'63 Safari - It 'Bee' Traded (#8671)

[goransons]

Thanks for the info, yes I was looking at those lights on VTS and Inland RV and one of them, not sure which says they were used on 1964 and up. I ran 2 wires through the belly today back into the bumper storage and left it long (backup light/ground), will figure out a plug of some type, probably just a two prong trailer plug and a magmount light I can add when I need it.

I finished redoing the junction area before putting in the front 34 inches or so of plywood, feels great to have that area all in, plus glad to finally have the wires connected for the brakes back to the axle, still need to do those connections. Also now have 12 volt from the tow vehicle connected up and the aux circuit, so that is all wrapped up. Going to finish bolting the front one down tomorrow and drop in the last piece of plywood and do those bolts. Am short a few elevator bolts, so I'll have to wait until Monday and hit Fastenal or Tacoma Screw here in town and finish up.

After I finish the dirty work (panel replacement, finish removing all the interior sheet metal latex paint etc) then I'm going to instlal 1/4 plywood, ofsetting all the seams over the sub floor to really create a seamless surface for the new armstrong tiles. But it feels great (and smells great) getting all that rotten wood, nasty insulation, mouse crap and other "stuff" out of that trailer. Will post tomorrow after dropping that last piece in. Moving a bit slow this weekend, the wife is on the west side of the state working on her grandma's house so I'm playing airstream and single dad with our 2 year old, so projects are limited nap time and bed time.

[goransons]

So I took a picture early in the piece going in, I did end up cutting and splicing the front piece, but did a 32" wide splice (16" on each side of the cut) with glue and screws. Actually is more solid than the rest of the plywood now and the glue isn't even dry. Here's a picture with one side in, splice in, wires in but insulation just starting, never got the camera back in there once I got my gloves back on, so that will have to wait until tomorrow.

If all goes as planned the final piece that goes in will be a one piece job and not spliced, just couldn't get forward of the rib with the curve and couldn't slide it in from outside with the big anchor plate up front.

[goransons]

final piece to drop down this evening after I tuck in my son, he woke up too fast from his nap, but got close!! Took a few photos of the entire length inside so you can see the big picture. Got many more bolts to do, but need a buddy over to man the floor while I work underneith (which by the way is much more pleasant now that the trailer sits 5" higher with the new axle).

5 new sheets of plywood, what a great investment getting rid of all that rot, the junk in the belly and all new insulation and rust removed. It feels good knowing that everything from here on out is on a good foundation.

I somewhat changed my mind this afternoon working, before I start doing front and side panel, I'm going to go ahead and strip the paint off the rear and curb side lower panels, reinsulate and get those back on, mostly just to get those pieces and all the trim out of my way (as you can see my storage is rather limited).

[flyfshr]

You may also want to consider putting in a third brake light set up similar to the plug in back up lights. I want to do this and use a long horizontal light that sits inside the back window temporarily and is plugged in when traveling. Can't warn the folks behind you enough. Hiding the plug in on a side of the bathroom cabinetry and hanging the light from the curtain rod is my plan. We'll see what happens.

You are making great progress and I like the ideas that are being bantered around.

Brad
FF

[Zeppelinium]

Originally Posted by flyfshr

You may also want to consider putting in a third brake light ...

The brake/turn lights are separated at the 7-pin connector, so you don't have a "brake" signal. No matter how you wire it or diode isolate the two circuits, you're going to have a flashing light if you have either turn signal on but are not on the brake, right?

I hadn't thought about this until I watched the install of my A.R.E. topper last week. It turns out there is a separate brake signal in my GMC that had to be hooked up to the third brake light in the topper.

Zep

[goransons]

So this morning, I was tired of dragging power cords out to the trailer, kept looking at the outlets going if those were on it would be so much easier to work in.

SOOOOOO

First I installed the new breaker box, and a new power cord. Connected up the two circuits, plugged it in, and it immediately popped the gfci, fussed with every circuit, kept doing it. Had done that this winter too, but figured it was in the cord, or box. It wasn't.

The street side of the ceiling on only had one or two screws holding it up in place from the bow repair, so I got out the lineman pliers, started hacking away and ripped out all the old romex. 4 1/2 hours later, I stopped, just too tired and sweating like crazy. Kitchen and goucho circuit is done and tested, the dinette area and bathroom circuit has just a few more connections to make but all the wire runs are in. Going to connect that up tomorrow, put the insulation back in the ceiling, then REALLY finish the floor.

