Meet the eStream

[stingray84]

Originally Posted by Andy R

I asked for you. They said that the tow vehicle should have adequate tow capacity in case the trailer were to run out of power.

My perspective is that you still need to thinking about going over a bump and extra weigh coming down on the tow vehicle which then puts the front wheels of the tow vehicle without enough pressure loosing the ability to turn in an emergency situation. It’s only perfectly balanced on flat land. You still need to take caution.

The trailer they have on display weighs 5,500 lbs.

Here are some photos

Much appreciated! My thoughts as well. You can get it going with a model Y but if the eStream runs out of battery, you are stuck. Minor point: Model X is rated up to 5000lb yet the eStream it tows is 5500lb.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by stingray84

Much appreciated! My thoughts as well. You can get it going with a model Y but if the eStream runs out of battery, you are stuck. Minor point: Model X is rated up to 5000lb yet the eStream it tows is 5500lb.

With 384 or 480 hp, I don't think the Model Y would be stuck, it would pull it fine. The testing of the Model 3 with an AS27 showed that. The issue is that you would cut your remaining range essentially in half.

[stingray84]

Originally Posted by jcl

With 384 or 480 hp, I don't think the Model Y would be stuck, it would pull it fine. The testing of the Model 3 with an AS27 showed that. The issue is that you would cut your remaining range essentially in half.

When eStream runs out of battery. The model Y will be pulling 5500lb of dead weight while it’s only rated for 3500lb. Sure it’ll move the trailer but could damage the drivetrain / chassis structure.

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by stingray84

When eStream runs out of battery. The model Y will be pulling 5500lb of dead weight while it’s only rated for 3500lb. Sure it’ll move the trailer but could damage the drivetrain / chassis structure.

Could it stop that much weight? It might have to... Things go bad, and all that's between the TV and trailer to control braking are a couple of harnesses.

As magical as it all sounds being able to punch above your class, anyone who has towed knows that things don't always work the way they should - connectors will still get dirty & corroded, cords will still get pinched in a sharp turn, and the whole works will still fail from a combination of user error and road events. All that technology is still subject to most of the mundane failure points we have today.

Can't see how an EV manufacturer will ever recommend towing a 5500-lb eTrailer behind an EV only rated for 3500-lb traditional trailer.

[jondrew55]

Oh yea, the stopping thing. Good point. Wonder how the inertia of another 5k+ pounds will affect regenerative breaking?

Originally Posted by richard5933

Could it stop that much weight? It might have to... Things go bad, and all that's between the TV and trailer to control braking are a couple of harnesses.

As magical as it all sounds being able to punch above your class, anyone who has towed knows that things don't always work the way they should - connectors will still get dirty & corroded, cords will still get pinched in a sharp turn, and the whole works will still fail from a combination of user error and road events. All that technology is still subject to most of the mundane failure points we have today.

Can't see how an EV manufacturer will ever recommend towing a 5500-lb eTrailer behind an EV only rated for 3500-lb traditional trailer.

[panamerican]

Originally Posted by jcl

This all leads to the $64,000 question. What is the target tongue weight? We don't know, but if it is 10-15%, Thor will miss out on a significant market opportunity. This product isn't being developed, IMO, to be towed by heavy duty pickups.

..and you somewhat proved my point. Lots of speculation, not a lot of fact. I'm not trying to be a wet blanket here, but more to temper expectation.

European "Caravans" are vastly different that North American travel trailers. Caravans are smaller, lighter, etc, where is North American, not so small or light, plus and I may be going out on a limb on this one, North American market tends to pack more. More real estate=more things to pack=more weight=more hitch weight.

CanAm basically stripped out all the gear on the "A" frame. That isn't gonna work in the North American market. So he proved he can move a 25-28' trailer in a manner not typcial of North American use. That's great....but I'm left with an.....and?

Look I think this is great, but I myself don't blindly jump on the bandwagon based on a lot of speculation off of a prototype. Does it have promise? Of course it does. Does it have a very, very, very long way to go for the North American market if it is to meet or exceed what the current trailers can haul? For sure.

The thousand mile journey begins with one step. We are now on step 2 here. We all have hopes and wish lists, but let's keep things in perspective. Even Can Am's solution as you referenced I would suspect would NOT work for over 75% of the North American trailer market....but more of a niche at this point. With larger corporations behind this movement, perhaps we may see 30' Airstreams that weigh 9-10k lbs with electric assist, and they will be towed by Rivans, or Chevy or Ford electric pickups....but to date there are no standards (yet) to get any power from the trailer to the tow vehicle. The trucks out now or coming out have 1/2 the rated range when towing, and chargers, particularly with trailer in tow are not yet readily available.

