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-   -   Airstream 25RB with 1300 Pounds of Payload on TV? (http://www.airforums.com/forums/f238/airstream-25rb-with-1300-pounds-of-payload-on-tv-195361.html)

cru-in 05-07-2019 04:46 PM

Airstream 25RB with 1300 Pounds of Payload on TV?
 
Hi Team,

We have a fully loaded 2019 Ram 1500 (great truck). It has a 3.92 rear, hemi, long bed and a tow rating of north of 10K pounds. With the 3.92, hemi, and a long bed it is a fine towing machine. However, all those nice goodies reduce the payload to 1300 pounds. Nothing is usually loaded in the truck except 300 pounds of passengers and 70 pounds of dog.

To stay comfortably within the payload limits, we are looking at a 23FB and a 23CB. Running the numbers, and reading the posts, these would pretty easily come in under 800 pounds transferred to the TV after WD (plan to use a hensley). Leaving us at least 500 pounds for Me, DW, and Dog

First question: Am I missing anything in reaching the conclusion I could comfortably tow either the 23CB (660 pound TW with propane and batteries) or the 23FB (439 pound TW with propane and batteries)? We would use a hensley Hitch.

Second Question: Reading on this forum that a fully loaded 25RB, running a Hensley hitch, only transferred 800 pounds to the TV. Given the location of the storage and such, it is much less than a 25FB. Is it reasonable to expect I could comfortably tow a properly loaded 25RB?

Thanks in advance for your time and thoughts.
Dan

P.S. I have lots of experience towing RVs, boats, etc. Looking to make sure we have an easy drive and are not fighting the trailer the whole way. Have used and loved the Hensley hitch. :)

Hans627 05-07-2019 05:00 PM

Hello and welcome to the Forum. It's a great place to learn and share.

Regarding the RAM 1500, it is a great truck. The achilles heal of the RAM 1500 is payload as you already know. Towing a 23 or a 25 AS will pose no issues, especially with the 3.93 rear.

I towed a 25FB with my RAM 1500 with 3.55 rear. It worked relatively well except with the 3.55 it seemed to be "hunting" the right gear in hilly terrain. A lot of engine revving. When I got my 27FB I decided to go with a 2500 diesel. I hated to part with my 1500 but and happy with my decision.

My RAM 1500 had a published payload of about 900 pounds. But my biggest concern was keeping the weight of the truck within the axle ratings (3900 each for front and rear in my case). It was close but I was successful. However I was limited to what I could carry. So if you plan on hauling a lot of "stuff" you may have an issue.

If you have any specific questions just ask.

All the best!

KK4YZ 05-07-2019 05:39 PM

Hi,
I think you’ll be fine. Keep in mind that a WD hitch usually transfers about 2/3 of the trailer tongue weight to the tow vehicle, with the remaining 1/3 going to the trailer wheels. I have a Tundra with a 1300 lb payload rating and pull a 23D (aka 23CB). It’s specs are very similar to RAM 1500 with hemi. I took it to the scales coming back from a trip (full water tank). I was just under the Tundra GVWR (7200 lb) but well below the axle weights. The Tundra does a fine job of pulling our AS.

A gas engine generates power by increasing RPM. Yes, it will rev going up steep hills, but it’s supposed to do that...just stay well south of the redline.

You’ll be fine pulling a 23 or 25’ AS with your truck.

Beware: there are folks here that will tell you that anything less than a monster truck is not worthy of pulling a 25’ AS. Others will tell you that a properly set up SUV with a V6 is all you need. Indeed many do it.

cru-in 05-07-2019 05:56 PM

Wow thanks for the quick and insightful inputs.

If, as I have read on several posts, a fully loaded 25RB (with WD engaged) imparts 800 pounds to the TV, I could tow the 25RB and stay within the trucks specs. The key is the rear bed (RB) versus the front bed (FB). The RB's aft storage, coupled with a Hensley or PP, would allow me to tow sway free at TW of 10% to 12% of trailer weight.

I also want to hear from the anyone who think pulling a 25RB with our TV is foolish and unsafe. So I encourage all those inputs so i can carefully consider our path forward.

Hoping for more thoughts, inputs , and opinions.

Thanks again
Dan

uraljohn 05-07-2019 06:15 PM

AS published tongue weights
 
The supplied AS tongue weights are a bit low. We have a 2017 23D (now a CB) and our tongue weight is a bit north of 800 lbs all ready to hit the road. I have verified this with several weigh ins at the CAT scales. I do a 4 pass weigh in. First TV only, then TV and AS no WD, then TV and AS with WD, finally I drop AS on scale alone with axles and tongue on separate scale sections to get fairly accurate readings. Cat scales are second nature to me as I am an over the road truck driver and have scaled hundreds, if not thousands, of times.

We have just moved up to a 2019 FC 25 RB twin as of last Tuesday. (2017 23D sold to the first person that called on it). Our first outing will be Memorial Day weekend and I will Cat scale everything on new set up but expect at least 1000 lbs tongue weight.

Bottom line, do not go by the AS Factory published tongue weights.

cru-in 05-07-2019 06:35 PM

Quoting from a few other posts I found searching for "25RB and Tongue Weight" on the Forum:

"We have friends who own a 2015 FC25RB. Their loaded tongue weight is 800 lbs. I think the difference is caused by all of their external storage being in back while all of our is in front, plus the extra 88 lbs. of hitch weight Airstream built in."

and

"When ready to travel and hitch weight distribution set, what matters to the tow vehicle is how much weight is added to the truck with the trailer hooked up. The difference between our loaded truck and our loaded truck with our FC25RB Airstream attached with a ProPride hitch is 820 lbs weighing truck and then truck and trailer at the CAT scale. The load on each of the truck's axles is within 20 lbs of each other and less than axle ratings. The loading is what we need for 6-7 months cross-country travel."

and

"...ready to travel tongue weight is 800 lbs."


Seems to indicate, fully loaded and WDH engaged, 800(ish) pound load on the truck is a reasonable expectation.

Thoughts?

cru-in 05-07-2019 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uraljohn (Post 2239116)
The supplied AS tongue weights are a bit low. We have a 2017 23D (now a CB) and our tongue weight is a bit north of 800 lbs all ready to hit the road. I have verified this with several weigh ins at the CAT scales. I do a 4 pass weigh in. First TV only, then TV and AS no WD, then TV and AS with WD, finally I drop AS on scale alone with axles and tongue on separate scale sections to get fairly accurate readings. Cat scales are second nature to me as I am an over the road truck driver and have scaled hundreds, if not thousands, of times.

We have just moved up to a 2019 FC 25 RB twin as of last Tuesday. (2017 23D sold to the first person that called on it). Our first outing will be Memorial Day weekend and I will Cat scale everything on new set up but expect at least 1000 lbs tongue weight.

Bottom line, do not go by the AS Factory published tongue weights.

Thanks, congrats on the new 25 rb! What TV are you towing the 25rb with?

Countryboy59 05-07-2019 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cru-in (Post 2239111)
Wow thanks for the quick and insightful inputs.

If, as I have read on several posts, a fully loaded 25RB (with WD engaged) imparts 800 pounds to the TV, I could tow the 25RB and stay within the trucks specs. The key is the rear bed (RB) versus the front bed (FB). The RB's aft storage, coupled with a Hensley or PP, would allow me to tow sway free at TW of 10% to 12% of trailer weight.

I also want to hear from the anyone who think pulling a 25RB with our TV is foolish and unsafe. So I encourage all those inputs so i can carefully consider our path forward.

Hoping for more thoughts, inputs , and opinions.

Thanks again
Dan

Why don’t you try it and see? The Hemi has enough power to pull that. You can look into ways to beef up the rear suspension and see how it goes. Does it tow level? Pretty easy to find out.
If it doesn’t work out, get a 2500. I got tired of worrying about weight and balance and, of course, soon got a bigger trailer. And with the 2500 you can get the diesel.

cru-in 05-08-2019 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Countryboy59 (Post 2239222)
Why don’t you try it and see? The Hemi has enough power to pull that. You can look into ways to beef up the rear suspension and see how it goes. Does it tow level? Pretty easy to find out.
If it doesn’t work out, get a 2500. I got tired of worrying about weight and balance and, of course, soon got a bigger trailer. And with the 2500 you can get the diesel.

