1968 24' Tradewind
1968 26' Overlander
Detroit
, Michigan
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 467
You’ve been busy, Jerry! Awesome progress. I think the AC looks just fine. Honestly, my eyes didn’t make it past that “oh so shiny” aluminum. Such a nice looking trailer. Looking forward to catching up in a week at the Roasterie.
Brian-Thanks, I've gotten bogged down because of a couple glitches. My Marmoleum got "ordered" after my dimensions got measured, but when I went to check a delivery date, it hadn't been ordered by my local commercial floorworks supplier. That's been rectified and I think the linoleum should be in town in the next week or so. That's prevented me from putting the shower pan in place. As you know, it's more of a serial process than parallel. I've been using my time to get my woodworking shop all ready to start the case-goods reproduction. It will be great to catch up at the Roasterie. Have you been talking to Slats and TTBikes? Jerry
1968 24' Tradewind
1968 26' Overlander
Detroit
, Michigan
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 467
Renovating these old trailers is definitely like playing dominos. I noted in Hollie’s thread that you picked up a CNC router. You’ll definitely be able to put that to use on your trailer. I used my brother’s. I hadn’t thought to use it on bulkheads. Good idea.
I’m considering picking up Peachtree’s template tool for the Overlander:
Brian- that's a little more floor space than I can alot. But they are deal changers. Less waste in your hardwood plywoods, better accuracy. I'm hoping to put a wood edge on my plywood booth sides, so I don't have to look at any plywood core cuts. See you Saturday. Jerry
Brian- that's a little more floor space than I can alot. But they are deal changers. Less waste in your hardwood plywoods, better accuracy. I'm hoping to put a wood edge on my plywood booth sides, so I don't have to look at any plywood core cuts. See you Saturday. Jerry
Do you mean edgebanding? If so I support this decision. I don't like to see the guts of the plywood in most situations.
Brian- Yes on edge-banding, but I don't want the possibility of it lifting. There are about 8 ways you can edge band and there's an Amana pair of router bits that cut a V groove with a central slot, that gives a lot of glue surface. I may be guilding the lilly, but on end-grain edges, I'd like to make end grain edge banding. My booth end, just adjacent to the door, has curved contours in 3/4" plywood. With the Shaper Origin, I can digitize that curve and then cut the new one, then I can change the offset in it and cut some solid stock the dimension that gives the tongue of the central slot and then run the other bit in my router table and make a mating insert, at least that's what I'm going to try to do. Good rainy day project. Jerry
Jerry, I switched to your thread concerning the Walter of Wabash wooden slides. I didn’t want to piggyback on David F’s site. If you look on our thread at post #220, it shows a simple way to make the slides. I don’t have a router table so used a table saw. Anyway, you can make side slides for drawers. The slides have two 3/4” pieces with a dovetail dado that a shaped dowel slides into. If a drawer front were 1/2” larger than the drawer box, you could make the slide rails 1/2” instead of 3/4” like original. That would mean a shallow dowel which is OK. You could even place the slides on the bottom with full extension. One slide member secured to the framing and the other member secured to the drawer box. Hope this isn’t clear as mud.
Bubba- thanks, the pics on your post help. There's a lot more clearance than I thought there would be. I'll play around with some nice flat grain hardwood on my router bench. Jerry
Can you give advice for laying sheet Marmoleum? A friend of mine who has done an amazing job on her Argosy is at the stage where she wants to install Marmoleum (the shell is on). She has researched and is worried about the recommended underlayment (1/4" clear birch). Not only is it expensive, but it raises things considerably.
I've got a real professional doing the Marmoleum. He does great work, and I'm on his schedule pretty soon. My job is a filler in his schedule, so it will be on short notice that he does mine. Everything about Marmoleum is very specific. The mastic and the weld/filler got ordered from the manufacturer. I'll make sure I have some time to watch his magic as he lays it. He's the top commercial installer in my city. I'll follow up on this after he's done and recap his steps in the process. I have new 3/4 sub-floor and I have a seam down the middle and a cross seam about 8' back. Leo the installer plans on just using floor prep or bondo to cover the screws, and nothing special about the seams. I was prepared to rout out a 3" strip 5 mm deep between screws in the middle seam and glue a plywood "doubler" in place, but Leo didn't think that was necessary. Jerry
BentMetal, Jerry is right, your friend would do well to find the best Marmoleum installer she can. That's what I did. He came and looked at the trailer, went through the installation requirements [which he recommended that we adhere to verbatim], and then he gave me options. While it may not work in the case of the Argosy due to the size difference [I have a 17' Caravel], he recommended going with the large [40"] tiles. His point was that the result would look essentially the same and I could do the install myself for a lot less.