So again, a great first step, let's see how it progresses. These may not be commercially available for a number of years based on a lot of factors, let alone the additional cost of the battery packs which right now sits about $175/kWh. To be of any real value, I would **suspect** based on my PHEV that a min of 50k kWh would be needed (not positive, but for arguments let's pick 50k, even though I think it will need more). In today's dollars thats a bit over $13k tacked on to a $100k+ trailer, and we haven't even talked about the cost of the electric drive, charge controller, thermal management (required), etc.

An average person, not looking to be on the bleeding edge will look at the $13k alone and think, why? At $5/gallon I can get 2600 gallons of fuel, and at 10 miles per gallon travel 26,000 miles +/-. The ROI as it stands today and possibly short term, provided I don't need to replace the battery packs is a way off...again, not taking into consideration the cost of the ancillary gear required for electric drive, upping the cost well beyond $13k.

[stingray84]

Originally Posted by panamerican

..and you somewhat proved my point. Lots of speculation, not a lot of fact. I'm not trying to be a wet blanket here, but more to temper expectation.

European "Caravans" are vastly different that North American travel trailers. Caravans are smaller, lighter, etc, where is North American, not so small or light, plus and I may be going out on a limb on this one, North American market tends to pack more. More real estate=more things to pack=more weight=more hitch weight.

CanAm basically stripped out all the gear on the "A" frame. That isn't gonna work in the North American market. So he proved he can move a 25-28' trailer in a manner not typcial of North American use. That's great....but I'm left with an.....and?

Look I think this is great, but I myself don't blindly jump on the bandwagon based on a lot of speculation off of a prototype. Does it have promise? Of course it does. Does it have a very, very, very long way to go for the North American market if it is to meet or exceed what the current trailers can haul? For sure.

The thousand mile journey begins with one step. We are now on step 2 here. We all have hopes and wish lists, but let's keep things in perspective. Even Can Am's solution as you referenced I would suspect would NOT work for over 75% of the North American trailer market....but more of a niche at this point. With larger corporations behind this movement, perhaps we may see 30' Airstreams that weigh 9-10k lbs with electric assist, and they will be towed by Rivans, or Chevy or Ford electric pickups....but to date there are no standards (yet) to get any power from the trailer to the tow vehicle. The trucks out now or coming out have 1/2 the rated range when towing, and chargers, particularly with trailer in tow are not yet readily available.

So again, a great first step, let's see how it progresses. These may not be commercially available for a number of years based on a lot of factors, let alone the additional cost of the battery packs which right now sits about $175/kWh. To be of any real value, I would **suspect** based on my PHEV that a min of 50k kWh would be needed (not positive, but for arguments let's pick 50k, even though I think it will need more). In today's dollars thats a bit over $13k tacked on to a $100k+ trailer, and we haven't even talked about the cost of the electric drive, charge controller, thermal management (required), etc.

An average person, not looking to be on the bleeding edge will look at the $13k alone and think, why? At $5/gallon I can get 2600 gallons of fuel, and at 10 miles per gallon travel 26,000 miles +/-. The ROI as it stands today and possibly short term, provided I don't need to replace the battery packs is a way off...again, not taking into consideration the cost of the ancillary gear required for electric drive, upping the cost well beyond $13k.

One of the video I saw says 80kWh battery. $13k is pretty close to what I expect the battery would cost alone. On top of that, 2 motors, 2 inverters for the motor, motor controller, battery charger, thermal management would put the electrical propulsion system at $25-$30k total. 900W solar adds more cost on top of that. The trailer itself looks like a European style Bambi 22' which is about $70k. If this goes into production, I expect this to be $100k-$110k at a minimum for this size of trailer. How many people is willing to pay this much for a small-ish trailer?

[panamerican]

Originally Posted by stingray84

One of the video I saw says 80kWh battery. $13k is pretty close to what I expect the battery would cost alone. On top of that, 2 motors, 2 inverters for the motor, motor controller, battery charger, thermal management would put the electrical propulsion system at $25-$30k total. 900W solar adds more cost on top of that. The trailer itself looks like a European style Bambi 22' which is about $70k. If this goes into production, I expect this to be $100k-$110k at a minimum for this size of trailer. How many people is willing to pay this much for a small-ish trailer?