Thanks for the input. As the truck has factory air suspension (another item that eats up payload), I suspect it will tow level.

Concur on the power. Plus I feel the 3.92 will assure it tows fine. Also feel the longbed ( foot longer wheel base) will help with stability. It is a tad longer than my previous F250.

Wondering how reasonable the 800 pounds of imparted load to the truck (after WDH) for a "ready to camp" 25RB is. Seems like at least two folks have reported these level using a Hensley.

Bill M. 05-08-2019 07:57 AM

My 30 year old 25' Excella RB (twin) does impart 800 lbs load to the truck when hitched. I left the hitch head in the truck so that weight is not counted in the 800. No heavy hitch. I hitch the wd tight enough to get the front axle about back to the unloaded weight. I do not know the actual tongue weight. The newer wide body trailers are heavier on the GWR sticker. But I do not know how they balance.

Random shots: I like the 25' trailer size. I have not camped in the smaller ones. How much space do you have between the "payload" and the actual gross axle weights? I think all of the trailer added weight will be on the rear axle. Does the truck have a "payload" sensor that will void the warranty? And we decided the first 150 lbs of the driver and a full tank of gas do not count in the payload. What kind of tires are on the truck? Might be worth buying a Sherline scale first and just going an measuring some tongue weights. I think you can pull a 25 if you wish.

jeffmc306 05-08-2019 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cru-in (Post 2239089)
Hi Team,

We have a fully loaded 2019 Ram 1500 (great truck). It has a 3.92 rear, hemi, long bed and a tow rating of north of 10K pounds. With the 3.92, hemi, and a long bed it is a fine towing machine. However, all those nice goodies reduce the payload to 1300 pounds. Nothing is usually loaded in the truck except 300 pounds of passengers and 70 pounds of dog.

To stay comfortably within the payload limits, we are looking at a 23FB and a 23CB. Running the numbers, and reading the posts, these would pretty easily come in under 800 pounds transferred to the TV after WD (plan to use a hensley). Leaving us at least 500 pounds for Me, DW, and Dog

First question: Am I missing anything in reaching the conclusion I could comfortably tow either the 23CB (660 pound TW with propane and batteries) or the 23FB (439 pound TW with propane and batteries)? We would use a hensley Hitch.

Second Question: Reading on this forum that a fully loaded 25RB, running a Hensley hitch, only transferred 800 pounds to the TV. Given the location of the storage and such, it is much less than a 25FB. Is it reasonable to expect I could comfortably tow a properly loaded 25RB?

Thanks in advance for your time and thoughts.
Dan

P.S. I have lots of experience towing RVs, boats, etc. Looking to make sure we have an easy drive and are not fighting the trailer the whole way. Have used and loved the Hensley hitch. :)

Cru-in, welcome to the forums!

We were in a similar situation as you last year. We had a VW Touareg TDI and purchased a FC23FBQ because it had the lowest publish tongue weight 471#. That actually turned out to be closer to 700#. We used a Blue Ox SwayPro with 1000# bars to keep the weight down (weighs less than the Hensley). That turned out to be a great combination of TV and trailer.

While we loved the "Airstream experience", we found the U-shaped dinette of the FC23FBQ a little cramped. We just picked up a 27' Globetrotter FBT and a 2019 Ram 1500 Laramie Sport. It's right on the edge of being over the rear axle max of 4100# when scaled. The FC25's have a slightly higher tongue weight (ours is a little over 1000# measured).

Power and towing is fine with the 3.92 axle but payload is the issue as others have noted.

Here's another post from a related thread of another Ram owner's experience.
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...ml#post2239153

Good luck with your quest!

cru-in 05-08-2019 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill M. (Post 2239291)
My 30 year old 25' Excella RB (twin) does impart 800 lbs load to the truck when hitched. I left the hitch head in the truck so that weight is not counted in the 800. No heavy hitch. I hitch the wd tight enough to get the front axle about back to the unloaded weight. I do not know the actual tongue weight. The newer wide body trailers are heavier on the GWR sticker. But I do not know how they balance.

Random shots: I like the 25' trailer size. I have not camped in the smaller ones. How much space do you have between the "payload" and the actual gross axle weights? I think all of the trailer added weight will be on the rear axle. Does the truck have a "payload" sensor that will void the warranty? And we decided the first 150 lbs of the driver and a full tank of gas do not count in the payload. What kind of tires are on the truck? Might be worth buying a Sherline scale first and just going an measuring some tongue weights. I think you can pull a 25 if you wish.

Hi Bill,

Thanks for responding. I appreciate having another existence proof of a 25RB imparting about 800 pounds to the TV.

Good questions that raise good points. This weekend I will weigh the truck and axles to see margins there. Not sure about the payload sensor, although my intent is not to go over payload.

The tires are OEM and are sized to support the maximum axle weight.

The payload including or excluding 150 pounds for the driver is confusing. I can't find anywhere official this is written. My owners manual is vague.

thanks again for taking the time to respond and help educate me.

out of sight 05-08-2019 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill M. (Post 2239291)
Might be worth buying a Sherline scale first and just going an measuring some tongue weights. I think you can pull a 25 if you wish.

Try the bathroom scale method described in the Airstream manual. It's easy and free and more accurate than a CAT scale. Just make sure the trailer is level when you do it.

cru-in 05-08-2019 11:02 AM

found another post that references 800ish pounds on a 25RB:

"I have weighed our tongue 3 times, each time it came out around 880. This is with solar panels, full fresh water, empty black and gray tanks."

My confidence in the realistic TW of around 800 pounds for a loaded 25RB is growing.

Jim J 05-08-2019 11:12 AM

Cat Scale weights for 2005 25 FB Airstream Safari and Tahoe
 
Airstream, Loaded with items for 3 adults, weighed with the adults
25 FB and Tahoe Tow vehicle

Note......................Truck..Tongue...Trailer. ....total
As Measured.............6880.................5560.... ....12440 Hitched
Calculated........................... 618
Measured.................6262.................6178 ........12440 Unhitched

Curb Weight.............5265.................5210...... .. 10475
Cargo........................997................. 968.........1965
Cargo per Adult............................................. .....655

Bill M. 05-08-2019 11:29 AM

Yeah, the payload is confusing. The current thinking seems to be that the "curb weight" includes 150 lbs for the driver and a full tank of gas. So the driver is in curb weight rather than in the "payload". Of all the numbers, I would worry the least about the "payload". Nobody knows what the "payload" is unless they look at the door sticker. The only way to get the "curb weight" is again to read it on a sticker or somewhere. Payload is about impossible to actually measure. But the axle weights are real and easily obtained via CAT scales. I think if you are a couple of hundred under on axle weights you will be within or close to"payload". And with the WD you can somewhat balance the load front to back, unlike just dropping gravel in the bed.

It is pretty much academic to me now. When I bought my trailer I had a 10 year old F150 with 100,000 on the clock and a wimpy v8. I pulled the trailer for a year with it. Local trips up to 300 miles or so and once 700 each way to Jackson Center. I felt under powered and way under braked (drums on the back). I thought it handled fine. When we bought a truck I got a Dodge 2500 Diesel. 12 years later and 225,000 miles on the clock and we are still pulling with it. Leaving for the Rockies again this weekend.

You will probably have the trailer a lot longer than the truck. And you need to be able to live in it. I am definitely not against the smaller ones. But be sure you are happy with it. The idea of light weight appeals to me but I like my bathroom in the 25 at my well advanced age. Trucks trade pretty easy if you are not happy with them.

cru-in 05-08-2019 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim J (Post 2239379)
Airstream, Loaded with items for 3 adults, weighed with the adults
25 FB and Tahoe Tow vehicle

Note......................Truck..Tongue...Trailer. ....total
As Measured.............6880.................5560.... ....12440 Hitched
Calculated........................... 618
Measured.................6262.................6178 ........12440 Unhitched

Curb Weight.............5265.................5210...... .. 10475
Cargo........................997................. 968.........1965
Cargo per Adult............................................. .....655

Jim,

Thanks for posting. This is very interesting.

I am trying to decipher it. However, I am a bit ignorant on the terms.

Could you define what "Measured" and "As Measured" means?

Thanks
Dan

cazual6 05-08-2019 01:40 PM

Your first mistake, it's a RAM!

