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Old 08-04-2018, 04:02 PM   #21
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Attached is a scan of the Manual...
#4792 Fuel Return Kit Manual 1.pdf

#4792 Fuel Return Kit Manual 2.pdf
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Old 08-17-2018, 12:20 PM   #22
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The computers showed up today!
I'll get right on it, slotted it in the to do list somewhere below fixing my shower, somewhere above trimming the floor... About on par with getting the engine back in my truck...
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Old 04-02-2019, 12:17 AM   #23
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I finally picked this project back up for some fun, I think I have the circuit reverse engineered, need to spend a few more hours on board layout.

Should be able to have 3 prototype boards here in about 2 weeks, who would be willing and able to give them a test? (Brad?) I'll keep one board for troubleshooting and send out the other two to interested parties as free samples (for the fee of testing and possibly helping debug, since I don't have an EFI unit myself). In an ideal world testers would have oscilloscopes, just in case.

When switching from prototype to production I'm thinking of going to surface mount parts, since I can (or could, at least, when I was in practice) solder them with the same speed and it will greatly reduce board size and therefore cost. We'll see.

Thinking I'll then start selling them for about $25 a piece, and upload the files for anyone adventurous enough to build it themselves.

Electronics has come a long way since 1983
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Old 04-02-2019, 12:23 AM   #24
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If anybody sees any glaring or obvious issues with this let me know (not sure how many electrical lurkers there are)
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Old 04-02-2019, 09:48 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Magnet18 View Post
I finally picked this project back up for some fun, I think I have the circuit reverse engineered, need to spend a few more hours on board layout.

Should be able to have 3 prototype boards here in about 2 weeks, who would be willing and able to give them a test? (Brad?) I'll keep one board for troubleshooting and send out the other two to interested parties as free samples (for the fee of testing and possibly helping debug, since I don't have an EFI unit myself). In an ideal world testers would have oscilloscopes, just in case.

When switching from prototype to production I'm thinking of going to surface mount parts, since I can (or could, at least, when I was in practice) solder them with the same speed and it will greatly reduce board size and therefore cost. We'll see.

Thinking I'll then start selling them for about $25 a piece, and upload the files for anyone adventurous enough to build it themselves.

Electronics has come a long way since 1983
I don't mind being a guinea pig, the only thing that concerns me is how to tap into the injector wiring. The only way I can think of is to actually cut into the wires themselves and that doesn't excite me to much. That harness was $290!

The drive shaft speed sensor shouldn't be a problem and the rest of the wiring is simple.

If nothing else this will give me an excuse to get the Argosy out of the shop on the road. Besides, I still need to resolve the engine shut down issue

Brad
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Old 04-02-2019, 09:52 AM   #26
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You posted while I was typing!

One of the prototypes is going to someone I've been talking to offline with a ford 460 TBI motorhome setup

Brad, gets the other one

Boards come in batches of three, I'll keep the third on hand for troubleshooting

Will keep everyone posted!
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Old 04-02-2019, 09:53 AM   #27
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Ok, so one of the prototypes is going to someone I've been talking to offline with a ford 460 TBI motorhome setup

Brad, if you're still interested I think you have some TBI units (one or two i hear...) And had called dibs on the other prototype awhile back, if you still want to test one out it's yours.

Boards come in batches of three, I'll keep the third on hand for troubleshooting

Will keep everyone posted
See post #25....
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Old 04-02-2019, 09:56 AM   #28
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I don't mind being a guinea pig, the only thing that concerns me is how to tap into the injector wiring. The only way I can think of is to actually cut into the wires themselves and that doesn't excite me to much. That harness was $290!

The drive shaft speed sensor shouldn't be a problem and the rest of the wiring is simple.

If nothing else this will give me an excuse to get the Argosy out of the shop on the road. Besides, I still need to resolve the engine shut down issue

Brad
Awesome!

Can you make (or buy) an inline breakout harness?
If you can find the injector connector part numbers and they are still available I might be able to help.
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Old 04-02-2019, 10:03 AM   #29
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Awesome!

Can you make (or buy) an inline breakout harness?
If you can find the injector connector part numbers and they are still available I might be able to help.
Were you thinking about something like this KENT MOORE TOOL J-44602-5-3 FUEL INJECTOR TEST ADAPTER ?

