Airstreams and Emissions...

[bkahler]

Ok, got another question. On the top of the Performer 2.0 intake manifold there is what I believe to be a large vacuum port. In the attached picture it has a pipe nipple screwed into it that has hose barbs on it.



A little back ground is probably in order. The original motor in the Argosy was removed at some time in the distant past to put in a race car. The motor that I had the shop rebuild came from an 81 Chevy 1-ton dually. The block is actually a car "High Perf" block. When the shop built the motor they just transferred the parts from the dually over to the new build.

My guess is I should remove the fitting and plug the port since the Edelbrock carburetor has the needed vacuum ports. Am I missing anything?

Thanks!

Brad

[Keyair]

Brad.
Our MH has an edelbrock carb on the stock manifold.

There is a vacuum port on the intake manifold, behind the carb on passenger side.
It feeds the transmission modulator(the upward facing connector)... and thats all I know so far... at least one of the pipes(rh side) goes nowhere and was not attached or plugged... and the other goes to the vacuum step feed(I think!), but there is also the vacuum pipe that comes from the rear of the carb....
Still trying to figure it all out!

[bkahler]

Originally Posted by Keyair

Brad.
Our MH has an edelbrock carb on the stock manifold.

There is a vacuum port on the intake manifold, behind the carb on passenger side.
It feeds the transmission modulator(the upward facing connector)... and thats all I know so far

I will be using a TH400 for a while before I get around to rebuilding and installing the 4L80E so I assume the port on my 2161 manifold will be used for that.

... at least one of the pipes(rh side) goes nowhere and was not attached or plugged

You probably ought to fix that

... and the other goes to the vacuum step feed(I think!), but there is also the vacuum pipe that comes from the rear of the carb....
Still trying to figure it all out!

Isn't the port on the rear of the carb the PCV port?

[Keyair]

Yeah, I fixed that vacuum leak... I could hear it, but I took me a while to find it as it was tucked under the throttle bracket!

The PCV pipe feeds into the front of the carb in the center lower port.

As for that vac pipe out of the rear of the carb...

I know we might get slightly off topic, but its connected..

On my search I found this little gem tucked under the drivers side floor..




It is a water or water/methanol injection system called a Vari-Flow Injector...
I have the box, wires, pipes and pump still there, altho I did pull out a 20' pipe that went back to the rear of the MH, which I assume was the water feedpipe which either went to the freshwater tank or a seperate tank... both of which are long gone!

Some digging turned up this info contained in a patent application...

For example in the U.S. Pat. No. 4,364,370, issued Dec. 21, 1982 to Byron D. Smith et al there is taught a water injection system which injects water, alcohol, or a mixture of water and alcohol into the air intake of an internal combustionengine by the use of an electric motor driven pump that delivers the fuel under pressure to a nozzle mounted on the cover of an air cleaner above the air inlet of the carburetor. A similar system is taught in the U.S. Pat. No. 4,448,153, issued May15, 1984 to Robert J. Miller.

Other systems for injection of liquid into an internal combustion engine are taught in the U.S. Pat. No. 4,397,268, issued Aug. 9, 1983 to Charles L. Brown which uses a venturi effect to draw moisture from a remote liquid supply tank through aporous venturi tube positioned within the air flow inlet to the internal combustion engine. A similar system is taught in the U.S. Pat. No. 4,418,654, issued Dec. 6, 1983 to Kodo Keium.

A different type of system is taught in the U.S. Pat. No. 4,306,520, issued Dec. 22, 1981 to David E. Slaton which uses engine vacuum in an air cleaner chamber to draw water from the chamber into the air cleaner housing of the internalcombustion engine.

Another type of system on the market today is a system manufactured by MPG Performance Products of Newberry Park, Calif. and distributed under the trade name of Vari-Flow Injector. This system consists of a twelve-volt water pump that develops61/2 pounds per square inch pressure and a sensing control that monitors the engine load. When the system is turned on the water pump provides water to the sensing control at the given pressure with the sensing control including a valve that iscontrolled by engine manifold vacuum. Other water injection systems are available on the marketplace and are being sold by the J.C. Whitney & Co. of Chicago, Ill. The various systems heretofore mentioned in the patents and on the marketplace todaygenerally involve positive water injection by electronic control using pumps and nozzles to accomplish the injection. From the applicants knowledge and from his prior art search, no system can be found using the applicants novel venturi injector systemusing the novel venturi injector in combination with the novel liquid level control chamber as hereinafter described.