Let the RRUMMBBLLIINNGG begin!! Just kidding, had to throw that in there since you were so happy about your RAM.

Go bigger in my opinion.

cru-in 05-08-2019 02:13 PM

I will also be replacing the AGM batteries with lithium... Further reducing the tw..

uraljohn 05-08-2019 02:56 PM

Tow Vehicle for 25 RB twin
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cru-in (Post 2239129)
Thanks, congrats on the new 25 rb! What TV are you towing the 25rb with?

We tow with a 2013 Ford E150 XLT Premium van. Factory tow package with brake controller, 5.4 engine, 3.73 Limited slip axle, 8600 GVW package (8 lug axle hubs with load range E Michelins), cargo capacity 2530 lbs, upgraded receiver to Class V for the anticipated tongue weight increase of the 25 footer. We remove the back bench seat, it weighs about 150 lbs! That leaves us with 4 captains seats and plenty of room in the back for travel junk. Pulled the 25' home from Out of Doors mart in Colfax, NC to Hendersonville, NC with no worry. There is a pretty good pull up Black Mountain on I-40 and it held 55 mph with the cruise control engaged all the way up and over. Trans dropped to 3rd gear and engine revved to 2900 RPM. Just grunts right along!

This is a really nice van. Full factory interior with leather, Nav system, rear A/C, back up camera and reverse sensors. I looked for 6 months to find this one. Purchased used from a Toyota dealer in Orlando, FL. Incredible price! They had no idea what it was.

cru-in 05-08-2019 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffmc306 (Post 2239304)
Cru-in, welcome to the forums!

We were in a similar situation as you last year. We had a VW Touareg TDI and purchased a FC23FBQ because it had the lowest publish tongue weight 471#. That actually turned out to be closer to 700#. We used a Blue Ox SwayPro with 1000# bars to keep the weight down (weighs less than the Hensley). That turned out to be a great combination of TV and trailer.

While we loved the "Airstream experience", we found the U-shaped dinette of the FC23FBQ a little cramped. We just picked up a 27' Globetrotter FBT and a 2019 Ram 1500 Laramie Sport. It's right on the edge of being over the rear axle max of 4100# when scaled. The FC25's have a slightly higher tongue weight (ours is a little over 1000# measured).

Power and towing is fine with the 3.92 axle but payload is the issue as others have noted.

Here's another post from a related thread of another Ram owner's experience.
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...ml#post2239153

Good luck with your quest!

Thanks for the response.

1) Wow! Are you saying your TW (with only batteries and propane) was 700 vice the 471 Airstream advertises? Or was the 700 fully loaded?

2) Yes the 25 do have higher TWs. That is why we are only interested in the 25RB. The Rear Bedroom and storage limits the loaded TW to about 800 pounds.

3) Thanks tons for the link. I read it all. It was very interesting.

Thanks Again
Dan

Countryboy59 05-08-2019 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cru-in (Post 2239428)
I will also be replacing the AGM batteries with lithium... Further reducing the tw..

You guys do realize that tongue weight is a static measurement? You can move stuff around all you want but when you brake there’s a lot more Load on the tongue.

out of sight 05-08-2019 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Countryboy59 (Post 2239466)
You guys do realize that tongue weight is a static measurement? You can move stuff around all you want but when you brake there’s a lot more Load on the tongue.

That is an interesting point. What happens to the rig's weight distribution when the brakes are applied? The front of the trailer will tend to dive down as you said. But at the same time the tow vehicle dives down in the front and goes up in the back.

Countryboy59 05-09-2019 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by out of sight (Post 2239471)
That is an interesting point. What happens to the rig's weight distribution when the brakes are applied? The front of the trailer will tend to dive down as you said. But at the same time the tow vehicle dives down in the front and goes up in the back.

Maybe. I’m just saying all the juggling, moving the bicycles, barbecue and batteries around to reduce a static load may be missing the point. Load from the trailer diving down + load from rear of the truck going up are both added to the hitch. Use common sense. Balancing a trailer to meet an undersized vehicle’s load limit may not be smart.

Gondul 05-09-2019 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cru-in (Post 2239457)
Thanks for the response.

1) Wow! Are you saying your TW (with only batteries and propane) was 700 vice the 471 Airstream advertises? Or was the 700 fully loaded?

Dan

700 was likely the TW once they put all their stuff in the AS.

The published TW from AS is dry weight... as others have mentioned, that really isn't a good number to base your TV.

AS seem to use close to a 12-13% TW value.. find the GVWR of the AS you want and then calculate the TW, then pair up an appropriate TV.

My 2 cents...

KK4YZ 05-09-2019 06:42 AM

+1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Countryboy59 (Post 2239592)
Maybe. I’m just saying all the juggling, moving the bicycles, barbecue and batteries around to reduce a static load may be missing the point. Load from the trailer diving down + load from rear of the truck going up are both added to the hitch. Use common sense. Balancing a trailer to meet an undersized vehicle’s load limit may not be smart.

Agree. Trailer loading should be focused on maintaining tongue weight between 10-15% of trailer weight...for stability. That is most important.

OP, are you determined to keep your present tow vehicle? You have to decide what your priority is: choice of AS or choice of truck? If you’re open to trading up on the truck, then pick the AS you want then take your truck/trailer to the scales (set up for camping. Bring wife, dogs bikes,etc). Focus on the bottom line: GVWR and axle ratings. If you’re good there and feel like the rig handles well, you’re all set. If you’re not comfortable, then go with a 3/4 ton for your peace of mind.

jeffmc306 05-09-2019 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cru-in (Post 2239457)
Thanks for the response.

1) Wow! Are you saying your TW (with only batteries and propane) was 700 vice the 471 Airstream advertises? Or was the 700 fully loaded?

2) Yes the 25 do have higher TWs. That is why we are only interested in the 25RB. The Rear Bedroom and storage limits the loaded TW to about 800 pounds.

3) Thanks tons for the link. I read it all. It was very interesting.

Thanks Again
Dan

Dan, the 700 was loaded with our gear but not packed to the max.

1) We experienced a severe sway incident the first time out. The dealer had spec'd 550# bars on the Blue Ox. When we returned I did the bathroom scale exercise and discovered the actual weight. I called Blue Ox who recommended 1000# bars (dealer swapped them out NC). The larger bars made all the difference and give you more range of adjustment.

2) Good idea on the 25RB to keep the tongue weight in check but as others have stated, "actual" tongue weights are higher. We considered the FC25RB before the 23' but changed our minds due to the tongue weight. In hindsight, I wish we had gone with the 25' because the floor plan offers more space to relax. Moot point now with the 27' GT :-)


The other "lesson learned" for me was to make sure your brake controller is dialed in before hitting the Interstate. *IF* you experience sway, manually engage the trailer brakes. If your controller isn't set correctly (enough action that you feel the trailer pulling against the TV) this won't work and your vehicle is doing most of the braking. Test on a back road with no traffic until you're satisfied.

Biker 05-09-2019 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffmc306 (Post 2239651)
We considered the FC25RB before the 23' but changed our minds due to the tongue weight. In hindsight, I wish we had gone with the 25' because the floor plan offers more space to relax.

This is an excellent point, which I learned the hard way. If you compromise your trailer choice based on the tow vehicle, then you will most likely be upsizing both in the near future.

cru-in 05-09-2019 10:02 AM

1st thanks all for the excellent info, thoughts and opinions.

I probably should have mentioned, I am an engineer and I lead aircraft modification projects. As such, I am a stickler about weights and balance. I had done a good bit of figuring before posting the OP. Here is the cliff notes version:

Truck
*1310 Pounds of available payload
* With hemi and 3.93 rear, truck rated to tow 10K+ pounds
* Truck has a 6' 6" bed and foot longer weelbase than the (much more common) short bed.
*We have towed trailed for decades and travel light. Usually we just have DW, Dog, and I in the truck.
*I will (as before) use a Hensley Hitch

25RB
*chosen because we liked the layout and it has rear storage as well as hot water heater in the rear.
* There are 5 or so folks reporting fully loaded 25RB imparting about 800 pounds to Truck
*25RB list at 5600 pounds with batteries and propane.
*Adding 400 pounds for solar, window awnings, etc., I considered the base to be 6000 pounds.
* adding our 500 pounds of stuff, The on the road weight would be about 6500+/- pounds
* Loading to keep the TW at 800 pounds would then yield about 12.3% of trailer weight at TW.
*even if the base if 500 pounds heavier than calculated, I have a 11.5% TW.
* 11% to 12% TW is a very good number for the Hensley.


with the 800 pounds of weight imparted to the truck, we would have 500 pounds for DW, Dog, and I. Leaving about 150 pounds of payload to spare.

