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Old 09-20-2020, 01:47 PM   #121
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Since no one has the expertise in renovating all years of Airstreams in all decades, you may consider having co-authors with the expertise in each year, or multiples in each decade that know that particular year Airstream.
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Old 09-20-2020, 02:11 PM   #122
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I completely agree, Bubba. Lots of nuance to consider with the different model years but of course lots of cross cutting information that applies to all. I don’t want this idea to derail Mark’s renovation thread so I’ll start a new thread with the collaborative renovation book proposal.
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Old 09-20-2020, 06:54 PM   #123
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I would help with what knowledge I have. My day job is ... NOTHING. So I have time on my hands.

Now, back to "one bite Mark".

David
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Old 09-21-2020, 04:27 AM   #124
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Wow, a lot of great ideas. I think this might work. Brian, when you get the new thread up, please feel free to announce it here.

Regarding the Ambassador, it is on a holding pattern. My oldest daughter just bought a duplex 15 minutes from our house, so now I am helping "restore" that. Since it's not a shell off, it should go pretty quick.

The Ambassador is currently water and rodent tight, so it depends on the weather how far we get this fall. I had hoped to have the insulation, wiring and internal walls in before the snow flies, but we will see. I am realizing just how different customizing is from restoring. On the Safari, we wanted to make it look like it just rolled off the factory floor. The Ambassador we want to mold to our whims. It turns out our whims are endless and constantly changing. Once the walls are in, then decisions will be made and hardware purchased. Until then my Sketchup 3D model is getting a workout. - Mark
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Old 09-21-2020, 06:16 AM   #125
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Very cool you are using SketchUp 3D modeling for your project. That is a whole new level of add sophistication. It would certainly help the "oh shoot" moments when I discover what I did won't fit with what I'm doing now. Rework again.

Also cool you will design your own interior. I'm waiting with baited breath to see if you decide on a mid bath layout with the vanity and toilet on one side, and a shower room on the other side of the aisle. Modern Airstreams are built this way in some cases. Bedroom in the back.

David
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Old 09-21-2020, 09:25 AM   #126
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Ok... here is the link to the collaborative book thread: https://www.airforums.com/forums/f41...de-214584.html
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Old 07-17-2021, 05:11 PM   #127
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I just finished reading that last couple of pages of this thread and realized just how much I enjoyed interacting with you guys. Between COVID and the diversion of rebuilding/restoring my daughters house I have spent very little time working on the Ambassador. I do not want this to be that thread goes all gangbusters only to just stop with the project incomplete. Time to get back to work.

One of the things I have been struggling with is exactly "What do I want to do?". Much easier with the Safari when I could just make it like it came from the factory. Now with a blank slate, there are so many options. More than once I have come up with a layout, put it on the floor with tape and decided with inputs from the boss, it just wouldn't work.

So here is the firm plan as of now (subject to revision of course). I want to design and build the water, heat/cooling and electric systems that might be common 25 years in the future. Lots of solar, lots of batteries and no propane. I know many others on the forums have accomplished this, so no big deal. But I am having fun trying to figure out how to make a workable system. What excites me is not what I am putting into the trailer, but what I can leave out. Add a lot of solar, but no propane tanks, piping, valves or propane detector. Add a composting toilet, but no black water tank, waste plumbing or stinky slinky. I would like a rig that could comfortable go off grid for a week with two people. If we watched the water (and the grey tanks dripped a bit ), maybe longer.

I also have an end date in mind. The WBCCI International rally next year will be in Fryeburg, Maine in July. That's only 139 miles from my house. So the timer is ticking.

Any way, if any body still watches this channel, I would love to hear your comments and ideas. - Mark
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Old 07-17-2021, 07:06 PM   #128
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Hello from Colorado again. Getting reacquainted I guess. Life happens and houses have to be rebuilt. You may know I spent all winter in my son's 69 Globe Trotter 21'; the first year of the new body style. It was a well built trailer in its day, but the bath layout was not my favorite. So we went with a rear oversized twin bed, mid "powder room" and a new galley cabinet as the bath took 6" of room from the old galley. The front U dinette/big bed and fridge and heater cabinets stayed. It was a fun project for me. It is mostly done, waiting new blinds.

