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Silvertwinkie · 10-08-2003, 01:19 PM

You know, coming off an '03 with a fair sized list, I totally know where you all are coming from.

I will say this, I don't have enough info to say thumbs up or thumbs down. Are there still issues in the '04 model year? It looks that way. Are there more folks that have '04s that are happy with it comparted to the '03 folks. The data supports that too. So as to not get ahead of ourselves, I propose we see if we get any more good or bad '04 feedback. As I said before, there are 3 units that will not have had anyone touch them except for the dealer leaving Jackson Center. Mine in particular will be picked up by the dealer as it is only 40 miles from the factory. At that time, hopefully will we not only have more info here, but also more info from the three folks with '04s straight off the line 90 days after these quality improvements were to have been implemented.

Now for the service part of the equation. I too have a poor dealer near me. So to me the option (not the favorite, but the best overall solution) was to take the unit to Jackson Center. I know that is not reasonable for some, in that case hopefully you'll have contacted Airstream or found a dealer that has a good service department. You could make a camping trip out of it...if not I have heard rumors that in worst cases, Airstream has had the units picked up and brought to Jackson Center, fixed and sent back to the customer. Keep in mind that that is not a fact that I know for sure, just rumor.

If several attempts have been made to fix a problem and Airstream can't correct the situation, you as the owner have specific legal rights under the terms of the warranty. Not being a lawyer, I cannot say for sure. I would suspect each person would have to figure out what they needed to do in these cases. There are options, but given the service motto from Airstream "servicing the heck out of our customers" I'd find it had to believe it couldn't be resolved there first somehow before the word legal ever came into play.

I've dealt with Jim, Andrea, Vicki and Rick. I have not been given the run around. Has anyone else dealt with them?

Eric

Silvertwinkie · 10-08-2003, 01:22 PM

I just read Josh's post.....and I agree, that's why I'm back in the saddle again. I trust that they are making headway. I know that doesn't help the folks that are having problems. I've talked with some offline. In the end I believe it will all work out.

I am sure Airstream won't let any of us down. I'll post more info as it becomes availible and/or in December when I actually see, touch and comb through the unit more closely.

Eric

rbyrnesanmateo · 10-08-2003, 07:03 PM

... if not I have heard rumors that in worst cases, Airstream has had the units picked up and brought to Jackson Center, fixed and sent back to the customer. Keep in mind that that is not a fact that I know for sure, just rumor.

Silvertwinkie, to let you know it is not a rumor, our 02 AS International was picked-up from our home and brought back to Jackson Center last November and brought back to us in March.

joshua32064 · 10-08-2003, 07:27 PM

Rbyrnesanmateo,

Thanks for your response. It meant a lot to me to read what you wrote.

I am glad to hear that Airstream stood by their product and made every effort to do what was necessary to correct the situation.

As long as I know that a company is more than willing to help and do the right thing, I feel comfortable with my purchase.

From the way things look, Airstream is really making the effort to make Quality Control their priority. As long as it is a priority, their product will be the absolute best on the market.

I am looking forward to seeing the new units.

idahosafari · 10-08-2003, 09:02 PM

It's great to hear that Airstream stands behind their trailers, but it must be costing them a small fortune to do so. Transporting a unit from California to Ohio for service and back again isn't cheap, The ones who wind up paying for that are future Airstream customers. It will be reflected in the price they pay for their coaches.

It seems to me that if they hired more (or more experienced) quality control people and skilled workers, Airstream would have fewer defects show up at dealer lots, be more profitable, its customer base happier with their purchases, and their trailers would be more affordable.

There must be something wrong with my logic, because it seems so simple, yet Airstream apparently didn't do it in the 2002 or 2003 model years.

**jcanavera** · 10-08-2003, 09:29 PM

It's interesting that during better economic times, in summer of 2001, Airstream was building 15 trailers a week. Now sales are hot and they are supposedly putting out 25 a week, and we are heading for the slow times of the year!

The only way you build more trailers (based on what I saw when I was there in 2001) is by adding more people on the line. The problem is you only can fit a certain number of people within the space available. Its sounds very much like a matter of too many people in too small a space, or the lack of experience of the additional workers.

BTW, I wish I had bought some Thor stock about 6 months ago. Last time I looked it had doubled.

