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Slats · 07-11-2015, 12:33 PM

I sort of figured from reading about black tanks and grey tanks on this forum that one was for mildly nasty and the other for real nasty, so was a little surprised when I pulled up the floor and saw only one tank, and a white one, at that, which I promptly busted through with my pry bar. Thanks for the explanation.

I've run a few autocrosses, but I am definitely not up to the level of your son. The last one did was in my 1M, which was, frankly, a little scary. That car has so much power and torque that a relative novice like me has no business driving it at more than half throttle. But it is fun to pull alongside some 20 somethings at a stoplight and see them thinking, "What the devil is that old man doing driving that car?"

cwbiii · 07-11-2015, 10:37 PM

I did a couple and I didn't think they were scary at all... but we have a large BMW club here in the Boston area and they run a very good program. The autocross event is held on the tarmac of the former Ft Devens air field.
Right behind the State Police barracks. Lots of room to goof up and not hit anything but a few cones. I really got to push and understand how my car performs under extreme pressure. That's always good to know when something goes sideways on the road and you have to act hard and fast to miss something. I commute 46 miles to work, mostly on the highway and things get hairy every once in a while... I have eyes in the back of my head when brake lights start coming on without a good reason. I had my son help me to modify the brake light programming to use the strobing option... it strobes the brake lights when you brake hard and the harder you brake the faster it strobes.
This gets the attention of the person behind you and gives them a little more to time to react safely. One time I dove into the brake down lane and the guy slid through the spot I was in and just missed the car I was behind. He could have pulled in behind me instead and not have had to slide to a stop but did not have the presence of mind or reactions to do that... just stand on the brake and pray. Being cool and calm in a crisis situation is something I have always had... scared, yes but still calm and in control. I'm certain it has saved my life on several occasions.

Chuck

cwbiii · 07-13-2015, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slats

Sounds like many of the same things I plan to replace. How about posting some pics or pasting in a link to some? I may be leaning on you for tips on what appliances you picked and why.

As for the garage, I am fortunate to have a nephew who lives about 30 miles away with that building on his land. It is the perfect setup for doing the full monty.

My wife is an interior designer and she picked out the stove she specifically wanted... it was a bit of a special order. We went to a local RV store and cut a deal for all of our appliances in one shot. The furnace and water heater weighed a small fraction of what they replaced. Filling in the big open void in the shell to look decent took some doing. The stove and fridge were spot on size replacements for the originals. The sink was larger and deeper. I bought a bunch of used Corian from a kitchen re-do and cut it up to use for new counter surfaces. You can see from the pictures her influence on the design elements and finishes. We work well together as long as she's not hovering over me while I'm working and vice-versa.

BTW, here's a pic of the current status of the wagon project...

Chuck

Slats · 07-14-2015, 08:00 PM

I'll be leaning on you for info about appliances. Did you switch the positions of the sink and stove?

That M badge looks good there.

cwbiii · 07-15-2015, 04:51 PM

Nope, the appliances are exactly where they were from the factory. Different years and models had them in slightly different places. If you move the stove you also need to move the exhaust vent for the stove fan... it's going to create a "patch" on the roof unless you replace a whole panel. The appliances are mostly Atwood and designed for RV use. My wife wanted an upgrade to the standard stove top... mainly a better burner system and different grills.
I'll take a picture of the underside of the sink... I think you'll be amazed at what I've got going on under there.

That badge is "temporary"... he wants to be stealthy. The sound and the exhaust system is going to be a dead giveaway. I think it looks awfully good too so maybe he will change his mind and leave it there.

Chuck

cwbiii · 07-15-2015, 06:50 PM

Here is the underside of my sink. It's an extra large deep sink.
Under it I have plumbing, electrical, small AC unit, and furnace.
I hand built the "box" for the AC to manage the air getting in and out of the part that is normally outside. Took a little bit of ingenuity. I have 3 6" computer fans inside the box to help move air... the fan in the unit was not enough.
I used a thermal switch to control these fans so they turn on and off automatically as needed to help the unit get the heat out. It is a small unit and will not adequately cool the whole trailer in unfavorable conditions, but still does quite well most of the time... and I don't have anything up on the roof to interfere with my solar panels. My plan was to put 600W of panel on the roof to help power this 700W AC unit, but only 400W would fit. Still I can use the AC carefully even while boon-docking to take the edge off the heat of the day.