I'm not sure if this is the model will fit my injectors or not. Something like this would be great for splicing and testing.
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Old 04-02-2019, 10:47 AM   #30
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Ok, got the parts coming to make a breakout adapter. I bought a NOID light and a injector pigtail adapter. I'll rework the NOID light to connect it to the pigtail which will allow me to splice in the Zemco sensor wiring.

I should have it ready in a week or two. In the mean time I'll go ahead and see about installing the driveshaft speed sensor kit.

Brad
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Old 04-02-2019, 01:10 PM   #31
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Ok, got the parts coming to make a breakout adapter. I bought a NOID light and a injector pigtail adapter. I'll rework the NOID light to connect it to the pigtail which will allow me to splice in the Zemco sensor wiring.

I should have it ready in a week or two. In the mean time I'll go ahead and see about installing the driveshaft speed sensor kit.

Brad
Awesome
Also, pictures? Because I have no idea what a NOID light is, and im curious what your adapter will look like
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Old 04-02-2019, 01:24 PM   #32
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Good stuff!


Brad, I'm planning to mount my speed sensor magnets on the trans brake drum, and bring the bracket off a transmission bolt somewhere so the whole assembly is fixed and moves together.
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Old 04-02-2019, 01:32 PM   #33
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Awesome
Also, pictures? Because I have no idea what a NOID light is, and im curious what your adapter will look like
NOID light

injector pigtail

Basically I'm going to break the NOID light so the light doesn't function, connect the pigtail to the two pins of the NOID light, connect the NOID light pins to the Argosy TBI harness and then plug the pigtail connector onto the injector in the Argosy. I'll then be able to connect the sensor wires from the Zemco board to the two pins from the NOID light. Kind of a Rub Goldberg arrangement but it should work.

My only other concern is whether or not the board you're building will add any load or resistance to the injector that would affect it's operation?

Brad
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Old 04-02-2019, 01:39 PM   #34
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Good stuff!

Brad, I'm planning to mount my speed sensor magnets on the trans brake drum, and bring the bracket off a transmission bolt somewhere so the whole assembly is fixed and moves together.
Steve,

Not having a brake drum (hmm, I wonder where it went?!) I'll just add the magnets to the fixed portion of the drive shaft which is supported by the carrier bearing and is connected directly the transmission.

My Argosy has a short 30" fixed drive shaft that connects to the transmission supported by a carrier bearing, then connects to the slip jointed drive shaft that connects to the pinion shaft of the differential.

I think it would be easier to fasten the magnets to the drive shaft than it would be to the brake drum.

Brad
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Old 04-02-2019, 05:09 PM   #35
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Ha, LOL.
Assumed that was a spare of something!



Yes, driveshaft is normal place.
The magnets had double sided tape on them if I remember correctly, and then little tabs for the securing wire they supply. Not sure how good that 35 yo double-sided will be now...

On my last setup, I had the magnets on the CV joint of my Mini... and I can tell you, THAT was not fun to fit!


Oh, and I found a box of Zemco units...

A-Hem... I may have been a little overzealous with my collecting...
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Old 04-02-2019, 06:03 PM   #36
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Injector wire taps

Gentlemen, on the issue of breakout harnesses and tapping the EFi injector harness, I have spent a seemingly daunting number of hours looking at the problem. Casper Electronics makes a number of harness adapters that could be spliced if you know your injector connector type (EV1, EV6, etc.), but no harness breakouts that I can find. Realize that in many installations, access is difficult and space is limited, particularly with TBi systems. In my case (Fitech Go EFI 400), I found single wire taps to be extremely effective. They function on the "needle jab" method often used for diagnosing complex wired systems or adding daughter boards. These gadgets carefully align the wire of interest with a fine probing sharp tip which pierces the insulation and provides contact for the secondary wire. They are readily removable when needed and the resulting hole in the insulation (only pierces from one side to the wire center) is readily sealed with silicone or PVC/vinyl cement, should you need to remove the tap. In general, these devices only pierce the insulation and move the wire to either side - in other words they don't significantly damage the target wire. The tapping connector is well sealed against moisture for both the tap and the secondary wire connection. Finally they take up little space and can be assembled in very tight places.

