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Old 06-02-2016, 12:31 AM   #1
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Will paper air filter change dynamics of engine with K&N filter?

I removed my Banks Power air cleaner and found a very dirty looking filter in there. Then I realized that it's a K&N air filter and is probably dark from the oil used in it.

My old pal Ron used to tell me that paper is the way to go, since he was a mechanic and racer. I've read all the opinions about both, so I'm not interested in discussing that aspect of either.

What I would like to know is if changing to paper will affect the timing and TBI adjustments and whatnot. He used to tell me that the tuning needs to be changed because paper will constrict air flow more than a K&N, so you have to adjust the carb and such. So, what's the deal? Can I just replace with paper and call it a day, or will I need to do something else? If so, then I'll just leave it.
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Old 06-02-2016, 12:45 AM   #2
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K&N filters do not filter well unless they are dirty. The dark stuff you see is dirt. I owned a repair shop for 40 years and saw several motors damaged by using K&N filters. Personally, I would go back to paper.
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Old 06-02-2016, 12:48 AM   #3
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If the filter is red its good, dark brown or black or lighter like white or gray and the filter needs serviced. Carbs are picky about changes in general. It sounds to me you need to clean and re oil your filter. If your not sure how call banks power at 1 (800) 601-8072 and talk to them.
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Old 06-02-2016, 06:11 AM   #4
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The GM TBI system has somewhat of a self learning mode so minor adjustments are made based on sensor readings. Those parameters are saved until the PCM loses battery power at which point it learns all over again.

I'm speculating here but my guess changing back to paper will likely not be an issue, especially after you run the engine for a few miles and since your coach came with a paper filter originally I think you'll be ok.

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Old 06-02-2016, 07:53 AM   #5
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The K&N filter is great fro stopping bugs and birds but NO GOOD at filtering dirt. I used them on my Banks converted 87 diesel and then again on my 97 diesel. On the east coast with very little fine dirt or dust in the air things looked great. However while in the south west I opened it up to check and found sand downstream of the filter in the air tube leading to the intake manifold. I changed back to paper that day and never looked back.

They claim greater air flow and yes that is true but at the cost of aspirating dirt through the engine that is not a good deal. All my trucks have a boast gauge. As long as I can produce max. boast there is no shortage of air flow.
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Old 06-02-2016, 08:33 AM   #6
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If the K&N is just a slip in element, I'd say go back to a paper filter. However, if it is a complete intake replacement setup, you would be better served by cleaning or replacing with a new K&N filter and add a sock cover for that filter number. The sock or pre-filter, takes care of all the fine material and keeps the main filter much cleaner and will last much longer between cleanings. Plus it is very easy to clean and put back on.
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Old 06-02-2016, 08:50 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pappy19 View Post
If the K&N is just a slip in element, I'd say go back to a paper filter. However, if it is a complete intake replacement setup, you would be better served by cleaning or replacing with a new K&N filter and add a sock cover for that filter number. The sock or pre-filter, takes care of all the fine material and keeps the main filter much cleaner and will last much longer between cleanings. Plus it is very easy to clean and put back on.
What is the advantage of putting a "sock" to capture the fine dirt, an equivalent of a paper filter, in front of the K&N just to keep the K&N clean. If the K&N can't d the job, and my experience proved that to me, replace it.
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Old 06-02-2016, 09:38 AM   #8
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The computer will adjust to the tiny difference that the filter will make at full throttle.

On a fuel injected engine, the upstream restriction is effectively all but meaningless at anything other than full throttle.

(An upstream obstruction will affect a carbureted engines tuning more by making the mixture more rich)

In the scheme of things the MINUSCULE amount of power that a K&N style filter offers over paper is not worth the trade off in cleanliness.


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Old 06-02-2016, 10:10 AM   #9
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I've been running K&N Filters for about 30 years. Can not calculate the amount of $$$ I've saved over the years.

Never had to worry about Adjusting Carbs to replacing with the reusable filter. Just clean it as recommended and don't over oil it. Over oiling is the only problem I've heard of, which could effect the Mass Air Sensor.

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Old 06-02-2016, 10:31 AM   #10
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Ok, so the answer I was seeking is that by replacing the K&N with a paper element will not change the engine dynamics very much, and will self adjust eventually.

It is just a drop in filter, so I can easily get the paper replacement.

I'm going to try it until my next oil change and see how it works.

Thank you all.
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Old 06-02-2016, 11:41 AM   #11
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The computer will adjust instantly (milliseconds) by altering the air fuel mixture to satisfy the the desired reading from the oxygen sensor.

Computers do "map" over time, but extensive remapping is not going to be required for this tiny change.