I would need to assure I am under the individual axle ratings. This weekend I will get the actual axle eights from a CAT scale. Having the longer bed/wheel-base (longer moment arm from the heavy parts) should help with a lower rear dry axle weight. However, I will know the actual this weekend.

I am a bit anal and weight my rigs lots for the first several runs. Last trailer, I measured TW every time we hitched up. Just made it part of my process.

Dan

cru-in 05-09-2019 10:07 AM

1st thanks all for the excellent info, thoughts and opinions.

I probably should have mentioned, I am an engineer and I lead aircraft modification projects. As such, I am a stickler about weights and balance. I had done a good bit of figuring before posting the OP. Here is the cliff notes version:

Truck
*1310 Pounds of available payload
* With hemi and 3.93 rear, truck rated to tow 10K+ pounds
* Truck has a 6' 6" bed and foot longer weelbase than the (much more common) short bed.
*We have towed trailers for decades and we travel light. Usually we just have DW, Dog, and I in the truck. with about 500 pounds in the trailer.
*I will (as before) use a Hensley Hitch

25RB
*chosen because we liked the layout, the initial weight calcs work, and it has rear storage as well as hot water heater in the rear (helping to reduce TW.
* There are 5 or so folks reporting fully loaded 25RB imparting about 800 pounds to Truck. the highest I have seen is 880.
*25RB list at 5600 pounds with batteries and propane.
*Adding 400 pounds for solar, window awnings, etc., I considered the base to be 6000 pounds.
* adding our 500 pounds of stuff, The on the road weight would be about 6500+/- pounds
* Loading to keep the TW at 800 pounds would then yield about 12.3% of trailer weight at TW.
*even if the trailer is 500 pounds heavier than calculated, I have a 11.5% TW.
* 11% to 12% TW is a very good number for the Hensley.


with the 800 pounds of weight imparted to the truck, we would have 500 pounds for DW, Dog, and I. Leaving about 150 pounds of payload to spare.

I would need to assure I am under the individual axle ratings. This weekend I will get the actual axle weights from a CAT scale. Having the longer bed/wheel-base (longer moment arm from the heavy parts) should help with a lower rear dry axle weight. However, I will know the actual this weekend.

I am a bit anal and weight my rigs lots for the first several runs. Last trailer, I measured TW every time we hitched up. Just made it part of my process. I like to know the whole system is in balance.

majorairhead 05-09-2019 10:43 AM

I've towed a 25 rear twin with a half ton ford, then with a 3/4 ton ford.

I'll take the 3/4 ton ford any day of the week. Comfort factor went WAY UP!

Now tow a 30 foot rear twin with the 3/4 ton ford.

3,111 pounds payload.

Lastly, it ain't always a question of whether it can pull it, the more important question for me is, can it stop it?

cru-in 05-09-2019 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by majorairhead (Post 2239755)
I've towed a 25 rear twin with a half ton ford, then with a 3/4 ton ford.

I'll take the 3/4 ton ford any day of the week. Comfort factor went WAY UP!

Now tow a 30 foot rear twin with the 3/4 ton ford.

3,111 pounds payload.

Lastly, it ain't always a question of whether it can pull it, the more important question for me is, can it stop it?

Having towed for 10 years with a F250, I have no doubt a the 3/4 would be a much more comfortable ride.

You often hear braking mentioned in these discussions. Braking is a function of total weight (GCVWR). My Ram has a GCVWR of greater about 18K pounds. I will be operating at about 14K pounds. less than 80% of the GCVWR.

Please do not interpret this as trying to argue that a 250/2500 would not be better, it absolutely would be.

An interesting note is the new Ram has the largest brakes on any 1/2 ton.

thewarden 05-09-2019 11:25 AM

2 additional points to consider. 1. The weight of your Hensley hitch also needs to be factored into the TW equation. As you know, they are heavy. 2. Despite the brochures, the loaded hitch weight of a 25 FB or RB can easily reach 900lb. Together with the weight of your Hensley, you are getting awfully close to your max cargo weight rating before you and the better half have even got on board.

Running at, or near the max, it not advisable. As long as everything is going according to plan, you will get away with it all day long. But, where is the cushion when things get dicey and you need to make some sort of emergency maneuver, brake hard, or descend a 2 mile, 7-8 degree hill and the trucks brakes are smoking long before the bottom.

It is not the normal driving circumstances you should be sizing your tow vehicle, it is when things go sideways that you need to consider. Safety, just sayin.

cru-in 05-09-2019 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by majorairhead (Post 2239755)
I've towed a 25 rear twin with a half ton ford, then with a 3/4 ton ford.

I'll take the 3/4 ton ford any day of the week. Comfort factor went WAY UP!

Now tow a 30 foot rear twin with the 3/4 ton ford.

3,111 pounds payload.

Lastly, it ain't always a question of whether it can pull it, the more important question for me is, can it stop it?

Did you measure the weight transferred to the F150 with the WDH engaged and the trailer all packed up?

KK4YZ 05-09-2019 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cru-in (Post 2239737)
1st thanks all for the excellent info, thoughts and opinions.

I probably should have mentioned, I am an engineer and I lead aircraft modification projects.

PAX River?

cru-in 05-09-2019 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewarden (Post 2239768)
2 additional points to consider. 1. The weight of your Hensley hitch also needs to be factored into the TW equation. As you know, they are heavy. 2. Despite the brochures, the loaded hitch weight of a 25 FB or RB can easily reach 900lb. Together with the weight of your Hensley, you are getting awfully close to your max cargo weight rating before you and the better half have even got on board.

Running at, or near the max, it not advisable. As long as everything is going according to plan, you will get away with it all day long. But, where is the cushion when things get dicey and you need to make some sort of emergency maneuver, brake hard, or descend a 2 mile, 7-8 degree hill and the trucks brakes are smoking long before the bottom.

It is not the normal driving circumstances you should be sizing your tow vehicle, it is when things go sideways that you need to consider. Safety, just sayin.

Thanks for the inputs.

I should have been more explicit. The weight of the hensley is figured in there. I assumed it transferred only the amount of its own weight to the TT axles. Post have shown that the hensley imparts about 125 to 150 pounds to the TV (depending on axle geometry. So the number is conservative. I am only assuming it is transfering 125 to 150 pounds to the TT axles. Plus several of the posts showing CAT scale verified numbers for 25 RBs used a hensley and found about 800 pounds transfered to the TV.

Could you point me to the 25Rb with 900 plus pound hitch weights? I have searched and searched and all the ones I can find on the forum are in the 800 pound range. Many a 25FB is up there. But evvery number I find for the 25RB is around 800 pounds.

I find your TV in your pict interesting.

Can you share what it is?

I would also be interested in what your CAT scale measured weights are versus the TV specs (payload, GCVW, Max axle loads, etc.) when towing your 2016 27 foot. With its FB and storage, I suspect it is like the other FBs and the loaded TW plus hitch is well in excess of 1000 pounds. .

Thanks

SecondFloor 05-09-2019 09:59 PM

Our experience: 2019 Ram 1500 + 27FB, 18,000 miles full time RVing
 
4 Attachment(s)
We love our 2019 Ram 1500 Limited, and we tow our 27FB with it. We have put on over 18,000 miles towing on this combination so far, as we started full timing in September 2018. The eTorque Hemi provides loads of power, and we can go as fast as wish up grades - but normally we keep it at 55-60mph. On grades down - even 8% ones - we just set cruise on the truck to our desired speed, and the 8 speed transmission downshifts as necessary to keep us at that speed. We never touch the brakes, which is a big relief.

Our door listed payload is 1267#, and I do wish it was more, maybe just to make me feel better. CAT scales show I am over a little on weight. Attached are scans of our CAT scale slips and a worksheet I use to try to figure out where I am at. We weighed the Ram alone, with the 27FB attached and no weight distribution, and with weight distribution engaged on the 10th link. The worksheet is my attempt to sort things out.

