirement home... Far from it... Mum aint goin in any home, don't care if it is Buckingham Palace, She'll moan abt it... But here's one of My stories, I know, I AM ( was ) that Child...
It did'nt bother Me that I had odd pumps 4 school, one was BLACK, the other WHITE, did'nt bother Me that one was a LACE UP, the other a SLIP ON... nor the fact that one was a SIZE 5 & too TIGHT, the other a 7 & too LOOSE... What realy bothered Me was that they BOTH for LEFT FEET... after pleadin with Mum NOT 2 make Me wear them at My school, as cool as a cucumber She turns 2 Me & says... well My Boy, keep movin Yr feet abt NO ONE will notice... maybe not, but they noticed how RED My face was with embarassment.... LOL, NOT FUNNY, well not then, but now...LOL.
Mum STILL insists there is Nothing wrong with Her, yet they gonna keep Her in 4 a few more tests, I ask Her this, & She says She bn chosen 4 the Junior doctors 2 practice, U kn, i'm like a Model, & they R junior doctors...
they gotta learn on someone.... God She's so stubborn, & if she aint home within the next 2 weeks, well... well I wonder if it is an offence 2 Wheel Barrow a MODEL Patient out of a hospital... SIGH, But Seriously, We R ALL at our wits end over it all... No one knows what 2 say 2 Her, We jus sit there lookin at each other, & smilin at Mum & noddin our heads like ruddy noddin dogs... it's so pittyful, She jus lays on Her bed all day, havin far 2 much time 2 think abt things, I'm sure She scarin Her self in2 a illness... Because U can't C any damage like a broken Leg / Arm in a sling, it's hard 2 imagine whats realy goin on inside Her, tho She DID say one day that She came in with " A Pair ", & I'm goin home with a PAIR 2... So She knows what up with Her, jus wont talk abt it 2 any one, We tried, But She moves the goal posts, as it were... Well Thank U all agn, God bless U ALL... Chris.....
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Old 01-20-2006, 03:24 PM   #19
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Grab the Doctor and Threaten... REALLY

No Doctor has EVER saved a SINGLE human life. An emergency appendectomy PROLONGED my eleven year old brother's life - possibly by another 60 or 80 years, but my brother is still going to die, someday! Say something like that to a group of doctors and they'll look at you like you just shoved a **** sandwich under their noses. But it's something that everyone who is caring for an elderly person needs to know, believe and say to every doctor that comes within 10 feet of their parent.

My mother will NOT be alive 10 years from now... or even 5 years from now... and possibly not even 1 month from now. If she wants a margarita with salt on the brim, she SHOULD have it, because it really can't hurt her now. If she dies two weeks earlier because she has it... well, why exactly would that be a problem? (Ten years ago skipping the salt was a great idea... I skip the salt, but when I'm 85? Piss off!)


---------------
Doctors aren't evil, but they've been trained to think and act agressively and to regard EVERY death as a personal failure.

Doctors look at a 2 lb. bad heart and say "I can fix that".... but they forget to look at the 130 lb. 85 year old who is wrapped around that bad heart. Doctors look at cancer and think, I can operate, use radiation, chemotherapy or all of the above and I can kill the cancer... but they don't think what will be LEFT for the patient. Doctors are almost incapable of looking at a whole patient and saying "her life expectancy even without this problem is a matter of months or even weeks, and any medical "heroics" will only prolong her death, not her life."

You may literally have to tell your mom's doctors exactly what my kid sister did.... "Doctor if you crack open my mother's chest I'm going to crack open your head."

BTW she is a black belt so she wasn't kidding. (I'm not a blackbelt, so I just resort to references to "Texas Chainsaw Vasectomy" which is a real attention getter.)

Naturally they tried to convince me that Karen was being unreasonable and that mom had signed a consent form - and knew what she was doing when she signed... I dragged the doctor back into the room and held the form up and asked mom what she had signed. Her response, "Well this nice young man just needed me to sign to get the medicare reimbursement started." I thought the doctor was going to pass out! Mom appears to be very alert, and she's always eager to please anything in a white coat, but in fact she's 80% deaf AND in early stages of Alzheimers.

Then I asked her directly, "Mom, they think that maybe you could have a heart bypass... do you want them to crack your chest open and operate?" Her response, "Oh, HELL NO!" Next, "Mom, if you had another heart attack while you were in here and your heart stopped do you want them to hook you up to the jumper cables and call a code blue? (Mom did work in a hospital in her 50's). Again she responded, "We've been over that a dozen times... NO! They burn you, they break your ribs or your sternum and they "save" you so five or six times... but by the end of the week you still die. Screw that."