I wonder if it worked, or indeed works still if I figured it out and connected it!

[bkahler]

Interesting little gimmick

Does it look like all the components are there? From your description it sounds like it's still hooked up with the exception of the actual connection to the water tank.

Thinking about it, it should go well with your Zemco computer

Which reminds me, I picked up these recently:



One for the Argosy and one for my 2000 F250. I never know which way I'm going so hopefully these will help

Brad

[Keyair]

LOL... we think alike Brad!
I think its all there, so later I will have to fiddle!

Oh... and Zemco Compasses...
Who would want one of those...
Except us!

[bkahler]

I preferred that model over the one with the road stripe but he only had the one with the vehicle. I think the Zemco units fit the style of the motorhome better than the more modern units that are out there.

Kids and their toys....

Brad

[Jenniflow]

Hey Keyair,

You are such a treasure, I am so grateful for all you've done and documented here. Thank you! I'm hoping you can help me wrap my mind around the technicalities and expenses I am about to incur if I choose to keep my moho in CA.

I am just getting smacked in the head with my denseness. I have been listening to the assurances of folks who don't have direct experience with these issues who have been assuring me I can always get a non-op for my 1986 345 classic MH if it doesn't smog. I just called CA and they told me there is no such thing available any more in CA and it must smog by current standards and must be registered in CA if it's to stay in CA longer than 20 days.

So did you retrofit your classic in order to meet that standard? I'm not a mechanic so I'm having trouble following the specifics here. I installed a Banks system 10 years ago, but I believe I'm missing a serpentine, was it? pump? Part of the exhaust or emissions system? I've lost the piece of paper that had the name of that part on it, I'm embarrassed to say. I've never tried to locate one and and I don't know if I really need it to pass.

Is there any way you can explain what I'd need to do and how much I'd have to pay someone else to bring my coach up to California's standards? I couldn't do the work myself but I can help find parts, etc.

Thanks so much,

[Keyair]

Jenniflow!
Good to see you!

I know I am a treasure...
How?
Everywhere my girlfriend takes me they say "Wow, where on earth did you dig him up?".

LOL, anyway, joking aside...
Don't worry about not understanding...
Sounds like you are missing a smog pump(airpump).

[Jenniflow]

Originally Posted by Keyair

Sounds like you are missing a smog pump(airpump).

Actually I do remember now someone mentioned something about a pulley that I'm missing.

But my question really is was the basic equipment design from the 1980s enough to satisfy them when you had yours smogged? If not, what did u need to do? Or do you register yours in another state, Keyair?

[Jenniflow]

OK, I have now had several conversations with various California DMV folks and have asked them very specific questions about what they are and are not looking for. Here's what they all insist: Current regs require a retrofit, if necessary, to bring all RVs registered for the road to meet what they call the CA or 50-state emissions standard. The only exception they were willing to grant was for a Planned Non-Op for a vehicle that is set off the road, out of sight of the road, and preferably behind a gate, so as to indicate clearly that there is "no intent to drive," a phrase I heard them repeat. One woman told me that if a cop sees a coach in a driveway with expired tags - i.e., it may actually be registered as a non-op - he's within his right to charge that you do in fact have an intent to drive it and it's not appropriately registered. She says that this derives from the concern that the RV is inhabitable.

My guess is this is partly about juridictions and that there is otherwise no governing body over RVs that are being lived in. CA is vigilant about code issues relating to residences. Also, it's a great way to raise income.

So, whereas it may once have been that you can bring the vehicle up to the standards at which it was originally built, it must now meet the 50-state or CA standard and that may mean some retrofitting with new emissions equipment. They told me I can take mine to one of the stations listed on the DMV site where they smog and do this kind of work. Sounds like a bit of a conflict of interest but there you are. Oh, there are smog stations where they don't do the work, too, so you can get tested by someone who does not stand to profit from the work they might claim you need.

Here's where you can look for the various kinds of smog stations:
Station List

So that's the report from the DMV front. I hope that doesn't ruin anyone's dinner. I sure found the news bracing!

[92landyacht]

I'd move.... Way cheaper in the long run.

[Keyair]

Jenniflow.
From what I know and read on the CA smog website, that info you were given is wrong...
DMV know nothing...
Here is the info and where to get it!