FYI, we have 700W of solar on the roof, and replaced the original batteries with 400Ah lithium under the bed. We also have installed an aluminum rolling bed cover that is strong enough to support 500lbs.

For a hitch, we are using a BlueOx, but with 1500# bars. I initially thought I would need only 1000# bars, but the dealer recommended the 1500#. I am glad I have them, as I need to transfer a lot of weight via wd. The truck drives great with everything dialed in (10th link), so I am pretty satisfied with the setup.

In summary, we think the new Ram 1500 makes a great TV for up to a 27FB from our experience. The truck seems very capable to tow this size trailer, and we never had any "white knuckle moments." Plus, when not attached, it drives like a luxury SUV, but we still have the bed (5'7") for storage.

I completely understand the reasons to upgrade to a 2500. We may do so ourselves someday. However, I am posting this to let you and others know that the new Ram 1500 can do the job well, and seems to be quite safe and sturdy. Good luck!

xrvr 05-10-2019 06:56 AM

If the trailer is set up with the hitch high in the front then under braking the tw weight could lighten. A little low in the front is sometimes better.

Jobjar 05-10-2019 08:33 AM

Some More
 
4 Attachment(s)
Just read your post this morning and here is some more stuff for your consideration.

We travel with a 2019 FC FB twin and a 2019 Ram 1500 2 WD Quad cab equipped with the 5.7 etorque, tow package and 3.93 gears. TV was selected because of being a 4 door, would fit in our garage, is our only vehicle and is used daily and with a Propride setup for towing.

We have traveled almost 4K miles with this combo, including a trip thru the Smokies and are very pleased with the this set up especially with the down hill engine/trans braking effect. (7% grade)

Now here are some numbers to take a look at and maybe compare with what you have in mind.

As a side observation, our previous TT was a FC 23FB pulled with a V6 Durango. The 23 just was not working out for us as to comfort, use, and many other reasons. In our opinion the 25 is a significant improvement is use and enjoyment.

Best of luck with whatever way you go and just enjoy life.

thewarden 05-10-2019 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cru-in (Post 2239907)
Thanks for the inputs.

I should have been more explicit. The weight of the hensley is figured in there. I assumed it transferred only the amount of its own weight to the TT axles. Post have shown that the hensley imparts about 125 to 150 pounds to the TV (depending on axle geometry. So the number is conservative. I am only assuming it is transfering 125 to 150 pounds to the TT axles. Plus several of the posts showing CAT scale verified numbers for 25 RBs used a hensley and found about 800 pounds transfered to the TV.

Could you point me to the 25Rb with 900 plus pound hitch weights? I have searched and searched and all the ones I can find on the forum are in the 800 pound range. Many a 25FB is up there. But evvery number I find for the 25RB is around 800 pounds.

I find your TV in your pict interesting.

Can you share what it is?

I would also be interested in what your CAT scale measured weights are versus the TV specs (payload, GCVW, Max axle loads, etc.) when towing your 2016 27 foot. With its FB and storage, I suspect it is like the other FBs and the loaded TW plus hitch is well in excess of 1000 pounds. .

Thanks

Unfortunately I do not have my weights handy. However, when I crank up my WD bars to return all the weight to the front axles, which is where towing feels the most stable and planted, I am within my cargo weight ratings and front and rear axle weight ratings. This also puts several hundred lbs back on the trailer axles as well.

Interestingly, the published hitch weight of the 25 RB is higher than the 25 FB, 886lbs vs 833lbs. The published hitch weight of the 27FB is actually less than the 25s, 770 lbs. Of course, real world numbers are quite different, and usually quite a bit more but its all relative.

I tend to travel as light as possible based on my tow vehicles weight capacities. I have upgraded 16" wheels and Michelin tires so I even forego the trailer spare tire to keep my tongue weight down. My loaded for camping TW is 835lbs as measured on a Sherline scale.

The vehicle in my avatar is a Porsche Cayenne Turbo. It is a fantastic tow vehicle, however the downside is the lack of cargo carrying capacity. As loaded above, it is very close to its cargo capacity and rear axle weight rating. If I want to take any of the serious camping stuff with us (bbq, lawn chairs, generator, etc), then we tow with the 3500 Denali duramax.

cru-in 05-10-2019 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jobjar (Post 2240016)
Just read your post this morning and here is some more stuff for your consideration.

We travel with a 2019 FC FB twin and a 2019 Ram 1500 2 WD Quad cab equipped with the 5.7 etorque, tow package and 3.93 gears. TV was selected because of being a 4 door, would fit in our garage, is our only vehicle and is used daily and with a Propride setup for towing.

We have traveled almost 4K miles with this combo, including a trip thru the Smokies and are very pleased with the this set up especially with the down hill engine/trans braking effect. (7% grade)

Now here are some numbers to take a look at and maybe compare with what you have in mind.

As a side observation, our previous TT was a FC 23FB pulled with a V6 Durango. The 23 just was not working out for us as to comfort, use, and many other reasons. In our opinion the 25 is a significant improvement is use and enjoyment.

Best of luck with whatever way you go and just enjoy life.

Wow. Thanks. This is an amazingly helpful post. It allows me to, using your numbers, make slight adjustment for our 2019 Ram 1500, and get a reasonable estimate of where we would be.

Putting your post together took time. Time you could have spent doing something else rather than helping some stranger (me) out. This thread would restore a skeptics faith in humanity. You and others have helped me out (a stranger) with your time, opinions, and wisdom.

Thanks Tons To All!

Dan

cru-in 05-10-2019 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewarden (Post 2240046)
Interestingly, the published hitch weight of the 25 RB is higher than the 25 FB, 886lbs vs 833lbs. The published hitch weight of the 27FB is actually less than the 25s, 770 lbs. Of course, real world numbers are quite different, and usually quite a bit more but its all relative.

Humm, double checked the Airstream site (as well as window stickers on 25RB) and it shows 835 pounds for the 25RB twin. Also shows the 25FB Twin as 837. Both basically the same.

The 26RB is close to 900 pounds

I also see the 27FB is 790.

cru-in 05-10-2019 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecondFloor (Post 2239942)
We love our 2019 Ram 1500 Limited, and we tow our 27FB with it. We have put on over 18,000 miles towing on this combination so far, as we started full timing in September 2018. The eTorque Hemi provides loads of power, and we can go as fast as wish up grades - but normally we keep it at 55-60mph. On grades down - even 8% ones - we just set cruise on the truck to our desired speed, and the 8 speed transmission downshifts as necessary to keep us at that speed. We never touch the brakes, which is a big relief.

Our door listed payload is 1267#, and I do wish it was more, maybe just to make me feel better. CAT scales show I am over a little on weight. Attached are scans of our CAT scale slips and a worksheet I use to try to figure out where I am at. We weighed the Ram alone, with the 27FB attached and no weight distribution, and with weight distribution engaged on the 10th link. The worksheet is my attempt to sort things out.

FYI, we have 700W of solar on the roof, and replaced the original batteries with 400Ah lithium under the bed. We also have installed an aluminum rolling bed cover that is strong enough to support 500lbs.

For a hitch, we are using a BlueOx, but with 1500# bars. I initially thought I would need only 1000# bars, but the dealer recommended the 1500#. I am glad I have them, as I need to transfer a lot of weight via wd. The truck drives great with everything dialed in (10th link), so I am pretty satisfied with the setup.

In summary, we think the new Ram 1500 makes a great TV for up to a 27FB from our experience. The truck seems very capable to tow this size trailer, and we never had any "white knuckle moments." Plus, when not attached, it drives like a luxury SUV, but we still have the bed (5'7") for storage.

I completely understand the reasons to upgrade to a 2500. We may do so ourselves someday. However, I am posting this to let you and others know that the new Ram 1500 can do the job well, and seems to be quite safe and sturdy. Good luck!

Another amazingly helpful post! Thanks so much for taking the time to put this post together. As I said, folks willingness to spend helping a stranger make a decision is a testament to folks good will. Thanks

Your numbers help me improve the fidelity of my model. I will post all our actual once we get the trailer.

