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Old 04-04-2008, 05:58 PM   #21
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Floor/Frame Question

From your photos it appears the body is attached to the frame and not ON TOP of the floor like Airstreams from the 50's...is that true? I have a chance to pick up a 72 Tradewind real cheap but I'm afraid of the floor issue but if I don't have to take the body off I'm think I'm gonna scoop it up.
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Old 04-05-2008, 06:01 AM   #22
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structure strength

Hey Vernon
I love the job and level of dedication on your restoration project. I was reading over the thread and saw something that concerned me in two areas.
I borrowed one of your pictures (showen below) so it would be easy to follow what I was talking about. I hope you do not mind?
I have always been amazed with all the design thought that has gone into Airstreams. What I learned on replacing an end cap was one of those times I was amazed.


Once I had the old End Cap off and was walking around on the exposed floor it was like walking on a very large diving board. That frame was very agile. I later learned that there is strength in the body (fuselage). The idea the rib followed from the side of the trailer, over the top, down the other side, and attached to an outrigger which was in line with the cross member and in line with another outrigger was no mistake. The idea that poped in my mind then, it was like the rib cage of a large whale. The frame and body are a total package.

Here is your picture and a darn good illustration of the rib structure strength.

Those outriggers follow the whole length of the body on the side.
And if I may be so bold, if the same structure strength were incorporated in the rear I think Rear End Sag would not exist. See picture below.

1)The thing that concerns me is not having a strong and solid outrigger at the rib of the body. I wonder if there would be a lose of strength and over time and crinkle the body just above the floor. The wood, body, and frame are a total package.
Here is a picture of the side of a unit that the floor was rotten and gave way. The side of the trailer crinkled.


And here is a picture of what is called Rear End Sag.
This is where the fuselage stays put, the floor rots, and the frame drops down. This is more evidence the wood, body/fuselage, and frame are a total package.


I don't think that not having one outrigger in the right place would give you any real problems but I would not do more than that.

2)The other thing that concerns me is, the weight of your home made outriggers. The outriggers that come from Airstream weight a little less than 3 lbs. Yours look like they could be more. Once again, using one or two should not be a problem, but more than that, combined with other weight additions as time goes on may be a problem.

I felt compelled to share my ideas, as I would hate for you to put all this work into your unit and have a problem later on.

I have worked on some of these Airstream trailers and when the customer came to pick it up, I felt part of me was going home with the customer. It is like part of my soul is going with them. I bet that if you ever part with this baby you will know what I am talking about. I guess that is why the Airstream community never part with their baby when they have put so much into them. They buy another baby.
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Old 04-05-2008, 07:00 AM   #23
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The picture in post #22 is a little hard to see. I croped it. and also wanted to say.
I guess they also moved the outrigger off the frame cross member to support the water heater. It may be that with no rib support there for the body, that it was better in the center of the water heater. Water is heavy. I do like the way you have the extra outrigger at the side of the water heater opening, as it was a concern you had in your earlier comments.
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Old 04-05-2008, 07:13 AM   #24
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Dan,

Thank you so much for sharing this professional information. This site is sooo helpful! I love having extra sets of eyes watching my backside.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan4odm
That frame was very agile. I later learned that there is strength in the body (fuselage). The idea the rib followed from the side of the trailer, over the top, down the other side, and attached to an outrigger which was in line with the cross member and in line with another outrigger was no mistake. The idea that poped in my mind then, it was like the rib cage of a large whale. The frame and body are a total package.

Here is your picture and a darn good illustration of the rib structure strength.

Those outriggers follow the whole length of the body on the side.
And if I may be so bold, if the same structure strength were incorporated in the rear I think Rear End Sag would not exist. See picture below.

1)The thing that concerns me is not having a strong and solid outrigger at the rib of the body. I wonder if there would be a lose of strength and over time and crinkle the body just above the floor. The wood, body, and frame are a total package.


I don't think that not having one outrigger in the right place would give you any real problems but I would not do more than that..
Not having a solid outrigger at the rib also concerns me. If you notice the last outrigger installed aft by AS is in the middle of the water heater opening so it gives or gets no suppport from the shell except for the floor. The next rib forward that is in line with the rib is still in good shape except for the bottom lip which holds the belly skin. I am putting that new one in there just to have a good attachment for the belly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan4odm
2)The other thing that concerns me is, the weight of your home made outriggers. The outriggers that come from Airstream weight a little less than 3 lbs. Yours look like they could be more. Once again, using one or two should not be a problem, but more than that, combined with other weight additions as time goes on may be a problem.
I have not welded the new outriggers in so I removed one to weigh. I weighed it on my retail nail scale and it weighs 3 lbs. 4 oz.