1) The underside.
2) The AC unit.
3) Constructing the enclosure.

cwbiii · 07-15-2015, 06:59 PM

Here is the underside of my sink. It's an extra large deep sink.
Under it I have plumbing, electrical, small AC unit, and furnace.
I hand built the "box" for the AC to manage the air getting in and out of the part that is normally outside. Took a little bit of ingenuity. I have 3 6" computer fans inside the box to help move air... the fan in the unit was not enough.
I used a thermal switch to control these fans so they turn on and off automatically as needed to help the unit get the heat out. It is a small unit and will not adequately cool the whole trailer in unfavorable conditions, but still does quite well most of the time... and I don't have anything up on the roof to interfere with my solar panels. My plan was to put 600W of panel on the roof to help power this 700W AC unit, but only 400W would fit. Still I can use the AC carefully even while boon-docking to take the edge off the heat of the day.

1) The underside.
2) The AC unit.

Chuck

cwbiii · 07-15-2015, 07:10 PM

I tried several times and it quit in the middle of the first 2... but one of them somehow got through.

cwbiii · 07-15-2015, 07:15 PM

You can see the next project in the background of that 3rd picture. Right now it is stored in a temporary enclosure to keep it dry as it leaks like a seive... it is also full of car parts.

Chuck

Slats · 07-20-2015, 06:02 PM

Got all the subfloor off and dropped front half of belly pan yesterday. Pulled out the black waste tank (which was white with "4/22/66" written in black magic marker on top). Will need some intensive tutoring on replacing the black tank and adding a grey tank. Any suggestions for how to narrow my search terms to find posts specific to this?

dbj216 · 07-22-2015, 05:51 PM

Hi Kansas City Slats,

Black and gray tank selection and configuration is a major project. The little black tank in our Trade Wind is totally inadequate in my view. Heck, it is only 3" deep at best. Way too shallow for effective draining of the tank. But a larger tank means moving the toilet, or rigging an above floor tank. I mounted a larger tank between the frame rails, but I had to move the toilet between the frame rails also. A gray water tank can go many places between the frame rails as drain inputs to the gray tank are inch and a half pipe.

I used Inca Plastics in California for my tanks. They have a huge on line catalog. I thumbed through the catalog until I found a tank that would fit my locations. The tanks have a molded in shoulder so I could hang the tanks from angle irons. The tanks are about 52" long, 17" wide, and have 4" above the shoulder, and 5" below the shoulder. Inca also sells these neat grommet fittings that allow easy connections of the toilet, drain lines, and vent lines.

The size of the tanks allowed me to route a below floor flex heat duct to the bathroom. The original Trade Wind had cold air return ducts under the subfloor. I elected to "reverse the air flow" and route heat from below, and cold air return above the floor. Running a heat duct to the bathroom would take away a lot of storage room under the bed. And we Minnesotans like warm bathrooms!

Inca served me will. Two 25 gallon tanks, 7 grommet connectors and shipping was about $600.

David

Slats · 08-02-2015, 09:05 PM

Thanks for the help. Ready to take to sandblaster and then welder. Got the axle bracket bolts loose after 3 consecutive weekends of squirting them with PB Blaster.

dbj216 · 08-03-2015, 04:21 PM

Old bolts are difficult to work with. Thank goodness for penetrating oil. It helps. I finally got my axle bolts loose, and then I found the rear one was trapped by the swing arm. I had to hack saw the head off to get it out. Always something with these old Airstreams.

You mentioned adding new black and gray tanks to your Trade Wind. The tanks I purchased from Inca Plastics required me to fabricate a "tank cover" to protect them, and to keep them warm. Some vintage Airstream enthusiasts don't like anything hanging below the frame rails. It does take away ground clearance. But I think I am okay with my new axles. I can run a string from the rear tire to ground contact point to the frame skid angles. The pan clears that straight line. So I will "hit the skids" before I hit the pan.

