Airstream designs for the next decade

[qdp]

OK, as an architect I am truly bummed, <www.archwork.com> because the conceptual AS design has NOT kept up with new materials, technology or adaptive-use innovation. Case in point, CCDs come out some 15 years ago- interior decoration, oh, la-la, and Chris Deams are very popular, instantly. As in good and profitable. I've approached AS Thor Conglomerate a few years ago asking them to take on a new RV design implemented, tech driven direction:

High Tech applications, materials, finishes, systems, integrated environmental design. Their HR dept. didn't quite know who to contact with my query. "We have a design dept. already..." Very gooood. - Right. McNoose Technical School A & R. (sorry, if this exists)

What I mean by this design prevalence concept is everything: weight savings carbon fiber, adaptive monocoque chassis, a configured elect. , storable local transport vehicles, clamshell roof panels, (space shuttle) new roof deck walks, better slide-outs, (think....) slide up seating, B-29 vista windows, piezo-electric shading glass, integral PV and integral structure windturbine generators, Aeroblades. (See mobile TV van antennas...) Zero balance life cycle costs,
I could go on and on.

Give me a good seed capital budget, a marketing PR wizard, FUNDS (capitalized) and access to PM NASA articles/innovations and I'll come up with a vehicle you've never even dared to dream of. What things may come. If AirStream is state of the art in RVs, then why don't they have a high performance, TDI diesel, dual seven speed DSG gearboxes , light GVW and the kind of design parameters that make this the most efficient living machine on the planet? WHY NOT?

Instead we still have Grannie's woodsey cabinetry interiors (vs honeycomb Aircraft sandwich panels) Wishlist: Self sufficient, recycled systems, low weight, high strength and adaptive use would be an ideal marketing and design platform. I could have a business model for this outline in a week.

But noooo, let's stick to tried and true traditional 1950's building methodology, without imagination, without creative risk-taking, but most of all, without the foresight that this is what we on our natural resource dwindling planet need. A 55mpg RV that is LEED certified and incredibly efficient is a magnet for the silicon valley techies consumers.

And we all desire to consume less, don't we?

Anyone seen recent developments in luxury Yacht design? From Wally to the German modern "Reederei's", it is amazing what ein klein wenig bit of design competence and creative vision can materialize. Achtung Baby, Ich komme. Instead, we still wallow around in these 14 T behemoths at 5mpg. and 7 ltr cast iron diesel caterpillar hogs, and spend inordinate time servicing an outdated system methodology, just because it has worked so long for so many ----- INEFFECTIVELY. Mercedes and BMW and Honda and Toyota HAVE the engines.

Burn the gods of complacency in the confines of my solar ceramic furnace.
Where are my Russian out-of-work space engineers when we need them? There are no Nationalistic borders, it's all in our minds. Sorry to digress into political manifests.

Give me something to believe in, anybody. I'm short to this world and mad as hell. Why is not design excellence paramount to systems integration. Its all out there, on the shelves, readily available, from FCX Clarity powerplants, to tracking solar PVs, Knolls Aeron chair, to piezo electrics miniaturized. Where are our modern day Da Vinci's?

Design is within every minute detail. How does it work? Which material is best? How does it integrate? My guidelines are: Simple is best, swtraightforward bnetter, complexity adds obfuscation. FLWs nine principles on adaptive site design are correct, And yes Mies, Corbu and Louis, I have learned from you.

As big head Todd and the Monsters lamented, years ago: "If Heaven can be anywhere, why not here? If not now, where? If not now, when?"


What if an Airstream trailer is unearthed 20,000 years from now, our planet dead and diseased, but the advanced archeologists. They look and marvel at the competency of our ancient intellectual prowess, how adaptive we had become to climate to light, to energy adaptation and human systems recycling.

Instead, what we have now is despicable, isn't it? Where are the Kings and Queens of Vision, of change, intellectual prowess, of demand that our life currency be the realm of what a furtive mind is capable of?

Tell me.

Q

[dwightdi]

Airstream is a division of Thor. Both are profit driven companies. They design products that they think will sell well at a price that will allow them a good profit margin. Sometimes they are right, and the product sells well. Sometimes they are wrong (or the market changes) and they do not sell well and they drop the product line. (motorhomes) It is all about the money. The Airstream legacy has a certain look and appeal to the customers they are targeting. Some people seem to be willing to pay a higher price for a product with this particular look.