It also was the case that it would be at least another month, if not more, before he could work me into his install schedule. Because I had already waited for several months just for the Marmoleum to be ordered, and my resto could not proceed until the flooring was in, I decided to see what the alternative pricing would be. It was about 2/3's cheaper, all in. So I reached out to the owner of Northern Dutchess Floors in Red Hook, NY, thanked him for his time, and let him know I had decided go go with the large tiles. He reiterated he thought that was the right approach for my trailer.
I found a direct, online Marmoleum source who was materially cheaper and could have the tiles shipped from Forbo to the site within a week, along with the Forbo mastic and specially formulated mastic remover (neither of which are cheap but both are very effective).
We put in the quarter inch plywood underlayment, but we decided to run the pieces crosswise rather than lengthwise, because of the way the breaks lined up with the door, where foot traffic would be heaviest. I did cover up the underlying screws...it didn't take that long to apply, dry and sand the entire surface with an orbital sander...but again, the inside length of my trailer is only 14 feet.
The install was done in a couple days...the curved and custom edges is what takes the longest. I then covered up the flooring with cardboard and construction paper.
All things being equal, I would have preferred a single sheet install. But here, it didn't make sense because the full sheets are about 6' 7" wide, which means I would have still had to patch the full length of the street side which would have meant a lot of waste if I wanted to keep the tiles all going the same direction..
I have chronicled the installation in my resto thread (referenced below), where I detail the impact of the additional 1/4" height of the floor on the reinstallation of the original shower surround. Over all though, it makes for a very solid floor under foot. If your friend is interested in any additional photos, happy to post them when we uncover the rest of the floor.
One word of caution to your friend and to Jerry...because Marmoleum is made using linseed oil so no off-gassing, the tile will arrive with a noticeably different colorway...mine was the most odd yellow-green color, for tiles that should have been a creamy off white with faint streaks of tan and gray. I called the company I bought them from, in a panic. The guy laughed and asked if I had read the warning on his site...clearly, not...all Marmoleum tiles have this yellow-green hue to them when they are removed from the box, due to the linseed oil. He suggested I lay the tiles out in direct sunlight...and though I was sure this was nuts, I needed to get the flooring installed...so I spread the tiles out all over the yard in the end of July sun, and within a couple of hours, the colorway of the sun-soaked tiles was spot on to the sample, and noticeably less yellow-green...phew! Hope this helps. Hollie
__________________
Flostream66
WBCCI #4597
VAC Region 2
Can you give advice for laying sheet Marmoleum? A friend of mine who has done an amazing job on her Argosy is at the stage where she wants to install Marmoleum (the shell is on). She has researched and is worried about the recommended underlayment (1/4" clear birch). Not only is it expensive, but it raises things considerably.
I don’t understand the reasoning for “clear” birch. I do understand not wanting open knots. It should be hardwood lumber core. We installed the sheet Marmoleum in both our trailers. Since we had to rebuild all the interior cabinetry anyway, the added height of the 1/4” (actually the 3/4” and 1/4” thicknesses are slightly less) was not an issue. We cut and fit the plywood then took them out, reassembled, and overlaid them on the Marmoleum as a pattern. We installed the plywood following the Forbo installation requirements. Since we have cabinetry along the street side of both trailers, that side is where we spliced in the 6” strip (since Marmoleum is not made as a standard width wide enough for our trailers, we placed the splice underneath the cabinetry). Just make sure all your recommended staples for the 1/4” plywood is spaced as recommended and there are absolutely none standing “proud” of the surface. Anything sticking above will telescope through. Be careful when you install not to kink the sheet, you can create a mark. Just follow the installation requirement and roll it correctly using the right weighted roller. Good luck
Hollie and Bubba thanks for your input. Hollie a special thanks for the comment about the colors of Marmoleum being a little on the green side. I missed that, and that is the reason that I went with Piano Black. Everything in the beige pallet looked green, and I had a real miss-cue in an office build recently, with LED lights tending to make things look green, I wanted an amber glow in the windows warmth, not a coolness. The extra strip that I needed worked out well with my Sprinter, since it was narrower that the rolls, by just a little more than what I needed in the Caravel. The Sprinter will be my alternative living space, when my wife gives me that "don't you have somewhere to go" look. Jerry
Just a quick update today. My flooring guy had a breakthrough and it looks like we'll be laying Marmoleum this weekend. We'll keep an eye on the weather to make sure we are above the minimum temp. I ran some extra wiring getting ready to button up the walls, including some coax for a future rooftop TV antenna, and some Cat6 for some future wifi and PoE options. I also fabbed up a camera mount that sits below my license plate, and ran a cable up to the front of the trailer, and I'll use a pigtail connector to the TV, that plugs into a receptacle to the SS of the A-frame. I used 0.032 T-0 2024 and I think it's just too soft. I dropped the piece while I was squeeze riveting and it is very easy to bend. I like my design, but will make one like it out of T-3 on a rainy day.