So much for the plans for the day, but in the long run It'll be better off I think with all new 110 wiring.

[66Overlander]

Originally Posted by Zeppelinium

The brake/turn lights are separated at the 7-pin connector, so you don't have a "brake" signal. No matter how you wire it or diode isolate the two circuits, you're going to have a flashing light if you have either turn signal on but are not on the brake, right?

I hadn't thought about this until I watched the install of my A.R.E. topper last week. It turns out there is a separate brake signal in my GMC that had to be hooked up to the third brake light in the topper.

Zep

Interestingly, according to 1963 Airstream paperwork, the 7 pin connector was defined as Battery, Ground, Electric Brakes, Park Lights, Left Turn Lights, Right Turn Lights, & Stop Lights.

Unfortunately, that was probably before trailer wiring standards came along and now we have the standard interface of Battery, Ground, Electric Brakes, Park Lights, Left Stop/Turn Lights, Right Stop/Turn Lights, & Backup Lights.

I wouldn't think it would be worth it to modify the tow vehicle wiring away from the current standard to accommodate this trailer. That would make both the trailer and tow vehicle incapable of being connected to other vehicles.

Airstream did offer a Center High Mount Brake Lamp for a year or two in the early 1990's. I have never seen a diagram as to how it was wired, because as you note, there is no exact way to construct a Brake Lamp Signal from the Left and Right Stop/Turn signals. I suspect that they had to discontinue it because it is not legal to illuminate (or flash) the center brake lamp for any purpose other than the brakes have been applied (i.e. it cannot flash due to turn signals or hazard flashers being activated).

[flyfshr]

Man, I really thought I was onto something here. Guess I'll have to concentrate my efforts elsewhere. Thanks guys for the interesting discussion.

Brad
FF

[goransons]

Actually Brad and Joe are correct, in 1963 they did in fact run seperate wires for brake light (thus why the stock lights have two sockets, one with a double terminal, one with a single, so one for brake, one for turn, one for clearance). At some point the seperate brake circuit was tied into the clearance light circuit, then the turn signal runs on its own seperate bulb.

Not sure how that would have wired onto the plug, but certainly wouldn't have alligned with the standard plug of today.

A simple logic circuit should be available for that 3rd light. I did a quick google search for "3rd brake light logic circuit" and came up with this:

Automotive Third Brake Light at Sears Automotive

[66Overlander]

Originally Posted by goransons

A simple logic circuit should be available for that 3rd light. I did a quick google search for "3rd brake light logic circuit" and came up with this:

Automotive Third Brake Light at Sears Automotive

I have given this challenge a lot of thought over the years.

A simple relay can be used to get the center brake light to ignore a single turn signal input when the brake lights are off and to illuminate when the brake lights are on and the both turn signals are off. Wire one Stop/Turn signal to the relay coil and the other to the relay contacts.

The trouble is that when the brake lights an one turn signal are both "on" the Center Brake Lamp will flash with the Turn Signal, either turn signal. If a timer circuit is added to delay the Center Brake Lamp from extinuishing for perhaps 1 second after it looses the turn signal, it could synthesize the correct brake lamp operation and ignore the flashing turn lamp as long as one lamp was continuously illuminated. This might be a legal issue, but one that could be argued as insignificant.

But this still might not solve the problem when the Hazard Flashers are on. If it took one lamp continuously illuminated to operate the electronic circuit then the Center Lamp would still flash when both lamps flashed.

To go further and not flash the Center Brake Lamp when both Turn lamps flash takes further logic, like not turning on the Center Brake Lamp for over one second until the device is sure the brake lamps are applied, not the Hazard Flashers. This definitely gets into legal concerns, because delaying turn on of a brake lamp could have safety ramifications and without other information there is no way for the device to determine if both lamp illuminated because the brakes were applied or because this was the first flash of the Hazard Flashers. Otherwise at least the first "Hazard Flash" would incorrectly transmit thru to the Center Brake Lamp before the logic could take over and ignore subsequent flashes, which would also have legal ramifications. But what's harder here is that this logic needs to be powered during the "off" flashes, so it either needs an external Battery power feed, or else it needs a capacitor or other internal energy storage device to power the electronics for a short time while the lamps are both off.

