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Old 05-03-2003, 10:42 PM   #1
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weekend warriors-rear brakes

rear drum brakes on the P-30 are a bitch!
The axle shaft has to be pulled and the drum weighs a ton. I had a leaky oil seal and decided to go all the way, seals, bearings, shoes and wheel cylinders.
Two places here in Austin turned me down on the rear brake job. Did not want to take it to someone I didn't know.
$300.- in parts and lots of my free labor.
I wonder what Mr Goodwrench wants for a job like that.
Best thing they ever did is change to rear disk brakes.
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Old 05-04-2003, 06:54 AM   #2
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heavy

peter

you may want to consider renting an adjustable transmission jack. (if you haven't put it back together yet!)

you could strap the drum to it and jack it back into position. they adjust fore and aft and side to side. making line up easy.

might help ensure you don't damage the oil seal during the reinstall.

i did a rear brake job on a one ton chev a while back, yer right they are HEAVY!

john

ps. nice work btw!
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Old 05-04-2003, 08:12 AM   #3
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thanx for the tip, John but she is all back together. It only took me from 8-10, am and pm that is.
Now I know the job was done right with the good quality parts.
Since the bleeder valves on the rear drums are truly impossible to reach, I also replaced the master cylinder to not have to mess with it again.
Rocky Mountains here we come.......
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Old 05-04-2003, 08:14 AM   #4
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Life must be good for Austin mechanics if they are turning down work. Truck parts are heavy, but there is a lot more space to work than on cars. I hate getting behind the axles on the smaller cars to get springs back on. The drums don't look too bad, how were the shoes, how many miles?

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Old 05-04-2003, 08:50 AM   #5
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I hate drum brakes with a passion!! Did you put them back together right?? I always do mine one side at a time, easier to remember what goes where and if you forget go look at the other side for reference. Some of the newer ones have separate drum and hub assemblies, helps lighten the load. I screwed up on the rears on my F-250 a few years back, put the adjusters in backwards, not a job to do while guzzling beer, I found out!!

Just one comment, correct me if I am wrong but it looks like your jackstands may be a bit undersized, I know, one of the hazards of posting a pic but just an observation from a helpful and concerned friend.

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Old 05-04-2003, 09:35 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chas

...
Just one comment, correct me if I am wrong but it looks like your jackstands may be a bit undersized, I know, one of the hazards of posting a pic but just an observation from a helpful and concerned friend.

Chas
You are right, its just for decorations and to make the cat feel better when she comes to check the work in progress.
I use 2 12 ton bottle jacks. If it would blow the seals, the most it could drop is 2 inches.
Don't ever trust the way you find it, you never know who was guzzling beer the last time.
One of the springs was put in backwards.
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Old 05-04-2003, 09:43 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by 74Argosy24MH
...The drums don't look too bad, how were the shoes, how many miles?

John
The shoes and the drums looked good, except one side was soaked in gear oil. I just replaced all the shoes.
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Old 05-04-2003, 10:07 AM   #8
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good job perer
mr goodwrench is also one to not do work . tryed to get him to do some work and i got that the dont have the special tools required to do the job. go to this other shop. good advice the other shop labor was $20 an hour cheaper. lol
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Old 05-04-2003, 09:08 PM   #9
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Quote:
I also replaced the master cylinder
The rear brakes must have been easy compared to getting to that. Mine is nearly impossible to even check fluid.
I need to flush them and have been wondering how I am going to get the bleeder on.

John
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Old 05-04-2003, 10:10 PM   #10
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The master cylinder is the easy part, once the left front wheel is gone. They make this great air pressure driven brake bleeder that eliminates the third person to pump the pedal. Just one person at the valve and one constantly checking the master with a mirror and filling the reservoir.
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Old 09-06-2004, 07:47 PM   #11
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If you want it done right - do it yourself

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterH-79MH
rear drum brakes on the P-30 are a bitch!........
Best thing they ever did is change to rear disk brakes.
Well, I'm about to find out just what it takes to pull a rear rotor.

The worst thing is - I shouldn't have to.

Before I bought the MoHo at 72,000 miles I paid an extremely questionable shop to change all of the fluids and check a number of things, including all of the brakes - was told the front's were 50%, and the rears 40% - did my own visual on the fronts - they were at least 50%, so I didn't check the rears myself.

Long story short, today a rider in the coach heard "metal to metal" (I can't hardly hear anything at all). I put the unit back up on the jackstands and pulled the curb side rear duals this afternoon. What I found was not a pretty sight.

Now, with 80,000 miles on the coach - I fear that the rear rotor is too deeply gouged to be safely put back in service.

Another example of shoddy "paid for" service (IMO).

COULD the brakes have gone from 40% to less than zero in 9,000 miles? - Possibly, but the fronts have no noticable wear - I'll let ya'll know what a rear rotor costs.