Jack

frozen chosen · 10-08-2003, 09:47 PM

All this is eerily similar to one of my more pleasant purchases, the Big Green Egg. This is a ceramic cooker, hand made by an obscure company with a cult-like bunch of customers, even a web site who chat on the minutae of their use, their failings, the alternatives (SOBs), and a bunch of helpful advice from those that have went before. The BGE demands patience, as it is not perfect, but with that patience puts out the most incredible BBQ one has ever had. The BGE company remains aloof but watching, and never fails to fully support its customers. These things cost a fortune, break, and scare the @#%& out of my wife, but I could never imagine any other cooker. I am assuming the AS will be the same.

Silvertwinkie · 10-09-2003, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rbyrnesanmateo
...Silvertwinkie, to let you know it is not a rumor, our 02 AS International was picked-up from our home and brought back to Jackson Center last November and brought back to us in March.

That is a great customer service bit. I am very glad to hear what extremes the company is willing to go for it's customers. It fits in line with my observations of the folks I've delt with at Jackson Center......

Eric

Silvertwinkie · 10-09-2003, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Silvertwinkie
This may be adding fuel to the fire, but I believe it is relevant to the discussions....

I found this on the Airstreamer site today:

http://www.airstream.com/airstreamer...t=126&start=75

Scroll down to page 6....

I'd like to update this one as I have received some info from the unit owner as well as read subsquent posts on the Airstreamer site since the initial post.....

The unit was produced on 8/03 and Airstream will be doing extensive rework on the unit to make it in tip top shape. From what I gather, all parties are happy.....so this is yet another example of Airstream working to make the customer happy (and no I am not a company mouthpiece).

I'd also like to point out that it appears, and I repeat appears (meaning my perception only) that the dates of the units that have had some problems in '04 appear to be on or before the company announced (September '03) on their forum the ramping up of the quality of the units.

I'd be most interested in hearing from any folks taking delivery of units produced 10/03 and 11/03. This is around where I'd start to expect to see some changes and as I've said before 3 folks that we all know will be taking delivery of units built around the 12/03 timeframe to further strengthen the thought that quality is improving...

Here is the moral of the story as I see it though.... and I can't speak as to why some folks are still having any problems.......

We all assume the folks at Airstream read these posts here and on thier site. I think that's pretty much a given. I know I'd be reading up on the forums as they are a good indication on the pulse of the customer. Heck, I may even be so bold to say, at times I've shot my mouth off sometimes out of frustration.....but for the bulk of things, I have found that contacting the folks at Jackson Center has been helpful. I can only relate to this through my own work....end users get upset that something isn't working, complain to other end users, but never really tell me, so by the time I get it, it ususally has grown to a size that if only that person had come to me, it could have been nipped in the bud.

Of course, that end user I speak of didn't spend a dime on their workstation, whereas folks here spend between $30k to $100+k, so I can understand the frustration level.....I can only imagne how much hell I'd catch if my end users spent any of their own money....

Regards,

Eric

KIMILI · 10-09-2003, 12:54 PM

Quote:

...Silvertwinkie, to let you know it is not a rumor, our 02 AS International was picked-up from our home and brought back to Jackson Center last November and brought back to us in March .

I hate to spoil this but did you guys read the "whole" story of rbyrnesanmateo?
Why AS had to come and pick up the unit in the first place?
How AS - in what conditions - it returned it??!!
Go read,read!

After all they had to go through they're now repairing the unit themselves!

I'm sorry I don't agree with you on this. This is not proof of "Standing" behind your product, but of badworkmanship and lack of QA Control. Especially after a customer laments all the problems rbyrnesanmateo had to experience with his unit and you still redeliver the unit to them with the same problems and extra ones??!!
What is this a joke? Sounds more like a nightmare!

Again, I don't want to ignore the great and perfect units AS has and delivers but mistakes so easily avoidable like the ones on rbyrnesanmateo's unit, ours and many more I read here on these forums SHOULD NEVER have left the factory (or been delivered by dealers) in the first place and AS should have done MORE than just back up it's warranty.

What about the lost camping season? Anyone ever got a courtesy RV during extensive warranty repairs?
All the time and money we lose driving to the dealers &/or factory? Who covers all of this?

Eric and Joshua are right. If we had purchased any other item we would not be as tolerant!