Particular helpful in my model was seeing when you engaged the WDH, it moved 580 pounds off the drive axle. Of which 380 went to the steer axle and 160 to the Trailer. Of the 1100 pounds of weight before WDH about 14% was transferred to the TT axle. Given I am considering a 25 (it should have a shorter distance between TT wheels and WDH than your 27) and my truck is a long bed (a foot more between the drive wheels than a short bed) I should see a higher percentage of hitch weight transferred to the TT wheels.

Jobjar 05-11-2019 02:06 PM

I should have mentioned that the weight ticket for the trailer is with a full water tank, empty black and grey tanks and a fridge full of stuff. Do not know if that would be significant for you.

Wishing you the best with your choices.

thewarden 05-11-2019 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cru-in (Post 2239376)
found another post that references 800ish pounds on a 25RB:

"I have weighed our tongue 3 times, each time it came out around 880. This is with solar panels, full fresh water, empty black and gray tanks."

My confidence in the realistic TW of around 800 pounds for a loaded 25RB is growing.

Full fresh water is not contributing anything to the TW as the fresh water tank is between the axles.

thewarden 05-11-2019 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cru-in (Post 2240185)
Humm, double checked the Airstream site (as well as window stickers on 25RB) and it shows 835 pounds for the 25RB twin. Also shows the 25FB Twin as 837. Both basically the same.

The 26RB is close to 900 pounds

I also see the 27FB is 790.

The weights I provided come straight from the 2016 Airstream brochure.

cru-in 05-11-2019 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewarden (Post 2240536)
The weights I provided come straight from the 2016 Airstream brochure.

Oh that explains it. I got them from the 2019 Brochures, 2019 airstream website, and 2019 MSRP trailer pages. For 2019 Models, they all agree with the numbers I posted.

m rafferty 05-15-2019 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cru-in (Post 2239376)
found another post that references 800ish pounds on a 25RB:

"I have weighed our tongue 3 times, each time it came out around 880. This is with solar panels, full fresh water, empty black and gray tanks."

My confidence in the realistic TW of around 800 pounds for a loaded 25RB is growing.

I have a 2005 FB Safari. My tongue weight loaded is slightly over 1000#
Everything you read here now and previously indicates that most combinations of TV and trailers 25 and over are on the edge of maximum weight for a 1500.
I have towed with both 1500's and 2500's. For peace of mind and much better towing if you don't want to constantly worry about exceeding the limit of a 1500, consider a 2500. If you go with the 23 and you are careful with your weights, you will be fine.

gypsydad 05-15-2019 11:59 AM

Do not use the "brochure specs" on tongue weight; weigh your trailer loaded on the scales with tongue on one scale ,and your 2 axels on the other scale, so you know actual weights of your trailer. Important to know actual data, as your professional experience you mention you have with aircraft should tell you...:angel: Remember, the "payload" weights on your door jam sticker are there as a guide to avoid overloading that particular vehicle...as some folks don't care/don't know/ or just plan ignore. My feeling is it's better to be under than over loaded...for your safety/others safety, and piece of mind.;) Good luck with your 25'! It's a great size trailer!:cool:

ForestStranger 05-15-2019 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cru-in (Post 2239089)
Hi Team,

We have a fully loaded 2019 Ram 1500 (great truck). It has a 3.92 rear, hemi, long bed and a tow rating of north of 10K pounds. With the 3.92, hemi, and a long bed it is a fine towing machine. However, all those nice goodies reduce the payload to 1300 pounds. Nothing is usually loaded in the truck except 300 pounds of passengers and 70 pounds of dog.

To stay comfortably within the payload limits, we are looking at a 23FB and a 23CB. Running the numbers, and reading the posts, these would pretty easily come in under 800 pounds transferred to the TV after WD (plan to use a hensley). Leaving us at least 500 pounds for Me, DW, and Dog

First question: Am I missing anything in reaching the conclusion I could comfortably tow either the 23CB (660 pound TW with propane and batteries) or the 23FB (439 pound TW with propane and batteries)? We would use a hensley Hitch.

Second Question: Reading on this forum that a fully loaded 25RB, running a Hensley hitch, only transferred 800 pounds to the TV. Given the location of the storage and such, it is much less than a 25FB. Is it reasonable to expect I could comfortably tow a properly loaded 25RB?

Thanks in advance for your time and thoughts.
Dan

P.S. I have lots of experience towing RVs, boats, etc. Looking to make sure we have an easy drive and are not fighting the trailer the whole way. Have used and loved the Hensley hitch. :)

We are pulling a 27 FB with an F150 and Propride. I'm at 1,000 tongue weight and with stuff in the truck bed at the Gross Vehicle weight. Being at the limit with a heavy tongue weight causes some porpoising on some roads. Trying to minimize that now with Bilstein shocks. Doing it again I would buy a F250 or GM2500. Then we could get a bigger dog(s).

hshovic 05-15-2019 09:17 PM

TV capacity :|
 
:|



That's all I can think of...


Weighed my 25FB once. 750 lbs on the tongue.


I am a firefighter/emt. In the last six years, I have seen four airstream crashes on the Interstate. All were rollovers/trailers dragging the TV off the road. All were 1/2 ton or less trucks, vans, and suburbans...


So,



I drive a Chevy 2500 with a heavy duty hitch....

:|

gypsydad 05-16-2019 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hshovic (Post 2241890)
:|



That's all I can think of...


Weighed my 25FB once. 750 lbs on the tongue.


I am a firefighter/emt. In the last six years, I have seen four airstream crashes on the Interstate. All were rollovers/trailers dragging the TV off the road. All were 1/2 ton or less trucks, vans, and suburbans...


So,



I drive a Chevy 2500 with a heavy duty hitch....

:|

Thanks for sharing that data...I agree on the 3/4T for the larger AS's...but, as you know, some folks are "stubborn" in their decisions for TV's...heck, some here still promote not using a WDH (bumper hitch even); or pulling their AS at 80+ MPH, and there are "some" commercial members who will modify just about any small SUV or PU telling the owner "it's safe now" to pull a 25' AS or larger even...what ever floats their boat!:( Only need one accident like you mention to ruin your day....:brows:

ForestStranger 05-16-2019 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hshovic (Post 2241890)
:|



That's all I can think of...


Weighed my 25FB once. 750 lbs on the tongue.


I am a firefighter/emt. In the last six years, I have seen four airstream crashes on the Interstate. All were rollovers/trailers dragging the TV off the road. All were 1/2 ton or less trucks, vans, and suburbans...


So,



I drive a Chevy 2500 with a heavy duty hitch....

:|

It would be interesting to read the crash investigations on these rollovers.

I've seen testimonies from people who have crashed. Latest was from a guy with a 2500 diesel and Reese hitch. The hitch failed, breaking behind the ball. The rollover crushed the 30' Airstream, flipping the truck on its side. Luckily only minor scrapes to driver and partner and cat.

Agree that weight of tow vehicle vs weight of trailer is critical, as is the connection between the two. Other factors that are just as important - maybe even more important - are speed, trailer gain brake setting and tires. For that reason I tow at 55mph, keep the tires at 80ps, use a tire pressure monitoring system, set trailer gain at medium + 8.5, and use a ProPride to connect my F150 4x4 max tow with a 27' FC Airstream. With the ProPride dialed in, trailer sway from passing vehicles does not occur.

The Ford tow mode setting is amazing technology that controls truck and trailer braking, matched with engine and transmission "braking". Only thing to watch is speed, tires and trailer braking. And always remember the single common factor in all rollovers is speed. It's all about physics.

out of sight 05-16-2019 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForestStranger (Post 2241988)

I've seen testimonies from people who have crashed. Latest was from a guy with a 2500 diesel and Reese hitch. The hitch failed, breaking behind the ball. The rollover crushed the 30' Airstream, flipping the truck on its side. Luckily only minor scrapes to driver and partner and cat.

Wow. The guy bought a hitch thinking it would make him safer and then the hitch caused a wreck.

n2916s 05-16-2019 01:50 PM

I am trying to get my head around the hitch failure. I can't imagine what forces would fracture the Reese head. I am also puzzled as to why the tongue didn't simply drop on the crossed safety chains, resulting in a challenging situation but one that is should have been less catastrophic...

gypsydad 05-16-2019 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by out of sight (Post 2242072)
Wow. The guy bought a hitch thinking it would make him safer and then the hitch caused a wreck.