I have read several threads where guys installed big solar systems with big batteries with big inverters to run the air conditioner or furnace and microwave at the same time. It is also a big investment, but likely would pay back at the time of sale. Solar systems are quite popular.

As mentioned earlier, consider a mid bath layout if it makes sense to you. It will be a smaller bathroom, but having access to the bath from the front room without walking through the bed room is handier I think.

Glad to hear you are going to start in again on that nice old Ambassador 28'.

David
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Old 07-19-2021, 10:19 AM   #129
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Sounds like a great plan Mark! We will be closely following your progress and how the final Ambassador design develops. We love watching a good build!
MsRivet and I are closer to completing the exterior of our Liner and soon to begin on its interior work and hope to pick up some good ideas from your build.

We found our Liner several years before we actually started working on it and have spent endless hours working through what we wanted the final result to be. We have a rough idea of the layout that we want but we know that we will have to make adjustments as we work through the final design and construction. We only have a wardrobe and chest of drawers left from the original interior so we have the rest of the trailer to figure out. We are taking the advice of a friend of ours that has completed numerous restorations on Airstreams to build a rough full interior mock-up utilizing inexpensive materials(1”x2”s, luan panels or card board). This will be constructed prior to the rough-in of systems installation so that we can have an accurate idea of their final locations. Doing a full mock-up will show any issues with the build design such as door swing or drawer extension interferences and will give us a visual of what the final results will be.

We are also trying to build the Liner so that we can live off grid for up to a week. We have on occasions used our 2004 International to do just that and will use those experiences to influence our design. We will be tagging along with your build and are very interested in how your interior and systems design and installation progress.

Safe Travels!!
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Old 07-21-2021, 10:23 AM   #130
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Hey Mark, glad to hear you're still at it, been enjoying your work and threads. I've gone through similar things with doing a '76 Argosy basically back to stock through several other trailers ( including a '61 Ambasssador) to the current '68 Overlander where nothing is as it was. First up and easiest I think is a compressor fridge. I wanted it under a 36" counter so went with a dometic crx110, about 4 cu. ft. Holds enough for a week for us, 3.8 amps dc running and after you figure out how to arrange the inside, very effective. Obviously no issues running it on the road. In the '68 it went to the other side of the trailer.
Toilet, bath, tanks... have now done 3 where I removed the black tank, installed usually about a 35 gal. gray tank, we like the porta-potti curve but not a big difference to do a composting (except a curve is currently $175?). In the '68 I eliminated the entire bath for basically a rear bedroom. We have just 1 sink, the original, mid-trailer, an outdoor shower, and the toilet stows in the closet. We have no overhead lockers bu tons of storage.
Took lots of sitting in the trailer with a beer considering options, mocking up with old walls, really helps to have the major new components on hand.
I also think if I'm not doing floor, wiring, plumbing, insulation etc. how bad could it be to move a wall or build a new cabinet.
Looking forward to seeing what you do.
Mark D
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Old 07-22-2021, 04:55 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdes8 View Post
Took lots of sitting in the trailer with a beer considering options, mocking up with old walls, really helps to have the major new components on hand.
Mark D, that's funny, I don't think I can count the number of beers consumed doing exactly that.

Nice looking trailer, I love the open feeling of the space.

Couple of questions:

The Dometic looks like a good option. What do you have for battery capacity and how do you replenish it?

What are you doing for heat and is there a stove?

I have a hard time spending so much for a compost toilet as well. My current thinking is to build one using one of these https://separett.shop/collections/to...ucts/privy-501 The liquid would feed into the grey. I was also thinking of modifying it slightly to use the bathroom sink water to "flush" the liquid side.

Substituting an outdoor shower for indoor I hadn't thought of. That would allow that space that seldom gets used to be turned into storage. Another good idea.