As Peter said in an earlier post - it's hard to find a reputable shop to work on an (almost) antique.

Brake lines and master cylinder will also be replaced.

I hate doing work that "should" have been avoided.

Make note to self - document and get in writing any work done by "shop".
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Old 09-06-2004, 09:16 PM   #12
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Dennis,
Don't forget to check the tags brakes. The master cyl is pretty easy once you pull the sheet metal shield. I also paid a shop to replace the fronts before delivery. $975 later and the brakes were terrible when it arrived. I replaced the leaking master cylinder for about $60 at NAPA and an evening on my back. Thats fixed it for good. It did not make for a good first RV Dealership experience.

I haven't pulled the rears but I did the fronts when I replaced the inner and outer bearings a few months ago. First side took about an hour and a half and the second took about 45 minutes.
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Old 09-07-2004, 07:46 AM   #13
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The front are the same as the rear, probably even the same pads, just an extra tire on each side to deal with. Block it up well, that is a lot of weight. Being as the mechanic did such a thorough job I would pull the rear axle cover while it is apart. Gear lube is cheap and if there is a lot of crap in the housing you can also clean the axle tubes. Don't forget jack shaft gaskets.

John
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Old 09-07-2004, 08:24 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 74Argosy24MH
..... pull the rear axle cover while it is apart. Gear lube is cheap and if there is a lot of crap in the housing you can also clean the axle tubes. Don't forget jack shaft gaskets.
Well, I got an ugly surprise today....and halloween is still two months away.

I pulled the caliper and pads - the previous mentioned mechanic may have been right with his comment about 40% brakes left - too bad it was all on the inside pad.

Does anyone have a comment on the outside pad being totally disintegrated and the inside pad still having 50% left?

I have a rebuilt caliper, a good set of pads, and gaskets, seals, and a new rotor coming tomorrow.

Things came apart relatively easily - the axel shaft simply pulled out by hand (the differential was serviced just a few months ago when the transmission was rebuilt, so fluid is still good). The differential service consisted of pulling the rear differential cover, cleaning and inspecting, resealing the cover and filling with new fluid.
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Old 09-07-2004, 08:33 PM   #15
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I'm stuck...

Shown below is the backing nut that secures the hub on the bearings.

From what I've read, to seat the bearings, I tighten the nut to 50 foot-lbs, back off 1/4 turn, tighten until the hub just starts to stop turning freely, and then back off just until one of the lock slots aligns with a tab.

Any comments?

I would appreciate input on how to torque the backing nut - do I make a tool to fit the slots? - can I rent one? -- better off just buying one?

Anyone been here and figured it out already?

Thanks.
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Old 09-08-2004, 07:32 AM   #16
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You need a socket like the one below. You might be able to find a spanner but it has to be deep enough to get at the inner nut. There are different sizes, I would use a screw driver or punch and hammer to (carefully) take the outer nut off before I searched.

The caliper was hanging to wear one pad. In the other picture you need to clean the 2 machined surfaces at the arrows, both sides. Use a wire brush or wheel and put a light coat of chassis grease on all 4 surfaces on the mount and caliper before you reinstall. I would assemble it the first time with no pads and make sure the caliper moved smoothly.

I've always done bearings by feel, can't help with the torque. Make sure you rotate the hub as you tighten the nut. You will feel it start to tighten up, rock it back and forth a few times. It shouldn't drag but shouldn't be loose.

John
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Old 09-08-2004, 08:04 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 87MH
.........
From what I've read, to seat the bearings, I tighten the nut to 50 foot-lbs, back off 1/4 turn, tighten until the hub just starts to stop turning freely, and then back off just until one of the lock slots aligns with a tab.
...........................
Dennis (Bubba),
Buy the tool!!
I have been there (on a previous MH with rear drums). Since you are getting new rotors, you also have new inner and outer bearings.
If you don't use the proper socket for torquing, the bearing will not seat properly
Been there, done that. After a few turns (going down the road) the bearing will seat and your rotor will be loose, causing your gear oil to leak. Yes, it happened to me. Very freaky situation.
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Old 09-09-2004, 03:30 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterH-79MH
Bubba....Buy the tool!!......
As an update to my “Brake Project” I hope to complete all of the brake work this weekend (IF I can get the new Brake Lines fabricated). Hopefully, I am now complete with the purchase and planning phases of this excercise.

So far, I can offer this - on purchases:

Cost for Brake Work

Scope – Change out curb side rotor, replace both rear calipers, change out all rubber brake hoses (front and rear), install new master cylinder.

