'74 Argosy engine build

[bkahler]

I'm starting this thread to document the final assembly of my new Argosy 454 engine, running it in on my engine test stand and then the final installation into the Argosy chassis.

Here is a link to the test stand I made last winter for testing a Triumph Spitfire race engine that I built for my wife's race car. The video shows the first start of the engine where I ran it for 20 minutes to break in the flat tappet cam.

Spitfire test run

I'm now modifying the test stand to mount the 454. Once mounted I'll get it running and perform the initial break-in of the tappets. Yeah I know, lots of ZDDP! I usually use Brad Penn break-in oil and have been very pleased with the results.

I'll add more as progress is made.

Brad

[LimeyRich]

That is really nice work Brad! It's so good I can even forgive you and your wife for racing Spitfires, instead of big Triumphs! Anyway the
D production/D modified cars were completely outclassed when the 240Z's showed up.
Sadly the original Standard Triumph factory where all the TR2 line through the TR6 line were built is just a lumpy, desolate, Coventry parking lot now. The industrial area is quiet. I'm not sure if the Spitfires and TR7s came off the line in that factory,they might have, I just do not know. I do know that just up the street my great uncle Bertie's "Coventry Hood and Sidecar" factory is just an empty red brick warehouse now. Every convertible top ever put on an English car, since 1920, and most European models came out of that factory. Only my cousin Dave still lives there, ain't progress wonderful ?
Looking forward to seeing what you do with that 454!
Oh Well. All the best, Cheers! Drink a pint to the memory! Rich.

[bkahler]

What can I say, a 1963 Triumph Spitfire was my first british sports car I've owned Spitfires, TR6s, 1949 2000 Roadster, 53 Mayflower and currently drive a 64 TR4. The TR4 is by far the best performing of the bunch.

It is not appealing to me to go to all the effort of installing the engine in the Argosy chassis and then possibly finding out the engine has issues. Of course I could be jinxing myself because the only time I test ran one of the race engines before installing it was also the only time I had a severe oil leak at the front of the oil pan. I had to pull the oil pan to fix the problem. No fun when the engine is in the chassis but relatively easy on the test stand.

I didn't build this engine and while I have no reason to think it might have problems I just feel better knowing that once it's in the chassis it won't have to come back out.

Brad

[Waipio Rim]

Well, if you ever decide that you want to spend more time driving than wrenching: bought my wife's Miata (I know, it's a blatant knockoff of a triumph) new 12 years ago. One glitch since then when the theft deterrent system went haywire. Otherwise it has just been drive, change oil, repeat.

[92landyacht]

Yep, the Miata is a fun car to drive and doesn't have the Lucas wiring issues. British cars have always been fun to drive until they don't.

[Aage]

Twin SU carbs! Ahhhh the memories. I put a pair of those on a Mini 850 I once had 45 years ago, and man did it go!

And so will your moho with a "new" 454! Just curious if you can share with us what the rebuild cost wound up being?

[bkahler]

Originally Posted by Waipio Rim

Well, if you ever decide that you want to spend more time driving than wrenching: bought my wife's Miata (I know, it's a blatant knockoff of a triumph) new 12 years ago. One glitch since then when the theft deterrent system went haywire. Otherwise it has just been drive, change oil, repeat.

My wife got to take a trip with a friend of ours and once she got back getting a Miata was high on her list. She ended up getting a 2001 and she seems to enjoy the heck out of it. Me, I'm sticking with my 64 TR4

Brad

[bkahler]

Originally Posted by Aage

Twin SU carbs! Ahhhh the memories. I put a pair of those on a Mini 850 I once had 45 years ago, and man did it go!

And so will your moho with a "new" 454! Just curious if you can share with us what the rebuild cost wound up being?

The rebuild cost for the Spitfire race motor? Or the rebuild of the 454? The race motor you don't want to know The 454 I haven't stopped spending yet but I'll probably provide a list of what I spent on it.

Brad

[bkahler]

I've been digging through all of the boxes of parts and found that I have a choice between a cast iron thermostat housing and an aluminum housing. I think I'm going to use the cast iron housing shown on the left.

The other fun part has been sorting through all of the brackets that I've collected to try and get the right combination for mounting the A/C pump, PS pump and the alternator. Fortunately I don't have to worry about any smog pumps

[Keyair]

Nice test stand Brad!
Home built?

I had the chance to go up to Willow Springs Raceway last month, and the Spitfire were kicking butt! Stood chatting to the guy who was owning in Group 5 in his Spitfire in qualifying. He stormed away in the final, before something broke in the rear end, and he DNF'd.