And this all becomes harder if you think about having the Harard Flasher ON and then appying and relewaseing the brakes. Or having the brakes on and turning the Hazard Flashers on and off. How would the device handle the transitions?

In the end, I believe the device in question may have solved most of these issues, but it likely hasn't addressed or hasn't completely solved the Hazard Flasher scenario, and it may violate Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards if they did try to solve the Hazard Flasher issue. That said, there is no way that an original equipment manufacturer could install such a device legally and sell the product. Individual owners can modify their vehicle after purchase, and while they likely need to comply with the same regulations, the chance of getting caught is minuscule compared to the need to document full compliance for the original equipment manufacturer.

I know this was too much detail, but I couldn't resist after having spent much time in the past trying to solve this issue on my own.

[Zeppelinium]

Originally Posted by 66Overlander

... this all becomes harder if you think about having the Harard Flasher ON and then appying and relewaseing the brakes. Or having the brakes on and turning the Hazard Flashers on and off. How would the device handle the transitions?
...

Hello, Elmer Fudd?

[Xbob2]

Has anyone ever thought of wiring the 3rd brake light in tandem with the brake actuator circuit ... shouldn't be too much of a current draw that it would affect braking and would be a simple install.
Bob
Now that I think about it, that is a variable voltage circuit off the break controller ... maybe it could be used to trip a relay?

Originally Posted by 66Overlander

I have given this challenge a lot of thought over the years.

A simple relay can be used to get the center brake light to ignore a single turn signal input when the brake lights are off and to illuminate when the brake lights are on and the both turn signals are off. Wire one Stop/Turn signal to the relay coil and the other to the relay contacts.

The trouble is that when the brake lights an one turn signal are both "on" the Center Brake Lamp will flash with the Turn Signal, either turn signal. If a timer circuit is added to delay the Center Brake Lamp from extinuishing for perhaps 1 second after it looses the turn signal, it could synthesize the correct brake lamp operation and ignore the flashing turn lamp as long as one lamp was continuously illuminated. This might be a legal issue, but one that could be argued as insignificant.

But this still might not solve the problem when the Hazard Flashers are on. If it took one lamp continuously illuminated to operate the electronic circuit then the Center Lamp would still flash when both lamps flashed.

To go further and not flash the Center Brake Lamp when both Turn lamps flash takes further logic, like not turning on the Center Brake Lamp for over one second until the device is sure the brake lamps are applied, not the Hazard Flashers. This definitely gets into legal concerns, because delaying turn on of a brake lamp could have safety ramifications and without other information there is no way for the device to determine if both lamp illuminated because the brakes were applied or because this was the first flash of the Hazard Flashers. Otherwise at least the first "Hazard Flash" would incorrectly transmit thru to the Center Brake Lamp before the logic could take over and ignore subsequent flashes, which would also have legal ramifications. But what's harder here is that this logic needs to be powered during the "off" flashes, so it either needs an external Battery power feed, or else it needs a capacitor or other internal energy storage device to power the electronics for a short time while the lamps are both off.

And this all becomes harder if you think about having the Harard Flasher ON and then appying and relewaseing the brakes. Or having the brakes on and turning the Hazard Flashers on and off. How would the device handle the transitions?

In the end, I believe the device in question may have solved most of these issues, but it likely hasn't addressed or hasn't completely solved the Hazard Flasher scenario, and it may violate Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards if they did try to solve the Hazard Flasher issue. That said, there is no way that an original equipment manufacturer could install such a device legally and sell the product. Individual owners can modify their vehicle after purchase, and while they likely need to comply with the same regulations, the chance of getting caught is minuscule compared to the need to document full compliance for the original equipment manufacturer.

I know this was too much detail, but I couldn't resist after having spent much time in the past trying to solve this issue on my own.

[goransons]

Good news, all existing 110 circuits are finished up, 12v repaired, and preparing to install insulation in the ceiling and get rivets back in today and tomorrow. But first, I need to figure A/C stuff out.

I'm not 100% set on going this way, but also in the boy scout motto of "BE PREPARED" before I finish putting the ceiling back up I need to rough in the electrical and a drain tube. Here's my thought process.