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Old 06-02-2016, 09:18 PM   #12
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I ran K&N filters in my Toyota 4-Runner, and before that, my Subaru's.
No issues with them, they did what they were supposed to; as long as I cleaned it per instructions at least twice a year.
I don't have one in my new Ford yet, because of the cost, and just lazyness, still using the Ford filter.

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Old 06-03-2016, 09:24 AM   #13
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FWIW-

http://www.nicoclub.com/archives/kn-vs-oem-filter.html


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Old 06-04-2016, 02:36 AM   #14
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Will paper air filter change dynamics of engine with K&N filter?

Most miles are at part throttle. A lower restriction filter "may" help when engine demand is higher.

For the number of grade ascents my rig makes in a year, these filter types keep the balance tipped against them.

I first used K&N more than thirty years ago. One MUST be diligent about maintenance. I'd say they were more effective in the era of ThermoQuads and QuadraJets when those massive secondaries opened. It was certainly easier to tune for part throttle with an oiled filter.

With EFI it seems pointless. I'd never put anything but paper on my diesel.
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Old 09-01-2016, 08:52 AM   #15
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Is K&N original equipment in a 81 Isuzu TD?

Getting the rusted nut off and getting it out of the bell housing around it was strangely difficult given the amount of space in the whole vehicle.

I have used K&N filter in my Honda element for 160k miles. In the southwest, a paper filter can and will be dirty in a day on a dusty offroad or even in the city when there are dust storms. I would be changing paper filters monthly.

Does the engine oil get dirtier faster from increased dirt? yeah, probably.

Does it matter to engine life? someone more qualified can answer this
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Old 09-01-2016, 09:00 AM   #16
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I can't answer your question, I'm only offering s simple white glove test.

Remove air filter.

Using a spotless piece of white cloth wipe the inside of the tube downstream of the filter.

White cloth dirty or positively as clean as it went in?
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Old 09-01-2016, 09:21 AM   #17
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This is one of those things that I just don't get. A guy spends $60K on a pickup that is as efficient as the engineers can make it. It has all the latest electronic equipment to make it run optimally given a variety of circumstances. Then the new owner starts adding fancy air filters and the diesel owners add chips that often times voids the warranty. Why? To save a few bucks over many years on air filters? The chips are used because owners believe that the engineers willingly cheat owners by not providing the power they know they can get from the new engine. Really?

If it works, don't fix it. If it didn't work I think, to remain competitive, the manufacturers would change it. J Morgan provided an interesting article worth reading.
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Old 09-01-2016, 04:22 PM   #18
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I have used one on both our 'Burb's....I also routed a 'cold air intake', which helps more than the K&N.

Over oiling is the most common mistake,(looks like the one above is more than a little dry.

Properly cleaned & serviced...


Never had a problem with fouling the MAFS or the throttle body.


TETO...Just an old 'knuckle buster' here.

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Old 09-04-2016, 09:47 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyote View Post
Is K&N original equipment in a 81 Isuzu TD?

Getting the rusted nut off and getting it out of the bell housing around it was strangely difficult given the amount of space in the whole vehicle.

I have used K&N filter in my Honda element for 160k miles. In the southwest, a paper filter can and will be dirty in a day on a dusty offroad or even in the city when there are dust storms. I would be changing paper filters monthly.

Does the engine oil get dirtier faster from increased dirt? yeah, probably.

Does it matter to engine life? someone more qualified can answer this
I'm pretty sure it was standard equipment for the Isuzu TD as mine had one and so did a friends; and yes that won't be the last thing that will be strangely difficult to remove or install given the size of the vehicle; try front of rear airbags.

As far as engine oil getting dirtier from increased dirt, unless you forget to replace your dipstick it shouldn't; where it gets bad is the turbo and what dirt and sand do to the turbo compressor blades as they rotate at 100,000 rpm +. I have seen the result from a K&N filter that had hardly any filter element in it, and it's not pretty. Once the sand and dirt get past the turbo it ends up in the cylinders, and that's not a good thing for engine life. Keep the K&N clean and oiled with maybe as suggested, a sock over it, and you should be good.

I'm working on the manual thing for you.

Cheers
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Old 09-04-2016, 10:25 PM   #20
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install one if these https://www.amazon.com/WIX-Filters-2...SIN=B0014BI1KA
It will tell you at a glance when you need to service your filter.

My filter has a hanger mount supporting the tube 6" or 8" before the filter. Normally you have to loosen the support and maneuver the tube around to remove the filter. There is a short flex hose at the other end of the tube going into the turbo. It is probably tired after 35 years. I bought a foot of 3" silicon hose and replaced that hose. I then cut the steel tube about 3" on the filter side of the support clamp. 3" of the silicon hose and two hose clamps makes it real easy to service the filter without disturbing the rest of the steel tube.
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