My favorite which includes three different wire sizes - you'll probably use the smallest:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

A somewhat larger version that uses a flip approach is:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

There are also two wire units that could be used to tap the two injector lead wires with one tap, but I'd recommend the single. Finally, as you make a breakout cable to the Zemco adapter, I'd suggest using a shielded wire to about EMI pickup.
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Old 04-03-2019, 05:36 AM   #37
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Gentlemen, on the issue of breakout harnesses and tapping the EFi injector harness, I have spent a seemingly daunting number of hours looking at the problem. Casper Electronics makes a number of harness adapters that could be spliced if you know your injector connector type (EV1, EV6, etc.), but no harness breakouts that I can find. Realize that in many installations, access is difficult and space is limited, particularly with TBi systems. In my case (Fitech Go EFI 400), I found single wire taps to be extremely effective. They function on the "needle jab" method often used for diagnosing complex wired systems or adding daughter boards. These gadgets carefully align the wire of interest with a fine probing sharp tip which pierces the insulation and provides contact for the secondary wire. They are readily removable when needed and the resulting hole in the insulation (only pierces from one side to the wire center) is readily sealed with silicone or PVC/vinyl cement, should you need to remove the tap. In general, these devices only pierce the insulation and move the wire to either side - in other words they don't significantly damage the target wire. The tapping connector is well sealed against moisture for both the tap and the secondary wire connection. Finally they take up little space and can be assembled in very tight places.

My favorite which includes three different wire sizes - you'll probably use the smallest:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

A somewhat larger version that uses a flip approach is:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

There are also two wire units that could be used to tap the two injector lead wires with one tap, but I'd recommend the single. Finally, as you make a breakout cable to the Zemco adapter, I'd suggest using a shielded wire to about EMI pickup.
Hi Frank, welcome to Airforums

I guess I'm not a fan of any sort of wiring connector that pierces the insulation with the expectation that it's only going contact the wire and not cut anything. I've removed way to much PO wiring on vehicles where pierce type connectors where used that damaged the existing wire, some to the point where they broke apart in my hand.

I guess I would rather just take the time to build a breakout or adapter cable that performs the same function. Of course that's just my $0.02.....

Do you own an 82 240 or are you looking for one? I didn't realize Airstream made 240s after 79.

Brad
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Old 04-03-2019, 09:01 AM   #38
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Thanks for chiming in Frank (frank is the other guy I will be sending a test board to)

I agree the single needle type are far superior to the "slice n dice" type

IMO, the best way is to splice, wrapping the wires together with a much finer wire, solder, and heat shrink, potting the gap between the two wires with epoxy, but that's obviously for when committing.


Brad, on your question of will this load the injectors (I assume you meant injector drivers)
That's a great question, I don't think there's anything to worry about

This is the equivalent of putting about 100,000 ohms across the injector, which itself is about 10 ohms, so we're only sapping about a hundredth of a percent of the power

According to simulations the circuit works, and only draws a couple hundred microamps from the injector signals

Emi is something I hadn't thought of, and a good thought. A twisted shielded cable would benefit anything nearby (I'm more worried about injector signals messing up other things than I am about other things messing up this circuit)
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Old 04-03-2019, 09:15 AM   #39
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Brad, Generically I agree with you on damage to wires generated by the majority of the clip on taps used in automobile add-on wiring. These usually take the form of a cutting edge with a modest slot in the center. These slice through about 320 degrees of the wire surrounding insulation and cut throughout least 25 percent of the wire core or more since they are not sized to the wire gauge nor well aligned to the wire itself. The point probe is inherently better aligned to the centerline of the wire and - in cross-sections I have examined - push the wire to either side as opposed to the guillotine approach of the more common parts store units. In my case and I believe with both Ford and GM TBi bodies space is a serious premium unless the TBi unit and harness is removed from the vehicle to work on it. For the aftermarket FiTech self learning EFi systems, to access the injector plug requires significant disassembly. There are no FiTech breakout harnesses available and so this seemed a useful solution.

As to the 82 240, put me in the looking-for category. Two years ago, I just missed an 82 240 and was told by the seller that less than 10 were made in that year and that they were the last.
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Old 04-03-2019, 09:25 AM   #40
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Rob, my EMI comment is related to the difficulty several users are having installing Fitech EFI systems on previously carbureted engines. Often there is little EMI shielding in the ignition systems and the Fitech computer is mounted in the throttle body. But it appears that the main EMI interference is effecting the Handheld Control Units mounted inside the driver cabin and connected by a long cable to the ECU at the throttle body. In several cases a braided wire shield over the connecting cables has eliminated the problem. But, I agree, here it isn't a problem - just overkill on my part. (plus I have a spool of shielded 20 gauge ...)
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