The best paint on the vinyl skins method seems to be a thorough cleaning with Krud Kutter, then multiple soft water pressure washer rinses, then a wipe down with isopropyl alcohol and then a light scuff with some kitchen stainless steel scouring pads and then a wipe down with alcohol. I had some automotive vinyl paint mixed in a rattle can as well as for my HVLP gun. Both work great. I used the rattle can for the small panels between the windows. No tackiness after shooting with the ready to spray automotive vinyl paint. It was just a mental breakthrough to get the insulation over the wiring and the inside skins installed from ceiling down to the bottom of the windows.
I've got my lower skins mostly fitted, and I'll work fast and furious to get those fitted so that I'm not scratching my Marmoleum after it's in. No new photos today. Hopefully friday before the flooring and Sunday after. Jerry
Today was a breakthrough. After a long wait, the Marmoleum flooring was installed today. Leo is considered the best flooring installer in Kansas City and is a real perfectionist. Any further reference to we should be interpreted as 90% Leo effort and 10% Jerry.
I wanted to take photos to show how specific the install of the product is. Marmoleum is a modern day linoleum that is made of ground cork and linseed oil. It is considered very environmentally friendly and low maintenance.
My process started with the ordering of about three different flooring possibilites. I considered some vinyl products that are marine rated, cork and Marmoleum. All the companies that I considered were extremely generous mailing out samples and in two instances a second round of samples. One of the things that led me to my choice of Piano as the color and pattern in Marmoleum was that all the Forbo Marmoleum samples had a little green tinge in the beige and off white family. Flostream66 pointed out recently that the samples are initially a little green, until the linseed oil cures in time and they loose that tint. I missed that on Forbo's website, and recently had a design crisis in my office recently constructed, in the paint which was an off white had a mint green tint with the LED lighting. My interior skins had a little pink undertone even after painting with a Camel Beige vinyl paint, because I didn't want the build of a white vinyl compatible primer. After looking at all the samples initially in my garage with florescent light, and then in the driveway in daylight, the safe bet was a warm tone charcoal. Piano is the color that I chose, feeling it was neutral enough, though not in keeping with BubbaL's keep it light and bright dictum.
The flooring job obviously is for naught if not for a good subfloor. Paul Mayeaux put my shell on a new frame with a new 3/4" marine grade plywood floor. My factory seams were transverse, but Paul put my subfloor on with a seam down the middle and one cross seam, so it took at least one less sheet. All seams are well supported and held in place with Torx counter-sunk screws.
Step 1 was to check to see if any sat proud. The few that were high were tightened down to sit below the surface.
Step 2 in our case was to make a template. My black water tank is new and was secured and the valving that ties it to the gray water tank was well calked and flashed under the trailer, so it worked best to lift it with a nylon strap and make measurments to make a U-shaped cut-out for the drain pipe through the floor. Marmoleum doesn't have to have expansion planned into the install like vinyls, and as such is held in place with a mastic that is solvent based. Leo prides himself on his installs, and I had already had to trim many of my lower skins on the lower side, since with a shell off, the height of the trailer isn't exactly like it used to be. Our template material was a felt that is used in flooring to isolate subfloor cracks and act as shim material. It was 36" wide and worked well. A little trick that Leo showed me was to take the time to place it curl down on the floor, to keep from wrestling with it rolling up while your working. He also made V-cuts and lifted the V to tape the pattern to the subfloor.
The Marmoleum comes 6'7" wide and my '68 is about 7'3" wide give or take, so there would be a seam. With the layout of the Caravel, laying the flooring long wise down the trailer and seaming it on the SS is probably the best option, though I would have purchased less if I had Leo have two seams cross-wise. In my case, I have an alternative TV that needed flooring, and I would pick up the strip I needed by taking it off the future job on my Sprinter.
Step 3 is very important and not obvious. The factory edge isn't necessarily the same thickness as the material as a whole, so there is a tool that Leo uses that takes off about 3/8" from one side to give a perfect 90 degree edge of the material thickness. Much like a jointer does in woodworking. This just had to be done to the main piece, and not the strip that is added to the SS, because of the tool that is used to make the seam.
Step 4 was to transcribe the template to the full width piece, that Leo was confident in cutting just 1/2" longer than the trailer. The threshold was prepped with a single pass of a thin carbide wheel between the Aluminum casting and the subfloor to assure a tight but slip fit, so that the flooring wouldn't curl at the door.