Then what is it exactly that makes us so numb??!!

uwe · 10-09-2003, 01:14 PM

Kimili,
Not to bat a dead horse even deader, but I have to agree with you. Especially after looking a a number of '04s in the beginning of this week.
I backed out of a new trailer purchase ( 25ftCCD), and I am doubly glad now that I did. I don't wish any disappointment to the forum members that have new units on order, neither do I want to "badmouth" Airstream, but facts are facts. Sadly so.

joshua32064 · 10-09-2003, 01:20 PM

Kimili,

I definitely agree with you that quality is the main issue here and if something is done right from the start, there will less likely be problems in the future. It all goes back to the old saying, "There's no time to do it right, but there's always time to do it again."

As you know, I am not aware of all the intimate details of your or rbyrnesanmateo's discussions with the factory so I honestly can't form an opinion either way.

From everything that I have read from a lot of other forum members, although the Airstream may not be 100% perfect, things are really improving and Airstream is making a valid effort to work with the customer and make him / her happy after the purchase. The fact that you are in touch with the President of Airstream weekly means that they want to make you happy.

I would have to think that if Dicky Reigel didn't care about the overall quality of the unit, he wouldn't be working with you personally to solve the problems which you are having.

I don't know what else I can say about this. I guess we will just all have to wait and see what the new units coming off the line look like.

Silvertwinkie · 10-09-2003, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by uwe

Not to bat a dead horse even deader, but I have to agree with you. Especially after looking a a number of '04s in the beginning of this week.

I know if you go back, you said you're going to try to get the month/year of production. That info would be key.

Eric

KIMILI · 10-09-2003, 02:37 PM

I really want to be clear about this:
Airstreams are fabulous, overall their quality is good and they're beautiful and strong.

I love my TITAN!

Unfortunately they have been having some problems with their QA which, I feel confident to say, thanks to this great forum and all it's feedback, they're working hard to improve.

As somebody else here said, a company needs pressure to improve and deliver quality. We are the ones who should be pressuring them, after all we're the ones who paid!

WE ALL need to let AS know the problems/defects we found on our units. We're their customers, they're listening to us.

If we're all acceptive of what we found, but then complain on a public forum as this one, it won't help the future of AS. We need to communicate to them, express our dissapointments and encourage them to improve. Also, congratulate them when they deliver a perfect unit &/or on a job well done!

For one, I know as a fact that Mr. Riegel, the new President of AS, is interested in solving these problems.

Buy a new unit with confidence, I'm sure that the percentage of good units delivered versus ones with problems is much higher. Just, please, DON'T accept the problems you encounter and suffer in silence. Inform AS and expect them to deliver you the quality you paid for.

...It would be great if we could pay part upfront and the balance only AFTER having inspected the unit...

This said, if you're interested in the sanmateo saga you can read part of it here:
http://www.airforums.com/forum...=&threadid=596

rbyrnesanmateo · 10-09-2003, 10:00 PM

It is my belief that alot of the quality issues that AS are having are due to the lack of experience or understanding of all the new products that they are using, especially products like glues since most of them have to be enviromentally safe - lets face it: most glues aren't like they used to be and if you don't follow the instructions to the letter you're going to have failures with these products.

With all of the other quality issues, they simply need to just take a couple of extra seconds to do the job right.

Some of the problems we recently had had nothing to do with AS, but with the products supplied to them, and that is unfortunate for AS but that is who you have to deal with.

Here's a list of some other problems we had that lead to our decision to fix the trailer ourselves:

Last 4th of July we went to Newport Beach and my wife lit the pilot in the oven to prepare for dinner, after she lit the oven she closed the oven door and turned the tempature up she noticed some something wrong and opened the door to the oven and out came a flame which singed a few hairs, upon troubleshooting the problem discovered that the gas line feeding the pilot had broken so nothing was regulating the propane coming out. AS sent us a new oven as part of our agreement.

On one of the rims the clear coat peeled off. AS sent us a new rim and tire as part of our agreement.

Back sewer compartment door fell off after another trip it was only held on by double back adhesive tape and not any rivets, even went to a recent rv show and opened the door and it fell off and the next unit over was rivetted, so go figure.

Could not completely turn of bathroom faucet with hot/cold knobs had to had to use switch on side of spray nozzle. Will install seperate valves for sink and shower since bath in all-in one.

Door dead-bolt malfunctions when using key.