Award was a company that tried to be innovative in their designs and uses of materials. As an engineer, I found them quite interesting. I believe they went bankrupt. I think someone else is trying to revive them. You might try interviewing over there. I also talked to the Airstream engineering department a number of years ago and found they did not have a materials engineer on their staff or have never contracted a materials engineering consultant. It is not easy to change a corporate culture when they are making good money with out making major changes.

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by qdp

....If AirStream is state of the art in RVs,

But noooo, let's stick to tried and true traditional 1950's building methodology...

who is suggesting a/s is the state of ANY art?

1. they tow well
2. people like the curves and gleam
3. they are for the most part ALL repairable.

and had they actually STUCK with the 50s methods...

many folks would be thrilled.

but there are dozens of threads here on 'how to make a better 'stream...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f46/...uld-43921.html

and a first person visit TO j/c will explain a lot.

and i think wally is credited with a saying paraphrased below...

"let's not make any changes, make only improvements"...

cheers
2air'

[qdp]

Thanks guys, your comments are much appreciated. The "they think will sell well" is the problem. Markets, products change, and leaders -in any field have to recognize the wave trend before it arrives on shore. Hello, are you seeing green now? What was it, the polar bears swimming, the increase in climatological event impacts, or just higher gas prices? Iwas screaming for change with my efforts 30 years ago with Club of Rome Limits to Growth, and Malthus' projections and a first place in the E.P.R.O.M. design competition at NCSU. Few were listening then, but common sense has never been much of a cultural priority in our society.

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." Einstein. You've read Lee Iaccoca's 7 C's of leadership ability? It is about honesty, trust, motivation, visualization, creativity and applied science (answers). I see complacency here in our leadership, continuing what is outmoded.

Thanks for the Award reference, I'll check.

Wally was wrong in his improvement quote. Question everything is a better start. Stressed skin structure, shape, methodology, use and adaptability, weight loss, here are concepts where I'd start. Here's my reasoning: Everything is about weight, or lack thereof. The lighter, the stronger, the easier to build, the better it performs. Forget crashworthiness by mass inertia, because hauling all that mass around is more dangerous. Case in point, the tiny Smart cars earned highest safety rating because of the Tritium cell and applied design methodology. Gordon Murray, McLaren chief designer, is recommending tiny compact cars for the same reasons.

Build lighter always in things that move. Call it Q's law.

Design is everything. In a new house it is just as easy to build a $300/sqft mistake, as it is to build a $300/sqft masterpiece. The only difference is in the design and the application/interaction to the site. (and the costs therein) The same, even more so, applies to trailers and mobile accommodations. No matter how good profit driven companies are, if leadership lacks, it's in trouble. Charles Handy: The Age of Paradox. Sure there's business inertia, but by the time the warnings sound or even start to appear, it's too late. See GM and their announced changes? It's a sad joke that they still do not get.

2air has no argument from me, about towing, gleam, curves and repairable. What ISN'T? I could tow the Titanic, but should I?

That is not the question I ask. When we add 115 pound huge anti-sway hitches, moment arm/trailer hitch connections, instead of 15lbs. of cross braced unequal arm suspensions on the units, this is ineffective, costly, and with higher risk. Cabinetry and layout preferences I care little about. The big picture is something else. Every part I've held up on my Airstream, I've thought of better solutions that are stronger, simpler, easier to build, and mostly cheaper. The problem is exactly this complacency of tradition, and 'don't change what isn't broke' mentality. It is why Airstream is not increasing market share, EXCEPT when new product lines show improvements, as with CCD interior design 'decorations'.

Look at the shell, how it is built.

Everything designed is purpose-driven, sometimes only by the aesthetic. When both beauty and function combine along with innovation, then the magical occurs. Most of our leaders, in their knowledge base, are very unimaginative. Educationally, they are not trained for this. Case study at Harvard, Stanford's Masters MBA programs all use existing models to illustrate the best and most effective programs for business tools applications and methodology. The how-to on buy-outs is pre-emminent study. Understand the value based criteria and lack of morality that fuels our leaders fear-driven ability to lead. What are they preoccupied with?

Build a better product which responds better to consumer needs is what will sell better. Duh.

None train educationally in understanding the dynamic range that product R & D has. If 30% of your operating capital is not going into increasing and diversifying product lines, you will be outsold, purchased or with a lowered market share, inevitably. Ries and Trout: the 22 immutable laws of Marketing. Sorry, I'm digressing.