How much 120v do put in your trailers? And what do you use it for?

I think we share many of the same design goals. Sorry for so many questions. Thanks - Mark S
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Old 07-22-2021, 11:08 AM   #132
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Well I wrote a nice reply but by the time I hit send it timed me out. Don't know why this happens at times. I'm not that slow a typist...
Quick recap...250 ah AGM, 400 watts deployed solar, Victron 100/30,BMV712.
Standard 6 space 120v volt box, 10 total outlets, 20 amp circuits, 12awg marine wire. Tried Wave6 cat heater, not enough, now 20k btu regular furnace.
Dometic 3 burner high efficiency stove.
Would be happy to talk on phone, just PM me, I'm retired.
Good luck, Mark D
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Old 07-29-2021, 02:12 PM   #133
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Insulation

Mark D, sorry you lost the nice reply, but thanks for answering all my questions. To keep this from happening, I usually write my "big" posts in Notepad and then copy and paste into the forum. That's what I am doing now.

Next steps in the interior are rewiring the running lights, installing the insulation and adding the behind the wall wiring.

But what type of insulation to use? On the Safari I used PRODEX and Rockwool and it seems fine. But I was wondering if polyIso hard insulation might even be better. So I decided to come up with an experiment.

I started by building a box with four equal compartments. Old belly pan aluminum was cut into eight 12"x12" squares and would form the top and the bottom of each compartment. They were separated by 1 1/2" or about the depth of the wall cavity.
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Into each of these compartments I installed different insulation strategies. The first had a layer of PRODEX and then rockwool.

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The next had two layers of PRODEX separated by 1/2" Iso spacers.
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The next had a 1/2" Iso board with 1/2" Iso spacers on each side.
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The last had a 1/2" Iso spacer and then two layers of 1/2" Iso.
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The idea was to set it out in the noon day sun and take temperature readings every 15 minutes on both the top and the bottom of each cell. Here is the finished box. I painted everything flat black to maximize the heat input and also make it easier to read with my IR probe.
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Once I run the test, I decided on two follow on tests. First I tipped the panel to 45 degrees to see if internal circulation would make a difference. And then finally I removed the dual PRODEX from a cell and repeated the test to generate a no insulation case.

Conditions were great in the first test, bright blue sky with little wind. The second two tests were conducted with a light wind and intermittent clouds so are not as consistent.

Here are the results. I believe the best way to present this is as a temperature delta. The higher the delta, the better the insulation is working.

Results of the first horizontal test. Notice that is a 55 degree temperature difference. Insulation works.
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45 degree angle test. Notice smaller deltas, it was later in the afternoon and being at an angle received less radiation.
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Repeat of the horizontal test with one empty cell. Intermittent clouds and a light wind.
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Bottom line - No clear winner. Not really much of a difference between the different types. The one thing that was clear is you definitely want something in there. - Mark
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Old 07-29-2021, 06:21 PM   #134
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Hi steinVT: The engineer in you is coming out. What a great experiment. Maybe you can calculate the "R" factor in each insulation scheme. Bottom line like you said, we certainly need something there to keep us cool or warm.

David
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Old 07-30-2021, 10:01 AM   #135
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Hey Mark, good test rig... I think what most of us have suspected/known for a while, get something in there but it's only going to do so much. I've never seen real Pro-dex but I suspect it's a lot like this HVAC stuff I've used, 1/4 " foam with foil on either side, glued it to the inside of the outer skins. Then another HVAC product, 1 1/2 fiberglass with a foil on 1 side, fits nice, easy to cut, etc. I like the foil for reflective properties. I've also used the 1 1/2" thinsulate that the van guys all use, made widow covers and it's excellent. I think I would try that in my next insulation job.
Keep on moving... Mark D
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Old 07-31-2021, 10:26 PM   #136
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Mark I like your strategy. Will make a great boondocker.

Outdoor shower is a great idea. I had one in the cockpit of our cruising sailboat, never used the one below.

