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-   -   4 barrel carburetor (http://www.airforums.com/forums/f159/4-barrel-carburetor-36863.html)

jagcb750 10-14-2007 08:29 PM

4 barrel carburetor
 
While I was coming back from a camping trip, I noticed that my 4 barrel would not kick in as I was climbing a mountain. I had the gas pedal stomped down all the way, but nothing. I have never worked on a 4 barrel carb before, so I don't know about them. Does this thing have linkage that might be disconnected, or maybe a vacuum hose? What are some possibilities that may be causing the 4 barrel not to work?

str8strm 10-14-2007 10:23 PM

Is it the carb, or is your transmission not dropping down a gear?

markdoane 10-14-2007 10:27 PM

. . . and check the distributor also, maybe the spark advance is bound up.

ROBERTSUNRUS 10-14-2007 11:49 PM

:) Hi, I have some possibilties for your four barrel concern. If you have a carburetor with vacuum secondaries and you have the gas pedal on the floor, you virtually don't have any vacuum to open them. At a slow engine RPM with a heavy load [going up hill] you would just bogg down with that much carburetor opened up. If you have a mechanical four barrel carburetor, they have an upper butterfly similar to a choke that will stay closed if there isn't enough vacuum to pull them open. And finally, most four barrels have a choke block that won't allow the secondaries to open when cold. And a choke problem [adjustment] can cause this to happen when the engine is warm.

Good Luck.

volvophile 10-15-2007 01:49 AM

In the Chevy vintage I'm used to, 70s to early 80's, theres a mechanical linkage to open the 2nd valves, and a kick down cable that goes down to the tranny to drop a gear when the pedal is on the floor.
That way you get sizable increas in throttle and a lower gear for accellerating and passing.

If the tranny is kicking down but the 2ndary barrels are not opening, then you should still notice it downshift with rise in your engine RPMs and modest acceleration.

If the tranny is not kicking down, but the 2ndary barrels are opening, then you might get modest acelleration, probably not much change in the RPMs, but you might see the gas guage visibilly move :lol:

If you take the air cleaner off when the engine is warm, you should see the top butterfies open (choke is off). Have someone step on the pedal and you should first see the butterflies on the small bores open, then the valves on the big bores open when its all the way down.
you can do this with the engine off if it has a mechanical linkage, if its vacuum actuated then you need the engine on.
Make sure you dont have any loose hair/clothing when looking down the carb. Those 454s will suck the eyeballs out of a parrot.

Similarly, you should be able to find a cable that attatches to the throttle linkage somewheres, and trace it down to the tranny. I think theres a linkage with a little lever on the side of the tranny. You should see that move on the last 3/4" or so of travel on the gas pedal.
(dont hold me to that last part, its been almost 15 years since I had a chevy)

richinny 10-15-2007 09:57 AM

on rare instances, the base gasket can catch the secondary plate and keep it from opening. i wouldn't look down a running carb without safety glasses and covering my hair with something that won't burn ;-)

345bill 10-15-2007 11:55 AM

i would consider all above responses but make sure that parrot has a helmet and glasses on.

markdoane 10-15-2007 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 345bill
i would consider all above responses but make sure that parrot has a helmet and glasses on.

The parrot also needs a safety harness and a Confined Space Entry Permit.