A few years ago I was interviewed by Fleetwood for a Sr. level position. Nice people, but a huge void, where Craine was retiring. Lack of Direction, mid management vying, the whole political circus. Here's a company with massive opportunity and lack of vision. ideals that are voidless, and clueless methodology looking for business as usual. When I presented ideas about the direction of mobile homes, the same barriers. In products, in assembly, in marketing, in environmentalism, in every single sector I could identify, including vertical marketing techniques for their existing hiarchy-based sales organization, common sense did not prevail. An emerging market called 'the internet' allowed for instant VR reality based fly-thrus, MooVs, and pick and order connectivity unheard of. Too effective, was over their heads, but it required motivation, incentive, vision and carry-through. Don't misunderstand me, they are a great business, they just lacked vision.

Look around: Why are there so many small cap start-ups now? Because leadership in big business did not see the new emergence.

Hence A/S has the opportunity here, and it is being squandered. It is all about design, inherent in their genepool of products. It just is NOT being built, or conceived of, because leaders have other priorities, and no incentive for creative applications, as wally meant: evolution.

Read, look up, and gimme response! thx
Q

[Roamin Cat]

Q,

I'll buy one!!! In a heartbeat. This is the stuff my dreams are made of

I want it to look like an Airstream is supposed to, but be green, LEED, and pretty near industructable. I guess that is too much to ask!

[robandzoe]

Your post seems to be oriented around weight, but want new design.. perhaps the 50s was the way, as my 1958 year 30 foot Sovereign of the Road model weighs about 2 tons less than an Airstream of today at the same length, and I contend, has more room - and I even have a door in a door and stronger aluminum - all without modern materials. You have interesting comments, but I think the American Icon shape and style need to remain what they are on the outside - go ahead and mess with the innards, but leave that Aluminum alone!!!

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by qdp

...Wally was wrong in his improvement quote.

Build lighter always in things that move.

no argument from me, about towing, gleam, curves and repairable.

When we add 115 pound huge anti-sway hitches, moment arm/trailer hitch connections, instead of 15lbs. of cross braced unequal arm suspensions on the units, this is ineffective, costly, and with higher risk.

Look at the shell, how it is built.

didn't suggest that i agree with the 'make no changes' legendary quote, only that it exists.

lighter is good in some regards.

but a/s decided folks wanted OAK interiors like the other makers and LOTS of gadgets...

during the washer/dryer, fireplace, solid whatevery, mirror and gold, big rig and SLIDES frenzy...

now it's hard to undo that movement, mostly because the hand crafting craftsmen are ROBOTIC on the a/s line.

and a 6.5 ft wide unit without a toilet or shower or real galley or water or bed isn't popular (see basecamp) in NEW rvs.

the point about towability, curves, gleam and repairabllity is important...

i've owned a 'stream since 1980.

what attracted me then and still does is that parts are available and the damn thing can be fixed.

i've never considered them the "state of the art" as many non owners and newbies do...

for awhile.

there are MUCH better craftspeople and designers and builders at other rv makers.

sorry but, i don't get your 15 lbs of cross braced unequal arm suspension as a cure for trailer sway...

YAW (called sway) associated with towing isn't the same as ROLL (called sway) in a motor vehicle...

the 2 'anti sway' treatments are for different issues (but i'm no engineer or designer)

YES look at the shell and how it's built!

but what exactly is your point?

shell construction is MUCH different now, (many feel the 50s were MUCH better shells)

no longer using one piece ribs, alclad skin, LOTS of rivets and solid attachments of frame to shell...

many feel the shell IS a key and that with the 'modular' 6 segment assembly they've changed the lock negatively....

but EVEN with the current crappy frame/shell design the factory and service center could BOOST business big time...

IF they had an IN HOUSE program that allowed owners to RETOOL the interiors every few years in jackson center...

cheers
2air'

[bredlo]

QDP, I'll read your ideas all day long. You and I are cut from the same cloth, and if you ever need a fellow dreamer / designer / marketer / aesthete I'll be there in a heartbeat.

I think the notion that Airstream, Apple, or the United States of America for that matter are some sort of deific, untouchable entities that can't stumble and don't need to examine themselves and their motives is terribly short-sighted. All these examples are run by people, and thus all will make blunders in their decisions - be they trailers, computers or wars.

I'm also not one who dismisses history as unrepeatable. Nothing is static, and there will always exist the opportunity for a new, more dynamic, better designed, better governed companies full of ideas to change and shape the future, and swiftly usher out the established giants. We don't need to settle for the choices we're given - we can create our own path. Wally didn't accept the choices he was given, why should we?