Dinette, when set-up as a bed and you move a certain way it just colapses, no fun in the middle of the night, maybe this item has a weight limitation 6'3'' 250+lbs.

That is a just a few more problems that we've had.

But the real question is why is AS having so many QC problems and when did it really start happening because its not there reputation.

Is it because during the big boom that thier employees went chasing the money and not the security of a stable job and for companies large and small, employee turn over is huge, because trust me seen it happen out here in california and you end up with unskilled labor trying to fill the shoes others without giving them enough time to learn.

Or is it that some employees only want to work from 9 to 5 and cash there checks on friday. I once worked for a company for over 10 years and put my heart and soul into that company and my biggest frustation was that some of the other guys just didn't care. Especially now owning my own business and having young employees and trying to get them to understand it's not just a 9 to 5 and a pay check that it is our reputation that keeps a business alive, so I am constintly reminding them of that.

I give the guys that build the chassis a big thumbs ups because I believe there are still built the same old way by hand.

It is just seems to me that the interiors are giving them such a bad time, it's just like the difference between prefab cabinet and custom built.

Not asking for custom built just realize the limitations of prefab products.

I have a saying with my business and that there are two Qs in life, one is Quantity and the other is Quality and you can't have both when it comes to workmanship, can you guess which one i believe in.

Please don't get me wrong owning my AS is wonderful thing, I'm not intentionally try to trash AS but it seems everytime we went camping people wanted to know about the AS and we told them that we love the trailer but it has problems and their reply is isn't it the cadillac of trailers, that what we thought.

And the best quote I got one time camping is ''that you didn't realize you bought a harley'', harleys use to be notorice for oil leaks.

Some of you might think I'm crazy for doing this to a trailer that is only about a 1-1/2 years old but I truly believe it's the best solution for me because I do love my trailer and all I want to do is enjoy it.

When I start putting my trailer back together I'll try to post some pictures and then you'll see how crazy I really am, hahahaha....

A final note for now:

I truly believe that most of us that own AS's is becuase of style, reputaion, quaility and owning a piece of Americana.

Just one mans opinion.

"Just rambling along"

Pahaska · 10-09-2003, 10:48 PM

I now have a truck that will pull something bigger than my International, so I was dickering with the dealer on a 2003 25 Classic that has been sitting on the lot for quite a while now. It was built 4/2003.

The shower door is attached by an adhesive strip, similar to what was used on the bumper storage door in the last post. Like the last post, the door has come loose and was propped in the shower. No big thing, but not something that should happen to a well built unit.

The worst piece of workmanship I saw is at the end of the ceiling vinyl liner between the front wraparound window and the adjacent window. There is a white plastic molding over the end of the vinyl. On the street side, it is nice and vertical. On the curb side, the liner was apparently cut too short and the molding is cocked at about a 10 degree angle. It looks absolutely horrible.

All in all, the rest of the interior was fine and if I can work a reasonable deal, I could be induced into buying the trailer. Worst thing is that I would not order the upholstery that is in it (although I could live with it) and it does not have the vinyl floor in the galley area like the 2004 model has.

KIMILI · 10-09-2003, 10:51 PM

Quote:

I was dickering with the dealer on a 2003 25 Classic

We all knew it!! New truck new AS!!

Silvertwinkie · 10-10-2003, 06:47 AM

John, John, John...you have the Canavera Classic syndrome...to which there is really only one cure leading to one final outcome!

I thought you'd keep the International for a bit longer, but you have the current record! You only took a day or two since getting the new truck!

Eric

KIMILI · 10-10-2003, 10:41 AM

Quote:

With all of the other quality issues, they simply need to just take a couple of extra seconds to do the job right.

Absolutely!
We had the same feeling with ours: all the pencil marks still there, screws on the floor, wrong holes left open, furniture mounted crooked, latches not screwed properly etc.

Sorry to hear you're still having problems with your AS

Seeems there's a bunch of leprecons in there having fun at your expense

As soon as you have pics please post, we'd love to see! Also work in progress.

He's going to be one handsome AS!Good luck!!

Turtle · 10-10-2003, 06:15 PM

I received a call from Airstream responding to the complaints I made on my new trailer survey. They were the general "fit and finish" issues I made earlier in this post. I'm delighted to say they are sending out an owners manual for our 16'CCD. Rhonda, the rep. who called me seemed very concerned about the recent problems at Airstream and said they are taking it seriously.

Jamie