scottanlily 10-15-2007 12:28 PM

hello jaG,

Your carburetor should be a GM Rochester quadrajet if its the original unit .
It has mechanical secondaries (throttle plates) that is when you floor the gas
pedal all the way down ,a linkage arm on the rear side of the carb pushes the secondary plates open ,allowing the top butterfly plate to draw open allowing the secondary fuel metering rods to raise up allowing fuel to flow.You can remove your aircleaner ,with engine NOT running and after you have fully warmed up the engine ,idling for 15 minutes or so should be fine ,look at the carb .you can see the rear (large) butterfly plate is closed (normal) push down on your gas pedal slowly and look at the movement of the linkage
on the carb .You can easily see the action of the linkage , The secondary
butterfly may pull open just a little ,you can reach down and push it open
with your finger all the way ,with the gas all the way to the floor ,witha flashlight look down into the secondary part of the carb .you then will see
two large throttle plates opened up ,while looking into it move the gas pedal
up and down some ,you can see the plates moving open and closed .Now
all that said ,sometimes the choke lockout lever is stuck and the secondaries do not open ,so your front (primary choke plate or front (little) butterfly will
be fully open (hot engine) ,if your carb is gummed up that little lever
may be gummed as well .You can use carb cleaner spray to clean around the
carb ,the linkage areas all around it ,Now this procedure of cleaning is better on a cool engine so give it an hour or so to cool down before cleaning .So if do not see the secondaries open ,make certian the front butterfly is fully opened up ,if it does not fully open the secondaries will be locked out by
the little lever down low on the passenger side of the carb.right nearest the mainfold in the center of carb .The secondary butterfly is lightly spring loaded ,so when you open it it will shut back after you release it .Normal
operation for this carb as the secondaries butterfly is opened by airflow demand only .Or when the engine needs more fuel the secondaries are air flow demanded open, then fuel then flows in .If your choke (front butterfly)
is not fully opend up hot ,then your choke is faulty ,the round plastic part
passenger side of carb towards the front it is retained most likely by rivits
to hold the setting from the factory ,anti tamper . You may want to take your coach in to have the carb serviced if your not mechanically savvy on
carbs ,they can be a pain in the butt . hope this can at least help you to know whats going on with your secondaries .you can get a great book at book stores ROCHESTER CARBURETORS its very insightful and helpful .
Kragen or auto zone may have it possibly as well .Now ,you may have
a different carb on there that is not original ,as the GM qaudrajet is the
the only carb that would be factory .Post a photo if what I described is not
what you have on there .If it is a Holley 4 barrel ,the your vacuum secondary
throttle plate diaphram probably is bad .Im running a holley 4 barrel on my
392 IH v-8 .The diaphram went bad ,no secondary action .Secondary diaphram carbs do indeed open under full throttle conditions ,they have to
you . The vacuum signal to the secondary diaphram is routed thru the carb
passages to keep the vacuum signal high to pull on the diaphram .Even at full
throttle you have enough engine vacuum to properly operate the carb .
its designed into the carburetor .

Good luck

Scott of scottanlily

safari57 10-15-2007 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richinny
on rare instances, the base gasket can catch the secondary plate and keep it from opening. i wouldn't look down a running carb without safety glasses and covering my hair with something that won't burn ;-)

Hey, Ricky, who has hair? An interesting concept:huh:

Barry

jagcb750 10-15-2007 06:45 PM

Thanks for all the great info. I am supposed to have a friend come over in the next couple of days to help me with this. I will let him read over all this great info before we get started. Oh, the transmission is not dropping down a gear or anything. When I stomp down the pedal nothing happens period.

safari57 10-15-2007 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jagcb750
Thanks for all the great info. I am supposed to have a friend come over in the next couple of days to help me with this. I will let him read over all this great info before we get started. Oh, the transmission is not dropping down a gear or anything. When I stomp down the pedal nothing happens period.

I may have missed this if you said already, but did you notice any difference in your gas mileage? Did it drop noticeably?

Barry

jagcb750 10-16-2007 09:04 AM

@safari57: Well, I was going up a steep mountain In eastern Tennessee so I figured my gas mileage was going to be noticeably worse just from this. I never has gotten better than 5 miles per gallon thus far anyways.

bkahler 10-16-2007 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jagcb750
@safari57: Well, I was going up a steep mountain In eastern Tennessee so I figured my gas mileage was going to be noticeably worse just from this. I never has gotten better than 5 miles per gallon thus far anyways.

Ouch :eek:

On our trip to Pennsylvania from Arkansas and back we averaged between 7 & 8 mpg and that includes towing a 2900 lb trailer. This was through the mountains in Maryland on I-68 and West Virginia on I-79. Our 310 has a new generation 6 454 with the Banks Power Pack and 13,000 miles on it.

Guess we don't have a lot to complain about if you're only getting 5 mpg :D.

guy99 10-16-2007 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkahler
Ouch :eek:

... Our 310 has a new generation 6 454 with the Banks Power Pack and 13,000 miles on it.
...
:D.

What is a "new generation 6 454"?

Our 310 also has the Banks Power Pack and gets 8+mpg when not towing and 7-8 mpg when towing our (2500 Pound) Scion XB.

bkahler 10-16-2007 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guy99
What is a "new generation 6 454"?

Our 310 also has the Banks Power Pack and gets 8+mpg when not towing and 7-8 mpg when towing our (2500 Pound) Scion XB.

Guy,

I found the following description that explains about the different generations of the chevy big block.

Here is the link where I found it: eBay Guides - Big Block Chevy Generations --A primer

Ebay of all places. Hope this helps.

Brad

-----------------
This guide is intended to help you sort out the more major differences among Big Block Chevrolet engines produced since 1958. Chevrolet has designed and produced several different "big block" engine families. Within each family, there can be evolutionary changes, and special parts designed for competition use which may not be directly interchangeable with the regular production items. I don't intend to cover every possible variation. For practical purposes, all big block Chevrolet engines use a cylinder bore spacing of 4.84 inches although note the one exception below.