Another problem that I have noticed with the rear construction is that there is no real seal between the rear skin and the bumper compartment. It seams that any water ponding on the lid of this compartment will eventually seep under the skin and into the floor edges. I am going to attempt to build some sort of flashing to run under the skin and back to the hinge of the lid. The rounded corners will present a problem however.

Thanks again for your advice. Keep it coming!
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Old 04-05-2008, 08:29 AM   #25
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preventing rear end sag

I would agree that it is a good idea to do something that keeps the water out.
We have customers come in all the time and we suggest they seal with TremPro Polyurethane Sealant . This is the stuff that Airstream are sealed with from the inside. This sealer use to be called Vulkem and takes a while to dry. Once it drys it has an almost elastic type property that adheres VERY WELL. If you have ever had to cut this stuff away from a lock or a panel you would know what I mean.
If applied carefully it would seal very well and almost hardly be seen. Being that you are putting it all together from this point, it may be that it could be done and not be seen at all.

Some people who want a inexpensive fix use it even though it can be seen. It is gray in color, does not stand out, and is better than letting the frame drop down.
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Old 04-09-2008, 01:02 PM   #26
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Update

Well I got my two additional outriggers welded in and was ready to POR-15 the rear frame. I needed to remove my 3/4" spacer blocks from under my c-channels to do this. I was worried about leaving the shell hanging so I decided to use my hydraulic jack and a 4x4 on the supported rear frame to lend a hand. I only applied enough pressure to support the shell.
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Then I was able to get to everything to paint it. I am only doing the rear section now. I am anxious to get that "first" sheet of MG Plywood down and the rear shell secured then I can progress more toward the front.

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In my off time (waiting on the welder) I decided to try the Aluminum Jelly on the corrosion. I am thinking that if I could remove most of it and prime it that maybe I would not have to remove all the outer skins. If at a later date I found the corrosion showing up on the exterior wouldn't it be just as easy to replace that portion of the skin then?

Here is before...

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And after application of the Aluminum Jelly....

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I may try another application to see if more of it can be removed.

Vernon
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Old 04-11-2008, 02:52 PM   #27
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I got the first sheet back down!

Well it feels like I turned a corner today! I still have five more sheets to do but I would have to think that the first sheet (rear) with all the plumbing would have to be the hardest. I cut the holes for the plumbing in my 1/2" test sheet first and set my holding tank in its cradle to make sure that it would fit.

I then laid my insulation on top of my frame.

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I put a slight bevel on the outside edges of my plywood with my belt sander then sealed them with 3 coats of MinWax Wood Hardener
Minwax® High Performance Wood Hardener - Wood Maintenance & Repair - Minwax.com
According to MinWax it is designed to "strengthen and reinforce decayed or rotting wood" so I thought it might do the same for new wood.

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Then with a little help from one of my employees I was able to slide it in.

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My insulation moved a little but I think I can straighten it out from underneath. I still have to cut my holes for the closet flange, vent pipe, and hot air duct but I can do that from inside. I already have them marked.

It sure feels good to do something constructive for a change!
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Old 04-16-2008, 10:34 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vhord
In my off time (waiting on the welder) I decided to try the Aluminum Jelly on the corrosion. I am thinking that if I could remove most of it and prime it that maybe I would not have to remove all the outer skins. If at a later date I found the corrosion showing up on the exterior wouldn't it be just as easy to replace that portion of the skin then?

Vernon
Vernon, I have similiar corrosion on the interior near the bottom of the center back panel and I have no idea whether to repair or replace the panel. The corrosion isn't visible from the exterior...yet. I suspect that the rusted steel angle that I removed that ties the flooring to the channel in this area may be the culprit. So I am interested in the Aluminum Jelly you used. Could you describe Aluminum Jelly? Is it available in hardware stores?
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Old 04-18-2008, 07:04 PM   #29
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Aluminum Jelly

The aluminum jelly is available at some hardware stores. However, I have an Ace Hardware store and they do not stock it. I purchase it from another supplier, Handy Hardware Wholesale, which is headquartered in Houston. I know they have several stores in the San Antonio area that purchase from them. The Handy stock number is 456220 . The participating stores only have to order one (not a full case). If you cannot get anyone to order it for you just PM me and I will be glad to help you or anyone else.
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Old 05-02-2008, 09:36 AM   #30
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Update

I have not been moving too rapidly on my floor replacement because I decided to wait on my axles before reinstalling any more subflooring. They are scheduled to be shipped today and I have new tires (ST225/75R15 8 ply)and wheels ready to put on. I do however have most of the frame painted with two coats of POR-15. I am thinking that the axle replacement might be a little easier with the floor out.

