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Old 11-09-2009, 10:32 PM   #501
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fiberglass

was some good info that disappeared with the loss of posts tonight, but I even forget who gave me top layer info (fillers) to smooth the outside out, if you can repost please do!!

I did finish up trimming the new work, and one more layer to fill in some voids, its starting to come together. Some sanding tomorrow and it should be pretty close I think.
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Old 11-10-2009, 03:11 AM   #502
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Originally Posted by goransons View Post
was some good info that disappeared with the loss of posts tonight, but I even forget who gave me top layer info (fillers) to smooth the outside out, if you can repost please do!! ....
We lost some posts?

I think you're referring to the post about cab-o-sil. Here's a way too technical description of the stuff - Cab-o-Sil Filler. M5 Cabosil-untreated fumed submicron silica used as an inert filler to thicken thin liquid systems (polyester, urethane, epoxy, dyes and paints. Available in small quantity. EP7965

You can get it many places. I like Aircraft Spruce but they are probably not the cheapest.

DOORGUNNER says when you're using filler on a kayak, mix it into the resin at about 1/3 cab-o-sil to 2/3 wood dust to get a smoother fill than with just wood dust alone. So I suppose using 100% cab-o-sil will be very smooth. And easy to sand.

My limited reading has told me that wood dust and cab-o-sil strengthen epoxy resin, while microballoons weaken it. Microballoons are good for filler where you aren't filling a joint and don't need strength.

I don't know if you're planning to paint over the filled layer. You can see from these photos what resin with wood dust and cab-o-sil mixed in looks like, raw and with glass over it. The take away here is that the fill layer is going to have varying thickness and will therefore vary in color. I don't know what it will look like with just cab-o-sil.

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Old 11-10-2009, 04:42 AM   #503
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anyone know where I can come across one of these TV antenna connects?
you want me to add it to the list? I got one and it was free to me. Brand new still in the plastic.
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Old 11-10-2009, 04:57 AM   #504
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so this final fill... if you are going to use wood dust I suggest you sift it to a very fine powder. I use phenolic micro beads to thicken the epoxy and it works very well in every situation I have put it to. I hope it does not weaken the bond as Zep said, for there are a lot of curved beams and complicated wood work here in Baltimore that were laminated using epoxy thickened with phenolic beads. But I think we are talking about a final finish filler, is that right? Go to the auto body filler area of the auto store and in a tube is some red paste filler. Mirror glaze filler, micro glaze filler, something like that. It will fill the finest of spider cracks. You are probably using that Mister tubby stuff, but PPG makes a line of urethan paints, primer, and filler that will have that surround looking better than it did new. The paint also comes in over a thousand colors. I had the 5053 aluminum in my bathroom matched perfectly. I won't go into all that if you are using the Mister tubby. If you are still debating, I will be glad to give the whole low down tonight.

I will also check out the list of parts you sent me, I think I have everything you are in need of.
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Old 11-10-2009, 05:52 AM   #505
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... if you are going to use wood dust I suggest you sift it to a very fine powder. I use phenolic micro beads to thicken the epoxy and it works very well in every situation I have put it to. I hope it does not weaken the bond as Zep said, ...
The wood dust is a commercial product made for use in epoxy. It's very fine, not sawdust.

The System Three epoxy book talks about fillers. That's where I saw the note about strength of filler material. I don't know if your micro beads are the same material as micro balloons, but their book says micro balloons reduce the strength of epoxy when the mixture is used as glue, as in a stitch and glue kayak. Wood dust and cab-o-sil increase the strength. I'll get the book and copy the note here (once I'm allowed to creep around and make noise... )

All I know about micro balloons is that builders of Rutan's VeriEze fiberglass aircraft used micro balloons as their filler because of its reduced weight and because it was only used to fill cosmetically.

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Old 11-10-2009, 07:42 AM   #506
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From System Three documentation, pages 14-15

MODIFYING EPOXY WITH FILLERS
Epoxies formulated for coating and fiberglassing are too thin to serve as gap-filling adhesives. They can be modified by the addi­tion of thixotropes to form non-sagging pastes very useful as gap filling glues. These pastes can be further modified with the addi­tion of microballoons to form putties for fairing and hole filling. Wood flour can be used to make filleting putty for stitch-and-glue boat construction. All these solid dusty additives are called fillers. Fillers change the flow and density characteristics of the epoxy system. Each filler changes the liquid resin and hardener in ways that make epoxy useful for other applications besides coating or fiberglassing.

Fillers fall into four general classes: thixotropic agents, bulking agents, fibrous fillers, and pigments. There is some overlapping as to function of certain fillers.

Silica thickener (Cab-0-Sil or Aerosil), plastic minifibers and wood flour are thixotropic agents. They turn the epoxy into a thixotropic fluid. These fluids flow under shear stress but do not readily flow once the stress is removed. Ketchup and latex house paints are examples of thixotropic fluids. Adding these agents to the mixed resin and hardener produces a fluid that will easily flow under the spreading stress of a putty knife. Once the stress is removed the thickened epoxy retains its shape. In short, these fillers make the epoxy non-sagging and are added specifically to make gap-filling adhesives.