Early engines were designated as Mark I, (Mk I) Mk II, Mk III, and Mk IV. Later engines continued the numbering system as Generation 5 (Gen 5), Gen 6, Gen 7. There are some conflicting theories as to the reason for the change from "Mark" to "Generation". My first guess: "Gen 5" sounds much more modern, hi-tech, and trendy than "Mk V".

Mark I: The original "Big Block Chevy", also called the "W" engine perhaps because of the layout of the valves and therefore the shape of the valve covers--although another possibility is that GM chose the "W" prototype for production rather than the competing "X" or "Y" prototypes, and therefore it's a convenient coincidence that the valve layout is in the shape of a "W". It should be noted that this engine became "Mark I" only after the Mark II was being designed years after the "W" was introduced. Whatever the origin of the name, this engine family was installed in vehicles beginning in 1958, as a 348. In 1961, it went to 409 cubic inches, (as immortalized in the Beach Boys song "She's so fine, my 409") and for one year only (1963) a few well-connected racers could buy a car with a 427 cubic inch version called the Z-11. The 427 version was all about performance, and had special parts which were not directly interchangeable with the 348/409. While production of the 427 was severely limited, both the 348 and 409 were offered in passenger cars and light- and medium-duty trucks. The truck blocks were somewhat different from the passenger car blocks, having slightly different water jackets and of course, lower compression achieved by changes in the piston in addition to more machining of the top of the cylinder. A novel feature of this engine is that the top of the cylinders are not machined at a 90 degree angle to the bore centerline. The top of the cylinder block is machined at a 16 degree angle, and the cylinder head has almost no "combustion chamber" cast into it. The combustion chamber is the top wedge-shaped section of the cylinder. Ford also introduced an engine family like that in '58--the Mercury/Edsel/Lincoln "MEL" 383/410/430/462. The "W" engine ended it's automotive production life part way through the 1965 model year, when the 409 Mk I was superseded by the 396 Mk IV engine.

Mark II: This is more of a prototype than a production engine. It is the 1963-only "Mystery Engine" several of which ran the Daytona 500 race, and in fact won the 100-mile qualifier setting a new record. It is largely the result of engineering work by Dick Keinath. Produced mainly as a 427 but with a few 396 and 409 cubic inch versions, all in VERY limited numbers. Even though it was intended as a NASCAR-capable engine, it had 2-bolt main caps. This engine was never installed in a production-line vehicle by GM, it only went to racers. And even though it was available in 1963, it has very little resemblance to the 427 Mark I "W" engine of the same year. The Mark II was a "breakthrough" design using intake and exhaust valves that are tilted in two planes--a canted-valve cylinder head, nicknamed the "Semi-Hemi" or "Porcupine" because it is "almost" a hemi head, and the valve stems stick out of the head casting at seemingly random angles. The engine was the subject of an extensive article in the May, 1963 Hot Rod Magazine. Because of NASCAR politics, Chevrolet was forced to sell two 427 Mark II engines to Ford after the '63 Daytona race, (to "prove" that it was a production engine, and therefore eligible to race in NASCAR events) and so this engine is not only the grandfather of the Mark IV and later big block Chevies, it's also the grandfather of the canted-valve Ford engines: Boss 302, 351 Cleveland and variants, and the 429/460 big block Ford. The bore and stroke of the 427 MK II is not the same as the 427 MK IV.

Mark III: Never released for production. This was rumored to be the result of GM/Chevrolet's proposed buyout of the tooling and rights to the Packard V-8 engine of the mid-to-late '50's. The Packard engine was truly huge, having 5" bore centers. The former president of Packard wound up at Ford after Packard folded, perhaps because of that, Ford was also interested in this engine. Ford wanted to make a V-12 variant from it just as Packard had once envisioned. One way or another, neither GM nor Ford actually went forward with the purchase.

Mark IV: The engine that most people think of as the "big block Chevy". Released partway into the 1965 model year as a 396, superseding the older 409. It is a development of the Mark II and using similar but not identical canted valve (semi-hemi/porcupine) cylinder heads. It was later expanded to 402 (often still labeled as a 396, or even a 400,) a 427, a 454, and a few "special" engines were produced in the late '60's for offshore boat racing as a 482. There was a 366 and a 427 version that each had a .400 taller deck height to accommodate .400 taller pistons using four rings instead of the more usual three rings. These tall-deck engines were used only in medium-duty trucks (NOT in pickup trucks--think in terms of big farm trucks, garbage trucks, dump trucks, school busses, etc.) The tall-deck blocks all had 4-bolt main caps, forged crankshafts, and the strongest of the 3/8 bolt connecting rods. All-out performance engines used 7/16 bolt connecting rods, along with other changes. This engine family was discontinued in 1990, with the Gen 5 appearing in 1991.