That's just it....putting this on a small trailer is neat and all, but the larger trailers weigh more and that is where these kinds of systems will pay bigger dividends...possibly....and those kinds of dollars for a smaller coach is gonna be a hard sell as it stands today and in the foreseeable future.

This is a great start, but even Bob Lutz who managed the Chevy Volt said they started at the wrong end, they should have done Voltec with a truck that got 10mpg vs a hatchback that with an ICE could hit 30mpg. Of course this is a prototype and each year that passes, the price per kWH goes down. It's a great concept for sure, but way too early to tell how it's gonna play out longer term yet.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by jondrew55

Oh yea, the stopping thing. Good point. Wonder how the inertia of another 5k+ pounds will affect regenerative breaking?

The trailer would have regenerative braking as well, so the regen effect would be doubled. And the trailer would have brakes, hopefully discs. From a stability standpoint, the electric assist system would always keep the combination in tension, so the trailer wouldn’t be pushing the tow vehicle as happens with tow vehicles with exhaust brakes.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by richard5933

Could it stop that much weight? It might have to... Things go bad, and all that's between the TV and trailer to control braking are a couple of harnesses.

As magical as it all sounds being able to punch above your class, anyone who has towed knows that things don't always work the way they should - connectors will still get dirty & corroded, cords will still get pinched in a sharp turn, and the whole works will still fail from a combination of user error and road events. All that technology is still subject to most of the mundane failure points we have today.

Can't see how an EV manufacturer will ever recommend towing a 5500-lb eTrailer behind an EV only rated for 3500-lb traditional trailer.

Yes, tow vehicles have been shown to be able to stop a trailer without functioning trailer brakes. It is part of the SAE tow rating procedure.

I think tow ratings based on the power required to pull a trailer will not be as relevant for a powered trailer. I think tongue weight design targets still will be.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by panamerican

..and you somewhat proved my point. Lots of speculation, not a lot of fact. I'm not trying to be a wet blanket here, but more to temper expectation….

Of course it is speculation. Pretty much everything after the press release announcement. Those expecting to purchase one today will be disappointed.

But it isn’t just about this one concept trailer. Thor and Airstream set up a team to look at innovative products. They purchased companies developing this product. This is a concept. It has lots of things incorporated apart from the electric assist. And many of those things can find their way into current models. Things like a smooth roof for less drag. Things like dynamic sway control from the trailer manufacturer.

If Airstream carried along building ever heavier and ever larger trailers to be towed only by a class of vehicle that is essentially going to be sunset at some point in the future, they’d be in trouble. Not today, but over time. This shows that they are facing that challenge. Good for them.

If posters are accustomed to carrying one or two gas generators, and a cast iron cooking collection, just as an example, and they can not accept any alternatives, then this product direction isn’t for them. That’s fine. Nobody is going to force them to stop doing what they are doing, except costs, at some future point.

For those of us that prefer a minimalist approach to travel, like technology, won’t own another ICE vehicle, don’t want to deal with propane, (or a subset of all those), and have enjoyed camping, this direction is very encouraging.

[Mattedfred]

Does the j in jcl stand for Job?

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...atience-of-job

[jcl]

Originally Posted by panamerican

That's just it....putting this on a small trailer is neat and all, but the larger trailers weigh more and that is where these kinds of systems will pay bigger dividends...possibly....and those kinds of dollars for a smaller coach is gonna be a hard sell as it stands today and in the foreseeable future.

The rights to the technology are with Thor, not Airstream, so we could see this in multiple Thor products.

With Airstream, I would like to see a 23 and a 27. Prove out the two axle/one drive axle configuration. The chassis looks pretty scalable. Once it can be packaged in a shorter frame, longer versions should be easier than going the other direction.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Mattedfred

Does the j in jcl stand for Job?

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...atience-of-job

LOL. Jeff. And on some past occasions, jefe.

[Mattedfred]

Then you have the patience of El Jefe. Thanks for continuing your relentless quest for answers. I'm learning a great deal.

[panamerican]

Originally Posted by jcl

The rights to the technology are with Thor, not Airstream, so we could see this in multiple Thor products.

With Airstream, I would like to see a 23 and a 27. Prove out the two axle/one drive axle configuration. The chassis looks pretty scalable. Once it can be packaged in a shorter frame, longer versions should be easier than going the other direction.