I want to add a composting toilet but the cost is a deterrent and I haven’t had the bandwidth - or need - to design something affordable.

Thanks for the ideas. We ran conduit and pipe down to the ambassador so we’ll have power and water when I apply myself and buy some wire. Might air bnb it once I build an outdoor shower.
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Old 08-01-2021, 05:22 AM   #137
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David, I had thought about building a thermo model to take in the effect of the ribs, which I think is huge. I decided there were too many variables so I went this basic experiment. It's given me the freedom to use pretty much anything I want. I will end up using three of the four options I tested (no rock wool).

Mark D, I didn't even try fiberglass because of my experience with the Safari and it's extensive mouse habitat. My first line of defense was sealing the belly pan and the second is insulating with something they don't like.

Cheoah, I totally agree that composting toilets are over priced. I am going to design something using this separating bowl.

https://separett.shop/collections/to...ucts/privy-501

I will add an exhaust fan, plumb the liquid side into the grey tank and use the sink waste water to flush the bowl. Should work well - Mark
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Old 05-06-2022, 06:00 AM   #138
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It's been a while since I have posted in this thread. Not that I haven't been busy. When I restored the Safari, I knew exactly what I had to do, just not always how to do it. That was the fun engineering part. Now with the Ambassador, it is a blank slate. I can do anything and it's been a kind of "Paralysis by Analysis".

There has been a little real work done on the Ambassador, 80% of the insulation is up. I decided to go with a double layer of PRODEX on the end caps and a double layer of 1/2" ISO foam on the walls. Also rewired/replaced the trailer running lights.
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Most of the effort has been in design. Let me first show you pictures of my center bath, queen rear model. I really loved the bedroom with it's four windows. I also like the idea of a really long drawer under the bed that would be accessed thru the rear hatch. I thought we could have all of our outdoor stuff in there. The bath and the kitchen looked like they would work as well. If anyone else plays with Sketchup and would like any of these models to play with, just let me know.
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After all of that modelling work, the concept was derailed by a very simple thing. My wife and I share a split King bed and being able to raise my head a couple of inches was a game changer regarding my snoring, but it doesn't work well for her. A split queen would be strange. So back to the original concept, mid-twins and rear bath.

Prior to making the mid-bath model, I had roughed in a rear bath version. Because this would become the basis of many thousands of dollars of purchases, I spent time cleaning it up and making it accurate. I must say I am in awe of you guys doing all this type of design with a paper sketch.
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Trailer design is really a study in packaging and being able to try multiple options in a 3D model is liberating. That and to be able to get an idea what it will look like when you are standing inside is cool too. All this 3D modeling is self taught, so it's not too difficult, just takes time.
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My plan is to use the next several posts to present my design elements for collective analysis and review. This forum is an incredible resource with so many experts and I am looking forward to continuing our discussions where we left off nine months ago. - Mark
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Old 05-06-2022, 06:35 PM   #139
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Greetings steinVT: Hope your winter went better than mine. I spent all winter polishing aluminum sheet. Boring dirty drudgery.

Sketch up? I never learned 3D modeling, but I remember some programs like ProE and the like. Your sketches look great. I never learned how to do it.

Our 86 Limited 34' is a rear twin bed layout and mid bath. It is important design criteria to make the necessary features to make sleeping comfortable, which is likely different for many of us. I think a mid bath is a more logical floor plan. The rear bath in the 75 Overlander 27' is big, sure. But you gotta walk through the bedroom to get to it. Not the best if that is where the grandkids are sleeping. Just one opinion only.

I think the U shaped dinette is good. We have one in the 69 Globetrotter 21'. I provides a great place of a card game, and provides a large sleeping surface for two.

Thanks for the update on the 62 Ambassador 28'. You're going to have a fun summer building it out.

David
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Old 05-06-2022, 07:42 PM   #140
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Mark, your plan looks great. In one of the sketches it looks like a mini split condenser on the tongue. You have plenty of thinking and planning. Nothing but fun stuff. Keep us updated on your progress. Good luck
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