Gen 5: General Motors made substantial revisions to the Mark IV engine, and the result was christened "Gen 5" when it was released for the 1991 model year as a 454. There were 502 cu. in. versions, but never installed in a production vehicle, the 502s were over-the-parts-counter only. Changes to the Gen 5 as compared to the Mk IV included, but are not limited to: rear main seal (and therefore the crankshaft and block) were changed to accept a one-piece seal, oiling passages were moved, the mechanical fuel pump provisions were removed from the block casting, the machined boss for a clutch bracket was eliminated, the cylinder heads lost the ability to adjust the valve lash, and the coolant passages at the top of the cylinder block were revised. The changes to the coolant passage openings meant that installing Mk IV cylinder heads on a Gen 5 block could result in coolant seepage into the lifter valley. Frankly, the changes (except for the one-piece rear main seal) were all easily recognized as cost-cutting measures which also removed some quality and/or utility. All told, the Gen 5 engine was not well regarded by the Chevy enthusiasts because of the changes to the coolant passages and the lack of an adjustable valvetrain. As always, the aftermarket has provided reasonable fixes for the problems. The Gen 5 lasted only until 1995.

Gen 6: GM recognized that it did not make any friends when it designed the Gen 5, and so they chose to revise the coolant passages again when designing the Gen 6, allowing the older heads to be used without coolant seepage problems. The boss for the clutch bracket returned, but was generally not drilled and tapped. The non-adjustable valvetrain remained, as did the one-piece rear main seal. Some but not all Gen 6 454 (and not 502) blocks regained a mechanical fuel pump provision. Production engines installed in pickup trucks got a high-efficiency cylinder head, still canted-valve, but with a modern heart-shaped combustion chamber of about 100cc. The intake port has a "ski jump" cast into it to promote swirling of the intake air flow. All production vehicles with a Gen 6 used a 454 version, but over-the-counter 502s are available. The Gen 6 is sometimes referred to as the "Gen Fix" because it fixed a number of issues that disappointed enthusiasts when the Gen 5 was released. As an added bonus, most if not all Gen 6 engines use hydraulic roller lifters.

Gen 7: A very major revision of the previous engines resulted in the 8.1 liter/ 8100/ 496 cubic inch Gen 7 in 2001. The block gained .400 in deck height so it is the same height as the previous "Tall Deck" truck blocks, wider oil pan rails, and the cylinder heads have symmetrical port layouts instead of the previous 4 long/4 short port layout. Very little interchanges between the 8.1 liter engine and the previous Mark IV/Gen 5/Gen 6 engines. The head bolt pattern and even the firing order of the cylinders has been changed. There are some things that remained true to the previous Mk IV/Gen 5/Gen 6--the bellhousing bolt pattern, the side motor mount bolt pattern, the flywheel bolt pattern, and the exhaust manifold bolt pattern are the same. Note that the bolt holes are threaded for metric fasteners. The 8.1 is internally balanced, so you could install a flywheel/flexplate from a 396/427 Mk IV provided you use the correct bolts to suit the 8.1 crankshaft.

Specifications:
(sorry if this table loses it's formatting: I don't know how to fix it. It looks "ok" at full screen width on my computer)

Engine family Displacement Bore Stroke Rod length

MK I 348 4.125 3.25 6.135

MK I 409 4.31 3.5 6.010

MK I 427 4.31 3.65 6.135

MK II 427 4.31 3.65 6.135

MK IV 366 3.938 3.76 6.135 (Only offered as a medium duty truck engine)

MK IV 396 4.094 3.76 6.135

MK IV 402 4.125 3.76 6.135

MK IV 427 4.250 3.76 6.135 (Offered in passenger car and medium duty truck versions)

MK IV/Gen 5/6 454 4.250 4.0 6.135

MK IV 482 4.250 4.25 6.405 (very rare, made only for offshore boat races. Used tall-deck block)

Gen 5/6 502 4.466 4.0 6.135 (Over the parts-counter only; not installed in production vehicles)

Gen 7 496/8.1 4.25 4.37

Specials: GM has sold many special-purpose engines, partial engines, blocks, cylinder heads, etc., "over the parts counter" that were never installed in production line vehicles. It is very difficult to track all the various items--suffice to say that heavy-duty "Bowtie" blocks and cylinder heads in various configurations--Mark IV, Gen 5, etc, have been produced. Oldsmobile used the Big Block Chevy as a baseline when designing the first of the Drag Race Competition Engines (DRCE) so that the early DRCE engines have an Olds Rocket emblem cast into the block, but it's Chevy parts that fit inside. There are special high performance blocks and heads, in either iron or aluminum, produced by GM and by aftermarket suppliers to suit almost any racing need.