Phenolic microballoons, quartz microspheres, and wood flour are bulking agents. They "bulk out" the epoxy making a lightweight putty like mix. Although all these thicken the epoxy, only wood flour will also make it thixotropic. Attempting to add sufficient microballoons or microspheres to make a non-sagging fairing put­ty will result in one that spreads poorly as it becomes dry. These materials should be used along with a thixotropic agent. Silica thickener is the best choice because it produces the smoothest compound.

Fillers change the mechanical properties of the cured resin. For all practical purposes the builder can ignore these changes. Thixotropic agents have the least effect since they are used in the smallest amounts to produce the desired result. Bulk­ing agents reduce tensile strength in proportion to the amount added. Some will initially increase compressive strength. With increasing amounts of additives, though, compressive strengths will decrease.

The correct sequence for the addition of filler materials:
1. Correctly measure and mix resin/hardener.
2. Add fiber fillers, if any, and mix well.
3. Add bulking agents, if any, and mix well.
4. Add thixotropic agent and mix well.

The mixed viscosity of coating and fiberglassing epoxies is not high enough to make good gap filling adhesives. Thixotropic agents like silica thickener (Cab-0-Sil, Aerosil), plastic minifibers, and wood flour are used to thicken the epoxy and change the flow characteristics. These fillers will turn the epoxy from translucent to opaque depending on the type and amount used. Silica thicken­er and plastic minifibers make the epoxy whitish while wood flour turns it reddish-brown. Silica thickener makes a smooth material while epoxy thickened with plastic minifibers or wood flour will be coarse. Microballoons and microspheres should not be used in adhesive formulations as they reduce tensile strength.
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Old 11-10-2009, 08:07 AM   #507
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you want me to add it to the list? I got one and it was free to me. Brand new still in the plastic.
Thanks Frank, yes that would be great if you're willing to let it leave your inventory.

I don't think I'll need much more than a fine top coat (skim). I was pleased how smooth it actually turned out, even the radius corner. Final finish will be an automotive paint (base/clear) to as close as I can get to the factory gel coat color. My goal is for it to look stock, not rebuilt etc. I look forward to sanding the panel this afternoon and see how it turns out, I'll post some photos close up where you can see it. The only texture it seems to have right now is a hint of the texture of the foam I used to make a form.

The fillers are a bit intimidating, but going to stop by our auto paint shop here and see what all they have to go with their fiberglass material.
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Old 11-10-2009, 08:11 AM   #508
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Woops forgot to add, yes I will be using PPG for the color coat, any filler on top will be very thin, to be honest probably several coats of filling primer would fill them I went that route but plan to get it as smooth as possible before that stage. I just printed these few posts so I can attempt to have a clue what I need when I get there
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Old 11-10-2009, 05:59 PM   #509
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The ATW Caravan logo art is done, just need to get is saved as a PDF document with each of the three colors on a page. So where do I send the file when done?

Here's a sample in black and white.

Brad
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I heard back from Steve at VTS and he's waiting on samples back from the same company that makes his reproduction nameplates. Should know more soon!!!
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Old 11-10-2009, 06:01 PM   #510
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I heard back from Steve at VTS and he's waiting on samples back from the same company that makes his reproduction nameplates. Should know more soon!!!
Kool! Can't wait to rivet this to "Tar Baby's" shell ...
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Old 11-10-2009, 07:03 PM   #511
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Scott, here are the PPG urethane paint products I used. That K36 primer sands like butter and is very easy to spray. It is a flat color that lets you see every imperfection. Remember your finish will only look as good as your prep. I really liked these products, just be sure to clean the gun right after you apply them.

Now your parts: I have the tv antenna hook up. The screen I have for an astrodome is 13 5/8 x 25. I have the fan motor too. What else?
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Old 11-10-2009, 07:08 PM   #512
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Filler

Scott-

I was the one who mentioned the filler for fairing your finished work. I'll try to remember the post. Strange that it disappeared.

Once you've completed your structural glassing, you can fair the surface with epoxy and filler. I swear by West Systems stuff and use their 105 Resin, 205 Hardner and 410 Microballoon filler.

To fill and fair, mix the resin and hardner, then add about 4 times the volume of filler to the mix. It really blends in -- it's not as bad as it sounds! It should be about the consistency of peanut butter.

It will sand SO much better, kind of like bondo. The benefit is that you have epoxy to epoxy bonds, not epoxy to polyester with bondo. This is the way most boats are repaired.

There are a lot of links on the West Systems site. This is a good one: http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/...toringreeb.pdf . It might be of more interest to Marcus -- it's fixing a boat called reeb -- beer spelled backwards.

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Old 11-10-2009, 07:27 PM   #513
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Wow lots of information!! Very thankful for all the info! I've used the K36/201 before, very great primer, had never tried/heard of the MTK line of paints, but makes sense. Wish they sold the stuff in smaller quantities, the tank I plan to keep the tan, but going go white with the tub, not cream, sense the new zolatone is a more pure white than the older colors.