(It was a real pleasure to hear my generally prudish mother say "screw that") And the expression on the young doctor's face ... priceless. Fortunately we DID get mom to do the whole living will process years ago.


I'm not really up on British medicine, but Hospice is an idea we imported from Europe... not the other way around. Get someone from a hospice program to advise and help you... get your siblings to realize they have all got to stick to the same line. Mom goes HOME, Mom goes HOME NOW, Mom gets to die at HOME. If she's in denial, that's fine, that's great and she's going HOME.

When the doctors argue - ask them "Can you see ANY circumstance where mum will be alive, mentally alert, pain free, and able to get about one year from today? If not, give us one reason why she shouldn't go home NOW."


You are fighting for your mother's life... it may be only a few days or weeks... but lying in a hospital being poked, prodded, and frightened isn't something you'd allow them to do to your dog. Let her go home and watch the telly and sleep in her chair and look at the old photo albums. And DON'T call the flying squad (911 rescue) when she hits the crisis point. Give her pain meds and call the hospice nurse, then sit quietly holding her hand.

Paula
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Old 01-21-2006, 01:26 PM   #20
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Re: Mum...

... Well sadly We don't live 4ever..., but I gotta admit Mum has had a good time in Her life, Has lots of Friends, hardly been ill, always put us First, never smoked since the late '60s... seldom drinks, but She sure can TALK 4 England, LOL, Guess I take after Her... LOL, When My Mid Bruv was in the Royal Navy, in the mid '60s, My Mum threw some great parties, 4 His home commings, infact one year We had over 40 Sailors, & a few were American as well, The local Police Bobby used 2 call on us 2 quiet us down a bit... Hee Hee, U should have seen Him on His Bicycle.. it was winter & quite cold, so a warm COFFEE worked wonders... So did the WHISKEY what was in it...LOL.
The problem with Mum, & so many Mature Folk is that they R frightened & blinded by science... A doctor is usualy some one who can B trusted & knows best, so Mum has probably jus gone along with Him, Her, jus 2 get some peace & 2B polite... She hates 2 much fuss & fallin out... She's very Vunerable, to whats goin 2 happen 2 Her in all these tests She still gotta have, She jus wants 2 get them over with... Her eyes have decided 2 play tricks on Her now, She says they keep goin dim, & blurey, with or without Her glasses... so agn further tests, Mor upsettin 4 Her...
Yr right U kn... NO one will 4ever... & folk Die every day, other peoples Folk that is... but when it happens in yr own household...it's kinda Hard, hard 4 everyone, specialy if Yr close as I am 2 them... I'm acceptin it & prepared 4 the worse, With Her bad heart, diabetic & this cancerous secret lump She got... but We realy tryin 2 get Her HOME, Home where She belongs, it's no good treatin Her if Her will 2 live is goin, I can C the sadness in Her eyes, almost pleadin Me 2 help Her, I dearly wish I could, We ALL DO... something IS wrong, I can feel it, but NO-ONE sayin anything... What the Hell U supposed 2 say 2Her ?, H Ya Mum, how U feelin, Yea sure, She'll knock My head off 4 being clever... so agn We jus sit there n NOD & mutter & wish We were somewhere else... I took Her some Biscuits 2day, the Nurse took them away, can't have those... Y not I shouted... because they R bad 4 HER... Hey it's COMFORT FOOD I said, but My pittyful voice fell on deaf ears... sod Her I said, & slipped Mum ANOTHER packet, whisperin on the top of My voice, as She quite deaf... Shh Don't tell anyone... & don't hide them in Yr slippers these R4 EATIN, not 4 pretendin Yr walkin on the shingle beach...Bless Her, She asked Me 2 pass Her the LOOKIN GLASS, now My Nanna ( Mum's Mum ) used 2 say that a long, long time ago...& She was 84 when She passed over, I never heard Mum call it that B4... Strange, But not2worry...
Well time 2 go bk 2 C Her now... so once agn, many, Many thanks 4 Yr vry kind words... I hope U don't think I'm a coward or a softy or what ever... it's jus a lesson I gotta learn in My lifetime, so Yr advice IS precious 2 Me...Thank You...Chris.....
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It's NICE 2B Important...but it's more Important 2B NICE...Chris.....
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