Here is a video of that race for your fun!

VARA Big Bore Bash - Nov 4, 2012 - YouTube

[bkahler]

Originally Posted by Keyair

Nice test stand Brad!
Home built?

Thanks!

I built it last winter at the same time I was totally rebuilding my wife's Spitfire race car. I never liked the idea of installing a new motor without knowing if it had problems or not. I built the test stand with the idea of being able to make various mounting plates for different motors. I'm in the process right now of fabricating 454 mounting plates.

I had the chance to go up to Willow Springs Raceway last month, and the Spitfire were kicking butt! Stood chatting to the guy who was owning in Group 5 in his Spitfire in qualifying. He stormed away in the final, before something broke in the rear end, and he DNF'd.

What people are doing with Spitfire race engines is both amazing and scary. The fast guys turn the motors at 10,000+ rpm. We ran the motor I built last winter up to 8,000 rpm and it sounded great. It wasn't until she hit the track at Road Atlanta that we realized I had the timing one tooth off. It revved to 8,000 just fine unfortunately it takes forever to get there when under load

We only raced once last year so I still haven't fixed it and the odds are the car will be sold once I do get it fixed.

Here are two links of video from her in-car camera during the all Triumph feature race. If you watch closely you'll see that she almost never gets out of 3rd gear because it was taking so long to accelerate. It had tons of power (110 hp at 8,000 rpm...factory was 46 hp) just didn't accelerate worth a d*mm.

Mitty 2012 Pt1

Mitty 2012 Pt2

Brad

[bkahler]

Finally got back to working on the test stand. Last night I started fabrication of the main support for the engine motor mounts. The uprights are just tack welded to the support beam for the moment. I need to fab a couple of gusset plates to help keep the uprights from spreading outwards under the weight of the 454.



I'm debating whether to install the existing 7-blade fan or leave the fan off and just use an electric fan in front of the radiator to keep it cool during testing. If I include the mechanical fan then I might be running into a space issue on the test stand. I guess once I get the engine block sitting on the stand I'll know more as to whether I have room or not for the mechanical fan.

With luck I'll have the block sitting on the test stand by the end of this coming weekend.

Stay tuned...

Brad

[bkahler]

Got a few more things done on the test stand yesterday and today.



The radiator is sitting pretty much where it needs to be, all I need to do now is fabricate a couple of mounts for it to sit on and add a couple of diagonal braces to keep it in place. Once the radiator mounts are complete I'll start attaching all of the ancillary equipment like the starter, carburetor, etc.

I also need to fabricate a shield for the back of the motor that covers the flex plate. Last thing I want to do is get wrapped up in that thing

Brad

[92landyacht]

Did you add a support to the back end of the engine? Maybe you tied into that flex plate shield but it's not obvious from the pics. Seems like the engine mounts alone wouldn't support the offset weight of the engine and the legs you've welded in aren't gusseted. I’m just curious as to how that’s going to work. I know that normally the transmission mount supports the back end of the engine and the front engine mount is simply a landing pad that helps control rotational movement from torque effect.

[bkahler]

Originally Posted by 92landyacht

Did you add a support to the back end of the engine?

The rear support was actually more difficult to make than the center engine support. Several odd angles to deal with and had to work around the headers. The rear is hard mounted (no rubber isolation). The last engine I ran on the test stand which was a Triumph Spitfire 4 cylinder had no issues with the rear being hard mounted so I'm hoping the same holds true for the 454. If it was a long term installation I would have tried to figure out how to use a transmission mount but I didn't feel it was worth the effort.

I'm working on sorting out the radiator rubber mount isolators and once I have that done I'll be able to permanently mount the radiator. I'm hoping by mid to late January to be able to try and start the motor. Should be interesting!

Brad

[bkahler]

Made a little more progress over the last week or so. The radiator pedestals have been built. The wood blocks shown in the picture were used to determine height and fit. I've since made steel pedestals and once I finish assembling the front of the engine I'll mount the radiator.



The water pump is mounted finally which now lets me try and sort out the A/C pump mount. Since those parts didn't come with the Argosy when I got it I've had to scrounge for parts. It looks like I'm missing one 5/8" spacer which should be a piece of cake to make on the lathe.



The real challenge is trying to figure this last support brace. It doesn't fit no matter how I try and place it. The only thing I know about the mounting parts that I bought is they came from a 454 powered motorhome. I have no idea what brand of motorhome. The only thing I can think of is whatever 454 it came off of the coach manufacturer must have had something mounted on the engine block where this brace could attach to. I'm pretty sure it is supposed to go from the pump lower adjusting bracket pivot point to somewhere on the intake manifold. My plan is to modify it to go to the opposite side off intake manifold and call it good.