Coolant Routing Mk IV/Gen 5/Gen 6
There are two different ways that coolant can be routed through the engine: series flow and parallel flow. Both ways work just fine. There may be a slight preference for parallel flow, but it is not a big deal. Series flow has the water exiting the water pump, flowing through the block to the rear, it then transfers through the head gasket and into the cylinder head through two large passages on each cylinder bank at the rear of the block. The coolant then travels from the rear of the head, forward to the front of the head, into the intake manifold water passage and out past the thermostat and thermostat housing. The water cools the block first, then it cools the head. The coldest water (coming out of the water pump) is directly below the hottest water (having already picked up the heat of the block and the head) as the hot water transfers into the intake manifold. By contrast, parallel flow has the water exiting from the water pump into the block, where a portion "geysers" up into the head between the first and second cylinder, another portion "geysers" up to the head between the second and third cylinders, another portion geysers up to the head between the third and fourth cylinder, and the remainder transfers to the head at the rear of the block. The coolant temperature inside the engine is more even that way. The differences in coolant routing is having (or not having) the three additional coolant transfer holes in each block deck, and three matching holes in the head gasket. The heads have passages for either system, and are not different based on coolant flow.

Be aware that gaskets that DO have the three extra holes between the cylinders often have restricted coolant flow at the rear--instead of having two large coolant transfer holes at the rear, there is only one, and it's the smaller of the two holes that remains. This is important because if you use a parallel flow head gasket on a series flow block, you can have massive overheating and there's NOTHING that will cure the problem except to replace the head gaskets with ones that don't restrict flow at the rear of the block, or to drill the block decks to allow the coolant to flow into the head between the cylinders. Here's why they can overheat: A series-flow block doesn't have the openings between the cylinders, no coolant can flow up to the head there. The gasket may only have the single, smaller opening at the rear, so the amount of water that gets through that opening is greatly reduced from what the block designers intended. The result is that the coolant flow through the engine is only a fraction of what is needed.

Most, but NOT all Mk IV engines are Series Flow. ALL Gen 5 and Gen 6 engines are Parallel Flow. A series flow block can be converted to parallel flow by drilling 3 holes in each deck surface, and then use parallel flow head gaskets. You can use the parallel flow gaskets as templates for locating the additional holes. It's really easy: Put the parallel flow gaskets on the block, mark the location and size of the three extra holes. Remove the gasket. Grab a 1/2" drill and a drill bit of the correct size, and pop the extra holes in the block. There is NO modification needed on the head castings. Some blocks have one of the holes already, but it needs to be ground oblong to properly match the gasket. Again, very easy with a hand held die grinder and rotary file.

klattu 10-16-2007 05:21 PM

I'm liking the sound of that Gen 7
Bolts up..496 !
Add fuel Injection and a Gear Venders...hummmm

guy99 10-16-2007 06:21 PM

Brad,

Interesting, thanks!

Guy

bkahler 10-16-2007 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by klattu
I'm liking the sound of that Gen 7
Bolts up..496 !
Add fuel Injection and a Gear Venders...hummmm

Sure would be nice wouldn't it :D

I'm going to keep my eyes open for an Isuzu diesel for down the road if we ever need to replace or rebuild the 454. The 12 to 14 mpg sure sounds nice. With luck the current gen 6 454 should last us a lot of years yet. I've noted the engine temperture doesn't top 195 when checking with an IR gun after a long drive. Checked it once Sunday coming back from Branson and the highest temperature I could find in the engine compartment was 190. I think the gen 6 engine does cool better than the ealier versions.

Brad

swebster 10-16-2007 08:04 PM

JaG,
the test scottandlilly posted is where you want to start. These old Rochesters can be rebuilt (I rebuilt mine with a good book on the subject and a $30 rebuild kit from NAPA). They can also be replaced with units from Jegs, Summit etc.

You are getting terrible mileage and should be getting better than 5 mpg. I would look hard at the carb and the ignition and make sure things are working to spec.

The secondaries on these open slowly and don't "kick in" like they do on a Holley. I've had my 345 matted many times climbing I 75 through the mountains and thought "surely something is stuck under my gas pedal".

I've found that staying above the torque curve helps (2800 + rpm) when approaching a hill. If you drop below that you'll typically come down to 45 mph until you can get back up on the curve again.

Lastly, when are you headed up toward Louisville?


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