Whilst the actual emissions level are set by county, the inspection process is the same.
It states that there are two steps..

Visual and tailpipe test.

Visual test is as it sounds.. Read Page 13, where it specifically states that the Emissions equipment shall be as OEM either CA or Federal equiped.
There is NO mention of updating or modifying a Federal Vehicle to CA standards.
Everything that was fitted when it left the factory should be still there and functional.

You MH is over the weight limit for a ASM or rolling road test, so it will be test by the TSI(Two Speed Inspection) method... that is at idle and at 2500rpm.
See page 10.

Here is a direct link to the draft 2013 Smog info PDF...
http://www.smogcheck.ca.gov/80_BARRe...ual%202013.pdf

[Jenniflow]

Ok, so then I called the Referee Office which is the decision-making office about what to do if your vehicle doesn't smog (and which can get you up to around $500r if your vehicle doesn't smog and needs repairs) and he said NO, you do NOT need to meet current CA standards, as long as your coach is doing at least as well as it was designed to do originally.

If, as a CA resident, you were bringing in a new vehicle (<7500 miles) and had somehow disabled the smog system, you would have to bring it up to CA standards. But if you are bringing an older vehicle from another part of the world it does NOT have to, it just has to live up to being its original self.

I have now talked to 5 different people, all apparently very experienced in this area - DMV techs, Test-Only smog techs (who have nothing to gain by failing you and requiring repairs), and now a Referee Office tech and each of them has told me something somewhat different.

I am now going to call a local RV service office to see what they do to smog their used vehicles, because going through the government agency websites that direct you to authorized smogging stations is turning up a lot of people who don't seem to understand about what Airforums drivers are likely to be running into!

[Jenniflow]

Oops, just as you were posting yours I was posting my last one! You're right! They have no idea what they're talking about. Sorry for confusing the issue Keyair. But the news is good!

[Keyair]

Oh, here is the current regs...
Page 9 is the visual statement of what should be present and correct!

http://www.smogcheck.ca.gov/80_BARRe...08-09%20V3.pdf

[Keyair]

No prob!
Good, I am glad you found someone knowledgable at last!

Here is the bottom line.
Make sure everything is there, connected as it should be, and functional.

Get a good knowledgable shop to check/clean/rebuild/set up the carb to pass smog and you will be good!

One thing I suggest you have done...
Repplace EVERY rubber pipe in the fuel system, or at least have it checked... The new fuels rot the older pipes out and you will fail on leaks... eithe fuel or air leaks will fail you.

[Jenniflow]

OK, now I am on the schedule for emissions testing in Novato but I know I get an automatic fail without an intact original emissions system. I suspect I'm going to need to find a serpentine pulley because I'm pretty sure that's what I'm missing. Does that sound familiar to anyone? And if so, I guess I'll ask whoever is parting out their coach - I remember someone was - to see if someone around here has one. If that doesn't ring any bells with anyone I guess I'll go and get failed so they can tell me what I'm missing.

Problem is, I have very little time to handle this before I'm away for a long time, so getting a part asap would be ideal.

[Keyair]

Jenniflow..
My books tells all....
In fact in 1986, the GM Class A Motorhome cahssis emissions were identical for Federal and CA equipment!

So, here is the list.
No Computer, Quadrajet 4 barrel carb, timing set at 4deg @700rpm.
PCV, ACL, AIS(Air Injection with 2 airpumps), EGR, EVAP, SPK, and no o2 sensor or catalytic converter.

Your MH should have 2 airpumps for the AIS system, one is on the passenger side lower front of the engine, and one on the top between the alternator and AC compressor.

RockAuto's site states that they carry both airpumps..

A-1 CARDONE Part # 32285 Reman.
Upper Pump; with Federal Emissions; Pump Stamped JK $77.80
-1 CARDONE Part # 32244 Reman.
Lower Pump; with Federal Emissions; Pump Stamped FT $84.80

Both are shown without a pulley.
I suspect that there was an issue with one or both of the pumps, and they were bypassed...

[Jenniflow]

Yay! Excellent. Thanks so much! Now I can go in, knowing exactly how they can and can't rip me off! I have an appointment on Monday. Hopefully, we can get it all working soon after. I'll need a tune-up and I'm hoping for relatively easy sailing on that score.

Then there's the wipers and the master cylinder ... but hey, who needs to brake and see, anyhow?