Something else that has me baffled is the 5/8" hose fitting that screws into the intake manifold. It has a restricted orifice. I've never seen that before and I'm wondering if this is normal? The 454 came out of an 81 Chevy 1-ton dually pickup. Is this a normal fitting used in an automotive heating system?



Any suggestions on whether to leave it or replace it with a full flow fitting like the one I have on the water pump?

Thanks!

Brad

[vswingfield]

Originally Posted by bkahler

...

Something else that has me baffled is the 5/8" hose fitting that screws into the intake manifold. It has a restricted orifice. I've never seen that before and I'm wondering if this is normal? The 454 came out of an 81 Chevy 1-ton dually pickup. Is this a normal fitting used in an automotive heating system?

Any suggestions on whether to leave it or replace it with a full flow fitting like the one I have on the water pump?

Thanks!

Brad

Hi Brad,

I've seen those fitting on a lot of 454s. There was one on my 1973 GMC pickup. Apparently you just don't need that much flow through a heater.

[bkahler]

Vaughn, thanks for the info. It's nice to know it's a common occurance. I guess the safe thing to do would be to run it and see how well the heater works. If there isn't enough heat I can always enlarge the bore.

Thanks!

Brad

[bkahler]

Just a quick update with some pictures to show the (slow) progress on the engine build. Finding all of the correct bracketry, nuts & bolts has been a real chore. I had to start from scratch by digging through vehicles at junk yards, ebay, looking at dozens and dozens of pictures and sometimes just plain guessing has gotten me this far.

The A/C mount has been the biggest challenge but I think I'm close. I have to shorten a little round spacer that I made by about .010" and figure out why the compressor seems to be slightly cocked in relation to the crank pulley. I'm beginning to think that the main aluminum casting was just machined that way. I'm not really sure I can do anything about that issue. When I looked at the 310 it seemed to be in a similar orientation.

The eagle eyed among you might have noticed that the A/C belt is rubbing on the power steering pump. I don't have the correct belt and I wanted to get a better feel for the pump pulley to crank pulley issue. Rest assured I will use a power steering pulley on the final installation



The last thing I did was modify the top alternator mount to allow a nice big CS-144 alternator to be fitted. I salvaged two nice looking CS-144 124 amp alternators from a salvage yard for cheap and will be using one on the installation and one as a spare. I'll have them tested to make sure they are good before using either of them.

Surprisingly there are only two real modifications needed to fit the larger alternator. One is to enlarge the hole where the mount bolts to the intake manifold and the other was to bend that same ear slightly to account for the change in elevation of the mount due to the larger alternator. The only other change I made (but didn't need to) was to cut the ear off of the lower spacer. The original alternator had the spacer bolted to the back of the alternator via the ear. The only reason I can think of for the ear being there is to allow for easier installation on the assembly line. But that's pure conjecture.



All that's left to finish up the front of the motor is install the power steering pump, get the correct belts, trim the small spacer and paint various pieces. I figure I'll hold off on the painting until I have the engine running and then when I'm read to install the motor in the Argosy I'll pull the alternator, A/C components and the power steering pump. After that its paint the parts and reassemble back onto the motor.

There are still more odds and ends to do before start up but its getting a little closer each day

[bkahler]

Over the last several months I've been slowly plugging away at finishing the 454 installation on the test stand. I'm closer but still have some things to do. Since I last updated this thread I've finished mounting the pair of 10" cooling fans to the front of the radiator and mounted the radiator on the test stand. I've installed the carburetor, headers (bolted in place), starter, and swapped the valve covers from the 86 345 onto the Argosy motor.



I ran into a little snag this evening while trying to install the starter. When I fabricated the rear engine mount I didn't take into consideration the placement of the starter motor. So a little time with a 4" cutoff wheel and the starter fits



I ordered a nice set of Prestolite spark plug cables and did a test fit this evening and found that they lay on the headers They are silicone and high temp but I don't think that rating applies to having them laying directly on the headers.



The oem spark plug cables that came off of the 86 345 are physically about the same size and also lay on the headers when installed.



The headers themselves were used with this same engine in a 1981 Chevy pickup and had these spark plug cables installed. They are considerably shorter and don't lay on the headers. But their quality is not all that great.



Anyone have headers similar to mine and if so what have you used for spark plug cables?

I still have a bunch of small items to finish up on both the test stand and the engine but until I get the spark plug cable issue resolved I don't think I'll be trying to run the engine.

Brad