Very much in agreement on both recent posts. Maybe I'm a bit too optimistic, but to me a 30' seems like a great place to put these since they are around 10k. Internal combustion, in some capacity though will be around in my lifetime (I'm in my early 50s), and possibly several decades beyond my time on this rock, but you are right, at some point, it's gonna happen, just not the cars with built in reactors they thought would happen in the 50s and 60s......from the same folks that made foot x-rays for the shoe stores.

I do like the smooth roof line and I do recall seeing in one of the newsletter where Airstream partnered with some aerodynamic company that wind tested some models and the lead Airstream engineer took that data back, and this could be one of the offshoots of that engagement.

One thing though. Thor may own it, but my guess is Airstream will be the first to mass market it when the time comes before it's pushed to the "lesser" brands, if they take a page out of the big 3 playbook. For example, Cadillac gets all the new toys first (for the most part) and a few years down the line, it starts to appear in Buicks, and then Chevys.

[stingray84]

Originally Posted by skyguyscott

I was envisioning a wheel assembly married to a suspension system mounted directly to the frame corner, without a tradtional axle, as there is no mechanical drive train. The frame would be engineered to carry the load rather than rest upon an axle.

There would instead be four small axles mounted at right angles to the wheel hub and suspension, each with the ability to turn independently, similar to something like this:

Interesting idea! One issue I can think of is hitching such a chassis to a TV. The trailer front weight will be either resting on the TV's hitch like the trailers of today which means the front wheels of the 4-wheel trailer will little weight to do anything useful. Or it'd rest on the front wheel like a wagon but then there'd be little weight pushing down on the TV hitch. It'd solve the issue of too much tongue weight. But does this create another problem that there's too little tongue weight such that the ball coupler could decouple during driving e.g. going through uneven road surfaces?

Steering/reversing could also be challenging even with a steerable front axle. I guess it's technically still one pivotal point around the hitch ball. Front wheels would just force steer accordingly to mitigate tire skidding.

[WhereItsAt]

The tongue could be on a vertical swivel. But passing fedex trucks with dual trailers makes me leery of pulling a four corner wheeled trailer. Even if the drive motors don't come to market, the idea of balanced trailer (1,200+ tongue weights are crazy) with an integrated large capacity battery and a roof lined with solar panels would be advantageous. Sign me up.

Originally Posted by stingray84

Interesting idea! One issue I can think of is hitching such a chassis to a TV. The trailer front weight will be either resting on the TV's hitch like the trailers of today which means the front wheels of the 4-wheel trailer will little weight to do anything useful. Or it'd rest on the front wheel like a wagon but then there'd be little weight pushing down on the TV hitch. It'd solve the issue of too much tongue weight. But does this create another problem that there's too little tongue weight such that the ball coupler could decouple during driving e.g. going through uneven road surfaces?

Steering/reversing could also be challenging even with a steerable front axle. I guess it's technically still one pivotal point around the hitch ball. Front wheels would just force steer accordingly to mitigate tire skidding.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by panamerican

Very much in agreement on both recent posts. Maybe I'm a bit too optimistic, but to me a 30' seems like a great place to put these since they are around 10k. Internal combustion, in some capacity though will be around in my lifetime (I'm in my early 50s), and possibly several decades beyond my time on this rock, but you are right, at some point, it's gonna happen, just not the cars with built in reactors they thought would happen in the 50s and 60s......from the same folks that made foot x-rays for the shoe stores.

I do like the smooth roof line and I do recall seeing in one of the newsletter where Airstream partnered with some aerodynamic company that wind tested some models and the lead Airstream engineer took that data back, and this could be one of the offshoots of that engagement.

One thing though. Thor may own it, but my guess is Airstream will be the first to mass market it when the time comes before it's pushed to the "lesser" brands, if they take a page out of the big 3 playbook. For example, Cadillac gets all the new toys first (for the most part) and a few years down the line, it starts to appear in Buicks, and then Chevys.

I agree that for North America it makes sense for the Thor electric assist trailer to be branded as an Airstream. In Europe, it would make more sense to me to make it a Dethleff product. I see that for the vision motorhome there isn’t an Airstream badge. Maybe I missed it. My assumption is that for the motorhome it isn’t as clearcut which brand to use.

[djb75]

This could be a godsend for thieves. If they can hack into your phone, they can wheel your trailer away via remote control.
Might be time to invest in a Brahma lock!