Frank, can you do me one favor on the screen? Can you give me a center to center on the grommet location so I can confirm that? Also any word on if the motor has life left in it and works? Tv antenna thing is definately something I need, any luck on the furnace duct cover?

John, will be down at our local autobody supply house and will take this stuff with me so I can see what all they have or what I need to order.
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Old 11-12-2009, 08:29 PM   #514
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Had a visit today from Wally (FLYRC) who's been out searching for parts for his 56 Flying Cloud. He ran across a 1963 washington trailer plate. Our state lets you run vintage plates on cars and bikes, but no provision on trailers, so I've contacted the State office in Olympia to see if there is any way to petition to run this plate on a vintage trailer. Isn't restored yet, but not a dent, tear of damage of any kind. Will paint up great.

Wally also found a great new chrome shop that opened last month that made him a great deal on chroming his license light, baby moons and his door handle. Think after I get some more play money I'll get my license light and plate holder, baby moons for the 63 and 69, and the kitchen vent on the 63 chromed. Sounds like I can do all that for about $300 bucks.
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Old 11-14-2009, 06:59 PM   #515
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Wow DAP silicone remover is good stuff! The white silicone all over the rear seams was hard as a rock, as wide as 1/2 inch in places and over 1/4 thick in some areas. Was helping Wally out today and got a call from him because he knew I was going to try using caulk remover to get the seams on the rear end cap ready for the alcoa gutter seal that arrived from VTS. It was 41 degrees outside so I wasn't sure if the gel would really do its job or not but decided to go for it. Let it sit while Wally and I were getting work done. Got back to it a couple hours later and the stuff just rolled off. Bet I could make a softball with the glob of silicone that I gathered up. Cleaned the seams and surounding areas with some mineral spirits and wow it looks so much better. Was too dark for pictures, but tomorrow will do some more polishing on the end cap and take my first crack at the gutter seal install.
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Old 11-14-2009, 07:09 PM   #516
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He ran across a 1963 washington trailer plate. Our state lets you run vintage plates on cars and bikes, but no provision on trailers, so I've contacted the State office in Olympia to see if there is any way to petition to run this plate on a vintage trailer. Isn't restored yet, but not a dent, tear of damage of any kind. Will paint up great.
I'm getting ready to write the same petition here in AZ> The legislature recently allowed travel trailers to get an historical vehicle plate so I'm thinking this shouldn't be too tough of a stretch.

Now I just need to find a T-2 ARIZ. 59 trailer plate in good enough shape to repaint. Found one on the web for sale but think I can do better than $40.

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Old 11-15-2009, 02:56 PM   #517
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Alcoa Gutter Seal

After finishing removing silicone yesterday from the back end caps (still have the roof vents, and the tops of about half the windows to do) I did another pass with the polisher to really clean up the seams, some of the wider openings in the end cap segments I cleaned out with a dental tool, and then on each end cap seam, and where the end cap meets the last bow I laid down a nice bead of alcoa gutter seal. This stuff is as wild as others have said. Areas that were really tight I went back with solvent and cleaned up any excess, but in 90+% of the areas it wicked all the way into the joint flush with the butt edge of the panel and looks great (much better than that black factory tape stuff). Tonight we're supposed to get some rain/winter mix and hope to find no drips inside the rear end cap this time.

One question, is the awning rail supposed to be sealed across the top or just the rivet points? Doesn't appear it was factory sealed but at some point someone has added a lot of silicone along the top edge of it.

Also had my WBCCI numbers, the black decal and the Caravan sticker sitting on my desk for like 6 months and figured while the weather was still warm enough to attach them, and before they got ruined or lost I'd get them on.

Here's the rear. Everything below the top of the rear window (except the beltline) still needs to be polished, and the sides of the window still need more silicone removed before resealing. Also before the snow flies this and the front window need the petrified bulb seal removed and replaced with the new stuff sitting in the garage. Then I should be pretty much water tight for the winter and can get back to removing paint inside.
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Old 11-15-2009, 03:39 PM   #518
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Wow Scott. Thank looks excellent. Great work and I'll bet you're tickled that its sealed. Let us know tomorrow how the end cap faired after today's weather.

Also, I can't wait to see what Steve from VTS comes up with on the ATW caravan emblem. I know he's been in contact with you as well.

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Old 11-15-2009, 06:56 PM   #519
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Scott... did you seal from the inside or the outside... I was thinking outside, till you mentioned the factory black stuff, which is inside..
Did you just polish with the cyclo? Looks great from here!
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Old 11-15-2009, 08:22 PM   #520
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Thanks, yeah I've been working with the cyclo, but using a buffing wheel for the seams etc to get into those areas a little better. I sealed the seams from the outside. Its been my goal not to drop the end caps, but we'll find out if this has solved the problems or not. Unlike our 69 this won't have a mirror finish, too many character marks to accomplish that. But I still think it looks much better than it did a few months ago.
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