Soon you will have a clean, solid frame to work with. Then you get to paint the thing.

David

Slats · 08-03-2015, 08:38 PM

Thanks. How many inches lower than the belly pan do they sit?

cwbiii · 08-03-2015, 11:49 PM

I bought mine from Tank Depot, two 35 gal that I had to alter the frame to make them fit... not the easiest job but quite possible when you are doing a shell off restoration. My 24' unit has these, the rear unit (black) fits just between the rails. The gray tank is in front of this and it runs front to back and almost butts against the rear-rear axle There is a channel between the 2 that is about 10-12" wide for the drains to run to the sewer connection. I built enclosed and insulated boxes for the tanks to sit in and then I support the whole mess with a framework that allows me to access and drop the tanks if necessary. I recently tested everything and I appear to have a leak in the black tank when it is overfull. This is likely one of the 2 seals, toilet or vent. I plan to pull the toilet and RTV the seal before I put it back in. I will do the same to the black vent but it is harder to access. This should seal the tank from leaking.
The gray was perfect, I was able to fill the tub with no sign of leaks anywhere.

Nearing time for its maiden voyage... I just built my own fans to fit in the standard 1' vents. They came out pretty nice, I will post the 2nd unit I finish... as the first is already in. It has great airflow but the motor is a bit whiney... I'm going to look for a quieter motor as an upgrade. I used a PWM speed control and that works great. I can adjust it to run slower which is quieter and uses less energy. It turned out so great that I'm considering making a bunch of them and selling them for reasonable price.
Similar to a fantastic fan but much simpler to install since you don't have to cut out those neat old vents... it just slides inside with a minimum of alteration. The first unit was pretty labor intensive but I figured out a way to make the hardest part (the aluminum sheet metal that everything attaches to) a lot simpler with a small investment in a couple of dedicated power tools. That reduces the labor significantly and makes it possible to make these in reasonably small quantities (50-100) and still have it be a profitable venture. I figure that there is probably a total market for about a thousand of these so it has to remain a garage project to be viable. If I can identify a quieter motor then it will be perfect. I have an original unit in one of my vents to compare it to and it is quieter as a fan than the original and moves more air for the same energy cost (60-80w).

Chuck

dbj216 · 08-04-2015, 06:47 PM

My tank pan is 5" below the frame rails. The ground clearance is about the same as my 86 Limited.

I fitted the standard 22 degree starting angle with my new axles. I could have opted for a higher starting angle, and thus more ground clearance. But I rarely travel rugged campsites or steep angle entrance ramps to fuel stations.

I can now post a picture as uploading was off line for a couple of days.

Sounds like Chuck has a fantastic vent design.

David

timhortons · 08-05-2015, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cwbiii

I bought mine from Tank Depot, two 35 gal that I had to alter the frame to make them fit... not the easiest job but quite possible when you are doing a shell off restoration. My 24' unit has these, the rear unit (black) fits just between the rails. The gray tank is in front of this and it runs front to back and almost butts against the rear-rear axle There is a channel between the 2 that is about 10-12" wide for the drains to run to the sewer connection. I built enclosed and insulated boxes for the tanks to sit in and then I support the whole mess with a framework that allows me to access and drop the tanks if necessary. I recently tested everything and I appear to have a leak in the black tank when it is overfull. This is likely one of the 2 seals, toilet or vent. I plan to pull the toilet and RTV the seal before I put it back in. I will do the same to the black vent but it is harder to access. This should seal the tank from leaking.
The gray was perfect, I was able to fill the tub with no sign of leaks anywhere.

Nearing time for its maiden voyage... I just built my own fans to fit in the standard 1' vents. They came out pretty nice, I will post the 2nd unit I finish... as the first is already in. It has great airflow but the motor is a bit whiney... I'm going to look for a quieter motor as an upgrade. I used a PWM speed control and that works great. I can adjust it to run slower which is quieter and uses less energy. It turned out so great that I'm considering making a bunch of them and selling them for reasonable price.
Similar to a fantastic fan but much simpler to install since you don't have to cut out those neat old vents... it just slides inside with a minimum of alteration. The first unit was pretty labor intensive but I figured out a way to make the hardest part (the aluminum sheet metal that everything attaches to) a lot simpler with a small investment in a couple of dedicated power tools. That reduces the labor significantly and makes it possible to make these in reasonably small quantities (50-100) and still have it be a profitable venture. I figure that there is probably a total market for about a thousand of these so it has to remain a garage project to be viable. If I can identify a quieter motor then it will be perfect. I have an original unit in one of my vents to compare it to and it is quieter as a fan than the original and moves more air for the same energy cost (60-80w).