Yea; who knows what happened...how old the hitch/condition, tire situation, etc... :brows: But, at least he was trying to be safe by using a WDH... Like I said earlier, to each his own...best of luck with not using a WDH and towing with a smaller TV then recommended for the size AS you have! Listen to who you want; follow your own zen...just try not to have an accident that involves others...:lol:

out of sight 05-16-2019 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gypsydad (Post 2242135)
Yea; who knows what happened...how old the hitch/condition, tire situation, etc... :brows: But, at least he was trying to be safe by using a WDH... Like I said earlier, to each his own...best of luck with not using a WDH and towing with a smaller TV then recommended for the size AS you have! Listen to who you want; follow your own zen...just try not to have an accident that involves others...:lol:

My tow vehicle is big enough that I don't need a wd hitch. Actually, a good rule of thumb is that if you need a wd hitch then your tow vehicle isn't big enough to tow safely.

rmkrum 05-16-2019 04:04 PM

Airstream 25RB with 1300 Pounds of Payload on TV?
 
No, I’m going to strongly and politely disagree.

WD hitch is needed to properly distribute the load across the whole rig. Sway control is needed to control sway.

Just because you have a ‘big’ truck does not mean it’s towing safely. Towing is not a “rule of thumb” evolution. It’s all about physics and engineering. It’s not guesswork.

Also, was the rollover victim using some sort of sway control and was it set up properly?

Just having a fancy hitch means nothing unless it’s set up right. Even the PPP hitches won’t work right unless set up properly.

Worse, you have to check for decent handling every time you set out. Bad WD adjustments can leave the TV front end too light, and that can easily lead to a loss of control accident. There are a lot of factors that must be just right to tow safely.

out of sight 05-16-2019 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmkrum (Post 2242146)
WD hitch is needed to properly distribute the load across the whole rig.

I achieve near perfect weight distribution across my whole rig without a wd hitch.

out of sight 05-16-2019 04:28 PM

I say near perfect because I would actually like a little bit more load on my rear axle. A wd hitch can't do that.

rmkrum 05-16-2019 04:58 PM

Add a few more things to the truck bed perhaps??

thewarden 05-16-2019 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by out of sight (Post 2242156)
I achieve near perfect weight distribution across my whole rig without a wd hitch.

Sorry, but you don't. Without WD your front axle is significantly lighter than it was engineered empty. That affects both steering and braking, which will become especially evident in any sort of emergency braking or steering maneuver.

While you do not specifically say, is it a correct assumption that you are not using any form of sway control either? If not, you are just doubling down on asking for trouble. I know your response is Airstreams don't sway, but that too is not correct.

out of sight 05-16-2019 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewarden (Post 2242172)
Sorry, but you don't. Without WD your front axle is significantly lighter than it was engineered empty. That affects both steering and braking, which will become especially evident in any sort of emergency braking or steering maneuver.

While you do not specifically say, is it a correct assumption that you are not using any form of sway control either? If not, you are just doubling down on asking for trouble. I know your response is Airstreams don't sway, but that too is not correct.

You're wrong. A pickup truck is engineered to take more load on the rear axle than the front axle. That's why your rear axle has a higher load rating. When unloaded it has too much load on the front axle. When loaded it will have a better weight distribution. If you have more load in the front your vehicle won't handle or brake properly. You want more load on the rear.

I can definitely say that my Airstream doesn't sway. I load it properly. Sway seems to be something that hitch salesmen use to frighten people into buying their product. It's not going to happen if your tow vehicle is big enough and you're loaded properly.

bono 05-16-2019 11:32 PM

Wow, just wow. I just learnt to keep away from trucks not towing anything as they won't handle or brake properly.

ROBERT CROSS 05-17-2019 08:46 AM

Rats...
 
And I thought OOS was OOM...guess I was mistaken, pay no attention, that which is expounded is singular in origin.🤓

Bob...King of useless Platitudes.;)
🇺🇸

HClews 05-17-2019 09:17 AM

Dan,

Hard to imagine that a Hemi-equipped Ram pickup wouldn't tow a 25-RB with aplomb.

We pull our 27-FB with a 2017 Durango R/T with the 5.7L Hemi. 10,000+ miles over the past two years, Florida Keys to Cape Breton Island - including the Blue Ridge Pkwy. Excellent TV, no hunting with the 8-speed trans, 13.5 mpg ave. Plus, a much nicer car to drive around when not towing - wife doesn't like driving a pickup.
http://www.snodoglog.com/images/1197-EnrouteHome1.jpg

Henry Clews
NH in summer, FL in winter

gypsydad 05-17-2019 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HClews (Post 2242335)
Dan,

Hard to imagine that a Hemi-equipped Ram pickup wouldn't tow a 25-RB with aplomb.

We pull our 27-FB with a 2017 Durango R/T with the 5.7L Hemi. 10,000+ miles over the past two years, Florida Keys to Cape Breton Island - including the Blue Ridge Pkwy. Excellent TV, no hunting with the 8-speed trans, 13.5 mpg ave. Plus, a much nicer car to drive around when not towing - wife doesn't like driving a pickup.
http://www.snodoglog.com/images/1197-EnrouteHome1.jpg

Henry Clews
NH in summer, FL in winter

Nice looking rig; remember, towing isn't the problem for a vehicle; pretty much any vehicle can tow a trailer...it's controlling a heavy TT like an AS, at highway speeds that's more important to consider...also payload....what is the payload of your SUV? What is the tongue weight of your AS? Add that to the total passenger weight and any cargo you carry...are you within the max payload on your driver door sticker??:cool: If so, things are looking good...:flowers:

aftermath 05-17-2019 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gypsydad (Post 2242135)
Yea; who knows what happened...how old the hitch/condition, tire situation, etc... :brows: But, at least he was trying to be safe by using a WDH... Like I said earlier, to each his own...best of luck with not using a WDH and towing with a smaller TV then recommended for the size AS you have! Listen to who you want; follow your own zen...just try not to have an accident that involves others...:lol:


And here it is. You can't tow that trailer with your truck! And, you just might kill some of us on the road.


There are a lot of people out there that hook up their new trailer to their existing TV without giving it any thought. You are thinking about all of the issues and, I might add, perhaps over thinking a bit. You will never know your actual TW until you load things up and get it measured at the scales. You like your HA (or PP) hitch and have mentioned it several times. While they claim to provide the best anti sway out there, I don't think they are superior when it comes to WD. I tow a 25FB with my 2017 Tundra and use an Equalizer hitch. My TW, as measured at the scales, is very close to 950.



I have no trouble pulling this set up over the mountains and I have little trouble stopping it. While the braking capacity of the truck is important you must remember that the truck does not stop the trailer by itself. Proper setups will make the braking experience optimal. I am not familiar with the 25RB model but I do know that we have very little "storage" capacity in our FB. How much weight are you planning on putting in storage? How will this affect the TW? I certainly would not choose one model over the other based on this.



You asked for opinions. Here is mine. Your truck will do the job. Your hitch will help distribute the weight nicely. Your tongue weight will be in the 900-1000 pound range. You should go with the 25 over the 23 as no one says "I wish I had a smaller trailer". I have over 40K miles of towing my setup. I used an 08 Tundra before I got my new one. I have never had any issues with sway, travel light as it is only my wife and I. My combo sits level even when we add things like, generator, extra water and a few chairs. Go for it. With your experience towing, you will be just fine.

gypsydad 05-17-2019 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by out of sight (Post 2242178)
You're wrong. A pickup truck is engineered to take more load on the rear axle than the front axle. That's why your rear axle has a higher load rating. When unloaded it has too much load on the front axle. When loaded it will have a better weight distribution. If you have more load in the front your vehicle won't handle or brake properly. You want more load on the rear.

I can definitely say that my Airstream doesn't sway. I load it properly. Sway seems to be something that hitch salesmen use to frighten people into buying their product. It's not going to happen if your tow vehicle is big enough and you're loaded properly.