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Meanwhile I have tried to accomplish something constructive everyday even if it means getting a little ahead of the plan. I reworked my furnace plenum, replaced the motor in the vent hood for the cooktop and painted it so it is ready if I ever get to that point. I have repaired (fiberglass patch) my bathroom counter where the PO had cut out for a house toilet and we have refinished all of that.

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Another project that I plan to tackle after getting my subfloor back in is the replace the lower front exterior skins. I noticed that they seem to have a slight compound curve which you can see in this picture.

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Kip (Aerowood) said that he replaced both of his with flat sheets and removed and will replace the vertical rib with a straight one. That makes a lot so sense.

That's about it so far. I will update when I have more news.
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Old 05-02-2008, 09:57 AM   #31
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Thanks for the update Vernon, I've been wanting to see your progress. All things considered you are still moving on along quite well.


So, will it be ready for your hunting lease in time??

-Marcus
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Old 05-04-2008, 04:23 PM   #32
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So, will it be ready for your hunting lease in time??

-Marcus
I hope so. My wife is even hoping we have enough completed by the end of June to take tin can tent on our annual New Braunsfels trip. I think that may be wishful thinking. We have a fairly new pop-up we normally take and will probally use it again this year.
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Old 05-04-2008, 07:11 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vhord

Kip (Aerowood) said that he replaced both of his with flat sheets and removed and will replace the vertical rib with a straight one. That makes a lot so sense.
That would be the rib on the outboard side of the wing windows. Mine didn't have any rivets through the exterior skin at this location
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Old 05-04-2008, 09:04 PM   #34
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Vernon, how long does it take to get axles after you order? Nice work on the bathroom counter.
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Old 05-05-2008, 09:31 AM   #35
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That would be the rib on the outboard side of the wing windows. Mine didn't have any rivets through the exterior skin at this location
Thanks for clarifying that for everyone. Mine does not have rivets on that one either.
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Old 05-05-2008, 09:36 AM   #36
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Vernon, how long does it take to get axles after you order? Nice work on the bathroom counter.
Thanks. I mailed Inland a check on April Fools Day and they received it on April 4. According to the invoice the axles were due to ship May 2nd although I have not gotten confirmation on that. They sent me the shocks, bolts, etc. a couple of weeks ago. BTW - I mailed a check because I was not in that big of a rush and didn't want to put them on a card.
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Old 05-06-2008, 10:50 AM   #37
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FYI - Andy just emailed me to let me know that my axles shipped from Jackson Center today.

Also, my new 15K Carrier LP A/C just arrived today. If the weather clears (rain, rain, rain) I won't have too many excusses for not getting something done! (Except maybe work)
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Old 05-14-2008, 04:39 PM   #38
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Vernon, did you order bare axles or axles with drum or disc brakes? I'm considering which way to go? Did you get em yet?
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Old 05-14-2008, 04:57 PM   #39
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Vernon, did you order bare axles or axles with drum or disc brakes? I'm considering which way to go? Did you get em yet?
Todd,

I ordered the axles complete with drum brakes and shocks. They shipped on 5/6 from Ohio and I got them on 5/8 by FedEx Freight. I was very surprised that they made it here that fast. If the rain stops I am hoping to install them this weekend. I removed the old shocks last week (frame end that is) and loosened then re-snugged all the bolts so I should be good to go. Before that I had been soaking the bolts with "loosey goosey". They loosened pretty easily.
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Old 05-17-2008, 06:34 PM   #40
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New axles installed!

I feel like I turned another corner today.

I lowered the old axles out yesterday. I was surprised at how tight they fitted against the frame. I had to pry them down. This morning we prepped the frame, applied POR, and top coated the frame where the old axles were attached.

This afternoon was when I had picked to install the new ones. I had arranged a friend to come help but I was very fortunate that a couple of others showed up just in the nick of time. Those axles are very heavy. Packing list states 230# ea

Anyway we installed them in about 30 minutes (old axles were out already). I did not have my subfloor or belly pan in. I really have to admire those of you who have changed them out from underneath without having the benefit of the access from inside.

Using measurements before and after I was able to determine that it raised my tongue height a little over 4" at level. 1" or so of that was from changing the tire size from the 205 tires the PO had put on the the ST225 that should have been there already.

I took a few pictures and may post them later. Right now I am going to eat my dinner!
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