Step 5 could have been done earlier, but it was to use floor prep mixed with just enough water to get a good consistency and a fairly quick dry.
Step 6 was to cut the main piece to the scribed line, but not cutting in the holes for the gas lines, drains and the trailer tail light harness coming through the floor. The corners of the fenders were radiused to prevent cracking at the corners.
Step 7 was to roll the Marmoleum the same way it came from the factory and move it into the trailer and then carefully and gently unroll and nudge it into position. Leo's template was so good, that only about 1/16" needed to be removed along both inside edges of the fender wells. The bottom drain cutout for the black water tank was cut after double checking the location with a framing square. A U cut was made and then the material was buckled and slipped under the black water tank, then the wheel well cut-out pieces were perfect for the strip behind the wheel well on the SS. With the fit perfect, and with only the cut-out made for the black water tank drain and the fresh water fill pipe, once again the material was gently pulled back and a generous radius was employed to hold the material so that mastic could be put on the SS from the midline subfloor seam front to back with the appropriate trowel. All without a mess.
Step 8 was to slip the SS flooring back into position with the black water tank held up about 1 1/2" off the floor except for the drain pipe. The two SS slivers were placed with the forward one having mastic on the floor and the aft one having the mastic on the back jute of the Marmoleum. Then the flooring was rolled midline to SS edge and middle to front and middle to back, then once again checking the fit to make sure that it hadn't slipped. The roller used was probably about a 10# roller, not the 100# type. To avoid any crumbs or chips being trapped in the mastic, Leo was meticulous and used a fine hand held dust broom, and didn't rely on vacuum, although I had removed all the aluminum drill turnings and the like before Leo arrived.
Step 9 was to fold back the CS material to be able to see the midline of the subfloor and apply the mastic, then very carefully put the flooring into position and then cut in the gas lines, the CS vent stack hole and the shower drain hole. Everything was rolled in place and the perimeter had a no gap fit all the way around.
Step 10 was to seam in the strip forward of the wheel well on the SS. The main piece had been prepped on the hangar floor with the cutting tool, and the strip was placed up against the C-channel with an overlap over the main piece with the mastic in place. The front curve was cut freehand, and then a tool that slips under the strip and rests up against the prepped main piece us used to make two cuts through the strip for a perfect seam. Once that was rolled into place, a V groove tool is used on a heavy straight edge to expose the jute and make a groove to receive the welding rod. The SS forward strip was welded and the forward strip aft of the wheel well was welded, then two passes are made to remove the proud weld material to a flush finish. A heated teflon spoon tool is then used to burnish the weld.
Step 11 was to go home and get Mrs flyboy and an adult beverage to admire Leo's work. It took from 7 am til 3:30 pm to do the entire job, which is nothing short of perfect. This is a job for a professional, unless you do it before the shell is placed back on the subfoor, which would make for about 1/2 the work.
Looks good, Jerry! I am, as you know, entrenched in the Bubba go light camp to stay true to the original off white floor tiles found in my trailer. But the color flooring you have chosen will cause the floor to drop away once everything is in, putting emphasis on the cabinetry and other elements. Given some of the other colors and design aesthetics you plan to use, you made a great design choice. I will enjoy following as you build upon this solid foundation.
__________________
Flostream66
WBCCI #4597
VAC Region 2
1976 25' Tradewind
Currently Looking...
Flushing
, Michigan
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 171
The Marmoleum looks great. We used the same product in our ‘76 Trade Wind rebuild and, yes, we used a professional to install it—as they say “don’t try this at home”. With an expensive flooring choice I did not want to skimp on having it laid properly. Our shell off included a thicker subfloor—3/4” tongue and groove “Plytanium Dry Ply” with a 1/4” subfloor atop that as the recommended base for the Marmoleum installation. I never thought of putting the finish floor down before reattaching the shell 😳. Y’all did a great job! Here are a couple photos of our finish floor—there is a lengthwise seam on the roadside, all but a foot or so will be covered/hidden by cabinetry.
Jerry it looks great and nice color. I like protection a solid sheet gives knowing that no spills or overhead leaks can make it to the floor.
I don't agree with the other posters, that it has to be done by a professional. I laid the Safari floor with no previous experience. I think a handy person using your detailed explanation should do fine. It's those first cuts in that $1000 piece of flooring that are a little scary.
I am sure my joints are not a good as your pro's and I even skipped the welding step. In the Safari, there are only two feet of joint visible and it's under the table. A good subfloor and a good template are the keys. I built my template out of roll of construction paper when the shell was off. Plan to do it again for the Ambassador except I will have to figure out the welding as more joint is visible. Thanks for the good write up. - Mark
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