Here's a post I rattled off a few months back on my engineering ideas:
http://www.airforums.com/forums/557466-post6.html

[Roamin Cat]

I love aluminum, don't get me wrong, but ...

Will polished stainless steel retain it's luster without regular polishing? For how long? Would scratches be able to be buffed out and reshined? Would it need clearcoating (which is currently leading to filiform on the new trailers)? How much of a weight issue is this vs aluminum? How would it affect costs?

I still love the iconic shape, this is why I paid big bucks for my AS, but I thought I was buying the reputed quality they are known for. Probably a good thing I didn't find this forum until AFTER our purchase

As it is, if I keep this one, within 2 years I will be replacing the wall coverings (hate the mouse fur and vinyl, but wanted something that would be suitable for winter camping, thus the tradeoff), replace the curtains, all cushion covers, the flooring (hate what is in there now, and carpet in a trailer is insane to me - want all cork, Marmoleum or bamboo throughout), the table and the countertops. I am also trying to figure out how to cover all the fake wood with something I find more attractive that will also be durable. I am looking at $5 - 7k in costs here, IF I can do much of the prep work and some of the finish work myself! Yikes!

I am a custom gal living in a plain vanilla, cookie cutter, "off the rack" interior! Or, as they say, I have Champagne taste on a beer budget.

Well, thanks to Patrick at Colonial, I at least have Midnight Sun cushions, pillows and bedspread in my Oatmeal interior, so it is somewhat unique and far more attractive to me!

My husband freaks when I talk of all I want to change! Poor guy. He sees the cost$, can't say I blame him.

[Road Ruler]

The Airstream shape in raw, unpainted carbon fibre......... Yummmm!

[2airishuman]

did the o.p. INTEND 4 this thread to be in the MOHO forum?

there are SEVERAL long threads on the never 2 exist bmw powered new classic moho...

from 2-3 years ago.

now, if ya yearn for fibers...

it might as well be fiberglass

which has a proven longevity c/f has yet to match.

new alloys?

make mine ti !

lite, strong, flexible, corrosion impervious and..

the next shade of silver.

cheers
2air'

[bobfowler]

Originally Posted by qdp

<big, big snip>
Instead, what we have now is despicable, isn't it? Where are the Kings and Queens of Vision, of change, intellectual prowess, of demand that our life currency be the realm of what a furtive mind is capable of?

Tell me.

Q

Despicable? Hardly. Less than perfect? Of course. Something to keep in mind... These are campers! They spend time in the woods (or desert, or *insert location here*), they're NOT luxury yachts, they're NOT the space shuttle, nor are they (for the most part) one's primary residence. OK, I'll get beat up for that last one I KNOW there are a LOT of fulltimers, but let's face it, fulltimers make up a rather small percentage of the travel trailer market - at least for rigs under 30 feet long.

The "traditional 1950's building methodology", while you may consider it dated, is still an excellent option. Now if A/S only built them as well NOW as they did back then... That's another rant all together.

I agree that A/S needs to put the trailers on a diet, they are MUCH heavier now for a given size than 30 years ago, but a lot of that bloat is caused by engineers/designers/marketers adding a lot of crap that most people don't really need/want anyway.

I say give us floors that don't rot (they make them for the Euro market and had them in some Argosy units 30 years ago), carve off a substantial amount of weight so folks don't NEED big fuel burners to tow them, get the build quality back where it should be for the $$$ these things cost, and above all - remember the KISS rule.

Possible? Sure. Will it happen? Don't hold your breath. If you REALLY want the kind of trailer you describe, buy yourself a vintage unit, gut it, re-engineer the frame if you need to, and rebuild the interior to your liking. It'll cost a lot less and you'll get it a lot faster than waiting for J/C to produce it.

[Roamin Cat]

Originally Posted by bobfowler

Possible? Sure. Will it happen? Don't hold your breath. If you REALLY want the kind of trailer you describe, buy yourself a vintage unit, gut it, re-engineer the frame if you need to, and rebuild the interior to your liking. It'll cost a lot less and you'll get it a lot faster than waiting for J/C to produce it.

Sounds like a plan to me, Bob!

[TIMEMACHINE]

Originally Posted by qdp

OK, as an architect I am truly bummed, <www.archwork.com> because the conceptual AS design has NOT kept up with new materials, technology or adaptive-use innovation.