New Rotor (curb side) $ 65.00

Rebuilt Caliper Driver Side $ 20.00

Rebuilt Caliper Curb Side $ 20.00

Premium Brake Pads Rear $ 65.00

New Master Cylinder $ 95.00

Spindle Socket for Axle Nut $ 20.00

Rotor Hub Rear Seal $ 25.00

Bearing Grease $ 5.00

Brake Caliper Slide Grease $ 10.00

DOT 4 Synthetic Brake Fluid $ 25.00

Synthetic Power Steering Fluid $ 10.00

Synthetic Axle Fluid $ 10.00

Rotor/Hub Press – Shop Charge $ 20.00

Brake Vacuum Bleed Tool $ 40.00


Total $430.00


The cost of the new Rubber Brake Lines (all to be replaced) has not yet been determined.

Also, to date, 6 hours of my time have been expended.


This entire project is a good example of “while you’re at it” philosophy.

I had to replace the rear caliper since I wasn’t really sure what caused the outside pad failure. Since I had to bleed the entire brake system, might as well replace all of the fluid. With new fluid, the 18 year old rubber hoses need to be tossed, “while I’m at it”, a NEW (not rebuilt) master cylinder will be added. The failure of the one brake pad has led to some pretty heavy preventative maintenance, but now I have a good base line, and one more “worry line” – the brake system – has been crossed off of the probable potential failure list on my “almost antique” 8 ton MoHo.

I have purchased Valvoline SynPower Synthetic Brake Fluid DOT 4. The new Brake Fluid will displace the existing brake fluid (which, BTW, looked pretty good – good color, normal odor).

The power steering fluid will be displaced with Valvoline's SynPower Power Steering Fluid since the brakes are operated by Chevy’s (in)famous “Hydroboost” system .

I think synthetics are at the point that they have proven themselves to be superior to crude derived refinery products. This will be the first time I have tried the synthetics – will keep all of you posted.
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Old 09-10-2004, 07:31 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 87MH
As an update to my “Brake Project” I hope to complete all of the brake work this weekend (IF I can get the new Brake Lines fabricated). Hopefully, I am now complete with the purchase and planning phases of this excercise.......
All hope for finishing this weekend has vanished.......

Report on Screwup #1

Had to return the first hub socket purchased - No P-30 was listed anywhere on the list of hub sockets available (O'Reilly's, AutoZone, or NAPA)....the store manager and I gave it our best shot....first hub socket I brought home was one with 4 "Castles" as pictured in John's (74Argosy24MH) picture as posted previously.....the '86 P-32 has the same OD as most, but there are 6 "Castles" on the hub - not 4 as in John's picture...I smartened up a bit (should have taken John's advice to start with) and brought the axel nut with me on this second trip to the parts store....luckily, we found a match on the shelf -- listed as "3/4 ton 4 WD Hub".....go figure.

Now...I had the correct hub socket - things went together relatively smoothly - I cleaned and hand packed the inner and outer bearings with the new grease. No apparent damage or wear to the bearings, so I went back in with the original bearings - will let you know if that was a mistake or not.

The outer bearing rests on 4 raised "dimples" cut into the hub for the outer mount (The inner Hub Nut applies compresive force to the race, so the "dimples" are just to hold it in place while mounting). The outer bearing is held in place on the back side by a large compression key ring - remove this ring from the inside of the hub to remove the bearing. The inner bearing lands in the hub, and is held in place by the rear hub seal.

So far, no problems...put the hub/rotor assembly on the axel, torqued the inner hub nut, backed it off, installed the keeper ring and the outer (keeper) hub nut, and thought "Damn, I'm good". The axed shaft slipped into place next - I had to fiddle with this for a while - there is very little "slop" in the drive axel to hub machine slots and it took a bit of tongue biting to find a place that it "slipped right in". Noticed it was starting to get dark, so I put the hub end cap on temporarily to keep the dust and dew out of my freshly packed bearings.

I once again got below the belly of the beast and started to remove brake lines.......did I mention it was getting late? Or, maybe I'm getting so old I just can't see anymore.

Report on Screwup #2

From what little I could see (or feel) it appeared as if the brake line was securely clamped to the caliper landing assembly by what I assumed was a stud, so I started to back the (relatively large) nut off to remove the brake line.....BIG mistake.

After I got the brake line into some light (and cleaned and defogged my glasses so I could see) I saw there was a push clip that actually held the hose assembly onto the bracket.....no problemo, thought I, I'll just remove the clip and reinstall the bracket.......wrong.

What I thought was a stud is actually a bolt -- with the head of said bolt safely tucked well up behind and hidden by the hub/rotor assembly which I had recently reassembled and torqued down.

I figured that right there was a good quitting point for the night.

Like drops of oil from the gaskets you can't quite properly torque.....so pass the days of our lives.

To Be Continued.....
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Old 09-10-2004, 07:42 AM   #20
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Dennis,
I hate it when stuff like that happens. If it makes you feel better I had to install and un-install the brakes on my VW three times before I got things "right". It's always something when you're trying a big repair for the first time.

One question: do you think your dragging brakes contributed to your mileage issues earlier in the year?
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