Chuck

are there weight issues on 70G of tanks ?

Slats · 08-06-2015, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbj216

My tank pan is 5" below the frame rails.
David

So David, which frame rails? Here are some pics, the first for the fun of it, because the shell looks like it is floating. The second, the frame, is for you to pinpoint for me where the tanks go, if you would be so kind.

cwbiii · 08-06-2015, 09:54 PM

It adds a bit of weight, but I've had both tanks full with no propane tanks mounted on the front or water in the fresh water tank and it still has more hitch weight than I can lift. 70 gal is about 500 lbs if both are full. I used heavy duty axles (3500 lbs ea) when I replaced them, the originals were rated at 2500 lbs. The tanks are mounted relatively close to the axles and I beefed up the frame to carry the load so I don't expect any problems to occur... but Murphy likes to stick his fingers into things... so time will tell if I've done this right.

100 gal (700 lb) is the full water load possible with all 3 tanks full... not a likely scenario... at least for on the road.

If I remember correctly the trailer weighed in at about 3800 lb (empty) in stock configuration... and up to 5000 lbs loaded. I now expect to weigh in at about 4000 lbs (empty) and max out at 7000. The weight distribution is still pretty good. I will weigh it under each tire separately to make sure the weight is relatively evenly distributed in the dry configuration.
Wet weight is "centered" between the frame rails for all 3 tanks and the weight is a low as it can get for stability. The fresh water tank is 100% above the floor, the other 2 are 100% below the floor. I will also carry a 6 gal plastic jerry jug in the tub for fresh water reserve and manual refill.

I'm still searching for a quieter motor for the fans... the whine the ones I bought is a bit annoying even at low speeds. Its mostly motor noise, I took the fan blade off and ran the motor without it just to check. I will find an acceptable solution... I have inquiries with several motor manufacturers to see if they make a quiet version of this specific motor. Otherwise I may have to choose a different fan assembly or pick individual parts to build the fan assemblies from. Its a solvable problem. I'm trying to apply the KISS principle for the present.

I was off the air for a couple of days... lightning whacked us and took out my fios modem and a couple of network asset power supplies. We just got back up an hr or so ago.

Chuck

cwbiii · 08-07-2015, 08:35 PM

My rear tank just fit transverse between the last 2 cross bars. The one in front of that was longitudinal and I cut the lower part of the 2 crossbars in front of the axle and welded in a dropped box frame for the second tank. This put the original toilet position directly above the rear tank and the tub above the other tank. Perfect for the original plumbing with just a slight bit of modification.
The gray tank inlet and vent are both under the tub. The black tank vent is under the sink in the corner. I welded 3/16" steel sheet metal with a lip in it to the original frame to create a lowered area to cover these tanks and drainage.
I can still slide sheet metal similar to the original from the back into the lip to seal up this part of the underbelly. I will take a picture of them from the back tomorrow and post it. The tanks will not be visible since I put them inside a separate sheet metal box with insulation to help extend the season here in New England. These boxes hang from the box frame(s) I welded in.
I don't remember exactly how much down I extended the frame... and it tapers slightly up in the back to provide exit and entry clearance. The heavy duty axles added about an inch and a half clearance over the old axles plus I pushed the axles slightly together and those clamping wheel chocks now will work where before they would not. I have enough clearance to slide around on a creeper under the trailer when it is on the hitch. When level it is a bit tight under the back. If I lower the front a bit though I'm fine. I'm thinking of welding on a pair of industrial duty steel wheels on the bumper just to make sure I won't scrape bottom on a really steep entry dip...but I will wait and see how close it gets first during the trial period.

Chuck