Instead, what we have now is despicable, isn't it? Where are the Kings and Queens of Vision, of change, intellectual prowess, of demand that our life currency be the realm of what a furtive mind is capable of?

Tell me.

Q

qdp.....I agree with your opening statement. The result of not keeping up has resulted in "new" Airstreams that are physically depreciating faster than "vintage" Airstream classics. Just read the quality threads and corrosion threads on new Airstreams if you doubt my statement. There has been some innovation, if you call upgrading vendor sourced components such as micro-convection ovens. Your weight savings argument is right on target....these silver wonders have porked out into 3 1/2 ton (average) silver slugs over the years. Any wonder the majority of responses regarding tow vehicles on forum threads refer to diesel HD pick ups.

I do think that "despicable" is a bit harsh, but then again as I think about it, there is no reason to sugar coat the subject, unless of course you are like me and you need something sweet to help swallow the truth.

time

[kfrere]

"Gut it and rebuild the interior. . . "

Or, do what we are doing. We ordered a new 2008 classic shell from A/S, had that shipped to Timeless Travel Trailers in Wheat Ridge, CO. They are building out the inside exactly to our specifications. We get the layout and materials we want - right down to the window placement. Bamboo floor, lighter weight furnishings, tankless hot water heater, real Queen bed (as opposed to the ridiculous rv queen), larger shower, etc. We spend money where it is important to us, and cut costs where it isn't as important.

We buy things and hang on to them for a long time, so getting what we want to start with is important.

Waiting for the youngin' !
2008 31' Classic (in shell form right now)

[Silverwanabe]

I will not lie, the new units are too heavy and have gotten away from the more simplistic 50's interiors.

Buyers seem to want luxury to the max...

I still love them.

An airplane with no wings

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by kfrere

...Or, do what we are doing. We ordered a new 2008 classic shell from A/S, had that shipped to Timeless Travel Trailers .... They are building out the inside exactly to our specifications...

VERY INTERESTING!

the word has always been that they would not do this,

except with very specific vendors (inlandandy) and not with any usual dealer.

so tell us MORE!

we want some DETAILS!

i recall u asking about no dinette,

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f398...1-a-36458.html

but this reads like u have gone to a WHOLE new level!

very cool, but tell us MORE!

cheers
2air'

[robert claus]

Two years ago, I sent an inquiry to A/S, asking why we didn't see the lighter, simpler designs that were being touted on the Airstream Euro site. I did not receive a response. I think that was because they were working on it, and last year introduced the Sport series based on the Euro platforms. I looked at them. If they'd had the wrap around windows that the Euro version had, I may have bought one. Instead, I bought used. It will be interesting to see if sales of the Sport models improve, reflecting a demand for lighter trailers.

[bobfowler]

Originally Posted by kfrere

"Gut it and rebuild the interior. . . "

Or, do what we are doing. We ordered a new 2008 classic shell from A/S, had that shipped to Timeless Travel Trailers in Wheat Ridge, CO. They are building out the inside exactly to our specifications. We get the layout and materials we want - right down to the window placement. Bamboo floor, lighter weight furnishings, tankless hot water heater, real Queen bed (as opposed to the ridiculous rv queen), larger shower, etc. We spend money where it is important to us, and cut costs where it isn't as important.

We buy things and hang on to them for a long time, so getting what we want to start with is important.

Waiting for the youngin' !
2008 31' Classic (in shell form right now)

I'm curious... How did you get A/S to sell JUST a shell? The standard line has been that they won't do this because of "liability" reasons. That never made any sense to me, the auto industry has done it for a zillion years with light truck and van chassis, selling them with just a cab for RV conversions. Why should a trailer be any different? A simple disclaimer that they aren't responsible for any negative outcome should the rig be finished in a manner that would cause an unsafe condition (overweight, poor weight distribution) should be all that is required. I really like the idea of being able to specify window placement!

Did Timeless Travel Trailers give you an engineering estimate of what the weight of the unit will be when it's completed?

[Journalist]

All those ultra-lightweight state of the art materials (like carbon fiber) would push the cost of the trailers well out of reach of the average person. Airstreams are already about three times the price of a comparable SOB. Innovative or not, not too many people are going to be willing to throw down $350K on a travel trailer.
I do agree that there are things that are a bit antiquated and that A/S designers could use a bit of schooling on modern electronics and technologies. (Let's face it, the entertainment systems in the new trailers are a joke.)
On the other hand, I'd also love to see Airstream go back to making the same trailers that were rolling off the assembly line in the 50s with no changes to them at all!