OPTION 1:



This fits the suggestion, over the axle (actually just behind) and not in a vent. Problems:

1. There are 3 bows (marked with tape), 1 complete, 2 incomplete that run through this area, not leaving a 14x14 area without cutting out existing structure

2. Carrier Low Profile is 41" long, which would put the difuser up against the light fixture, and the heat exhaust would but up against the rear vent which would make the vent really useless.

3. I don't mind cutting holes, did one on our 69 tradewind, but cutting a hole leaves a perminant scar, unless someone wants to switch out the entire ceiling panel and roof panel.

SECOND OPTION:

Install in the middle vent


(photo from forward, facing rear of trailer)

Pro's:

1. Compressor would still be very close to over the axle (6" in front axle center)
2. A/C could easily be removed at a later date and replaced with a stock Hehr roof vent.
3. Difuser will still nearly touch light up front (instead of behind), but will leave plenty of room for rear vent to still function
4. Air conditioning will go forward and rear, unit roughly centered in living space.
5. Forward and behind the existing vent are already supported with 2 full bows instead of partials.
6. Still 2 fully functioning vents (bath area with fan and astrodome)

Outside view (front astro dome is off right now, so forward most vent lid would be start of unit).



SUGGESTIONS?

THANKS!

[utee94]

Originally Posted by goransons

SUGGESTIONS?

THANKS!

I'd go with the middle vent. That's where mine is located. I like this option for the reasons you outlined-- it's close to centered, and there is no new opening so it could be taken back to original quite easily.

A nice feature on the Carrier AirV low-profile is that it has a cam that works the outlet vents up and down. So, while sometimes the air flow is banging directly into the light in front of it, sometimes it is directed down and clears the light.

Other than that, nice work on your electrical, keep it up! In my climate, working with the A/C on has become an absolute must over the past couple of months. I can't remember the last time we had a day below 100 degrees, or any rain for that matter...

-Marcus

[goransons]

OLD BREAKERS

Have a new panel (even got the polarity light moved over) with modern breakers (with room for the A/C) and have two Wadsworth Electric single pole breakers. Anyone out there need one for their early 60's panel let me know, can toss them in a flat rate box and send them for the cost of the shipping.

[goransons]

Thanks Marcus, I've got the carrier unit in my 69 as well. We love the moving louvers. I can move the light over a few inches without the box or old screw holes showing, and if everything I penciled out on the ceiling works I'll have 6" past the open louver position, so the light should clear just fine, will keep the bulb cool anyway.

Other good news, airstream buddy here in town had a lead and ended up buying slightly scuffed 2024 12' sheets for 50 bucks a piece, and I just bought 4 from him, so I can replace the bottom 4 feet inside all the way around. Should save hours and hours of stripping, a lot less chemicals and won't have all the buckles, dents etc from the missing floor areas. Insulation should go in tomorrow after I finalize the A/C setup and pull the wire and drain tube up.

[flyfshr]

I also concur on the center vent opening. Its where I put mine and it distributes the cool air throughout the trailer evenly. I added 1 1/2" aluminum C channel between the two ribs for extra support. Have traveled over 4500 mies without problems, some on some fairly rough roads. I also just remove the ceiling light fixture and capped the opening with a chrome blank wall plate.

If I had to do this all over again and knowing now what I didn't know then, I'd install a drip pan and hide a drain tube in the closet.

Brad
FF

[utee94]

Originally Posted by flyfshr

I also concur on the center vent opening. Its where I put mine and it distributes the cool air throughout the trailer evenly. I added 1 1/2" aluminum C channel between the two ribs for extra support. Have traveled over 4500 mies without problems, some on some fairly rough roads. I also just remove the ceiling light fixture and capped the opening with a chrome blank wall plate.

If I had to do this all over again and knowing now what I didn't know then, I'd install a drip pan and hide a drain tube in the closet.

Brad
FF

Yes, that is my plan as well for the front-half renovation. Which, judging by the rate of my progress on the BACK-half renovation, should be happening sometime in late 2012...

[flyfshr]

Ah come on Marcus, you're progressing faster than that!! Unless, of course, you're taking time off for camping, then go right ahead. By all means.

Brad
FF

[goransons]

Going to drop the ceiling one last time in the morning, run the wire up, and a drain tube, reinstall insulation and get it riveted back up in place. Last piece of plywood in today, got lights and outlets... Not a bad day!

Thanks for the advice everyone, I just like running it by people cause there are a lot of good minds on here!