Well, you seem to be one of the "exceptions" on the road we all want to stay away from for safety reasons!:cool: Your AS "doesn't sway"...until it does due to wind or an emergency maneuver....but some lucky people have never experienced this (yet), so maybe that's why you think it will never happen...count your blessings and be safe. Lots of great experienced advice here...but some folks choose not to follow it. As I said earlier, to each his own...:flowers:

gypsydad 05-17-2019 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aftermath (Post 2242351)
And here it is. You can't tow that trailer with your truck! And, you just might kill some of us on the road.


There are a lot of people out there that hook up their new trailer to their existing TV without giving it any thought. You are thinking about all of the issues and, I might add, perhaps over thinking a bit. You will never know your actual TW until you load things up and get it measured at the scales. You like your HA (or PP) hitch and have mentioned it several times. While they claim to provide the best anti sway out there, I don't think they are superior when it comes to WD. I tow a 25FB with my 2017 Tundra and use an Equalizer hitch. My TW, as measured at the scales, is very close to 950.



I have no trouble pulling this set up over the mountains and I have little trouble stopping it. While the braking capacity of the truck is important you must remember that the truck does not stop the trailer by itself. Proper setups will make the braking experience optimal. I am not familiar with the 25RB model but I do know that we have very little "storage" capacity in our FB. How much weight are you planning on putting in storage? How will this affect the TW? I certainly would not choose one model over the other based on this.



You asked for opinions. Here is mine. Your truck will do the job. Your hitch will help distribute the weight nicely. Your tongue weight will be in the 900-1000 pound range. You should go with the 25 over the 23 as no one says "I wish I had a smaller trailer". I have over 40K miles of towing my setup. I used an 08 Tundra before I got my new one. I have never had any issues with sway, travel light as it is only my wife and I. My combo sits level even when we add things like, generator, extra water and a few chairs. Go for it. With your experience towing, you will be just fine.

Sounds right! (only reason to go with the 23' might be if your single...but my single friend who has a new 23', now says he wishes he would have gotten the 25'!) We had 3 25's and love the size; just didn't like the lounge/dinning set up, which is why we moved to the 28 and a larger TV...I loved my F150 EB with the 25's...thought that size was great match up, but I was over the payload rating...didn't understand that part of the equation till a year or more after I owned it...we are all learning and trying to be safe on the road, while enjoying the AS life! (well, let me clarify that...most of us I think are trying!)

smithcreek 05-17-2019 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by out of sight (Post 2242178)
You're wrong. A pickup truck is engineered to take more load on the rear axle than the front axle. That's why your rear axle has a higher load rating. When unloaded it has too much load on the front axle.

When the weight goes IN THE BED, sure, right up to the GVWR or GAWR. Most of the weight will end up on the rear axle but some also goes to the front. There's a big difference between that and putting the weight on a hitch that sticks out more than 4' behind the rear axle. At what point is it a problem? I don't know, especially for a vehicle I've never driven or towed with. But you don't seem to have a problem with actually knowing facts before handing out advice do you?

thewarden 05-17-2019 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by out of sight (Post 2242178)
You're wrong. A pickup truck is engineered to take more load on the rear axle than the front axle. That's why your rear axle has a higher load rating. When unloaded it has too much load on the front axle. When loaded it will have a better weight distribution. If you have more load in the front your vehicle won't handle or brake properly. You want more load on the rear.

I can definitely say that my Airstream doesn't sway. I load it properly. Sway seems to be something that hitch salesmen use to frighten people into buying their product. It's not going to happen if your tow vehicle is big enough and you're loaded properly.

You can not be serious with your comment that an unloaded trucks front axle is overloaded. :bb: Pickup trucks are designed to take on its load in the box of the truck. Properly loaded, they will never, ever, take weight off the front axle. A properly loaded truck bed may add some weight to the front axle, but not a lot. Case in point, my fifth wheel has a pin weight of about 3500 lbs. My 5th wheel hitch is positioned just slightly ahead of the rear axle. When weighed, the front axle weighs pretty much exactly the same, with or without the trailer. All the pin weight is taken up by the rear axle, as it should.

But, when you add all the weight well behind the rear axle, as is the case with a tow ball, which is also well behind the rear bumper of the vehicle, this changes the dynamic significantly. Now the rear axle acts as a fulcrum and allows the weight placed behind it to lift the weight in front of it taking critical weight off the front tires. Trucks were not designed to do this, hence the WD hitch to correct this situation. Remember, most of the vehicles braking is done by the front wheels, not the rear.

I would guess that 2/3rds of the pickups being driven today don't see much of anything in the box for the most part. So, according to your statement, most trucks are engineered to spend their life driving around with overloaded front axles and are only properly balanced when about a 1000lbs is placed on the ball hitch. I strongly disagree.

When you get right down to it, pickup trucks are not the most ideal tow vehicle, despite the hype and propaganda by the dealers. We are forced to use them for towing to deal with the cargo capacity of most non-truck tow vehicles. Case in point. I tow my AS with an SUV and a 1 ton truck. The only thing the 1 ton has over the SUV is cargo carrying capacity and a bit more power. The SUV is a twin turbo V8, so it is not lacking in power for towing. When towing with the SUV, it handles, manuveres, and brakes significantly better than the truck in all circumstances. Unfortunately, If I want to load up on the camping gear and take the teenager with us, We are relegated to the truck as the SUV would be over its capacity.

Anyway, you stick with no WD or sway control on your truck. You are in Florida and I am in Western Canada so we are not likely to meet on the road.

out of sight 05-17-2019 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewarden (Post 2242372)
You can not be serious with your comment that an unloaded trucks front axle is overloaded. :bb: Pickup trucks are designed to take on its load in the box of the truck. Properly loaded, they will never, ever, take weight off the front axle. A properly loaded truck bed may add some weight to the front axle, but not a lot. Case in point, my fifth wheel has a pin weight of about 3500 lbs. My 5th wheel hitch is positioned just slightly ahead of the rear axle. When weighed, the front axle weighs pretty much exactly the same, with or without the trailer. All the pin weight is taken up by the rear axle, as it should.

But, when you add all the weight well behind the rear axle, as is the case with a tow ball, which is also well behind the rear bumper of the vehicle, this changes the dynamic significantly. Now the rear axle acts as a fulcrum and allows the weight placed behind it to lift the weight in front of it taking critical weight off the front tires. Trucks were not designed to do this, hence the WD hitch to correct this situation. Remember, most of the vehicles braking is done by the front wheels, not the rear.

I would guess that 2/3rds of the pickups being driven today don't see much of anything in the box for the most part. So, according to your statement, most trucks are engineered to spend their life driving around with overloaded front axles and are only properly balanced when about a 1000lbs is placed on the ball hitch. I strongly disagree.

When you get right down to it, pickup trucks are not the most ideal tow vehicle, despite the hype and propaganda by the dealers. We are forced to use them for towing to deal with the cargo capacity of most non-truck tow vehicles. Case in point. I tow my AS with an SUV and a 1 ton truck. The only thing the 1 ton has over the SUV is cargo carrying capacity and a bit more power. The SUV is a twin turbo V8, so it is not lacking in power for towing. When towing with the SUV, it handles, manuveres, and brakes significantly better than the truck in all circumstances. Unfortunately, If I want to load up on the camping gear and take the teenager with us, We are relegated to the truck as the SUV would be over its capacity.

Anyway, you stick with no WD or sway control on your truck. You are in Florida and I am in Western Canada so we are not likely to meet on the road.

You are forgetting the fact that there is a 1000 pound engine sitting on the front wheels. If somehow the manufacturer could achieve a 50/50 weight distribution in a front engine vehicle without disturbing the vehicle layout he would surely do it. In order to balance the vehicle for optimal handling and braking you need at east half of the total weight over the rear wheels. It would not be wise to use a weight distribution hitch to put load from the rear axle over to the front axle when there is already too much load there.

out of sight 05-17-2019 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smithcreek (Post 2242359)
When the weight goes IN THE BED, sure, right up to the GVWR or GAWR. Most of the weight will end up on the rear axle but some also goes to the front. There's a big difference between that and putting the weight on a hitch that sticks out more than 4' behind the rear axle. At what point is it a problem? I don't know, especially for a vehicle I've never driven or towed with. But you don't seem to have a problem with actually knowing facts before handing out advice do you?

Don't think about the hitch. Think about what is the best weight distribution for the tow vehicle for optimal handling and braking. If you need a hitch to achieve that then that's fine. But in many cases the hitch will actually worsen the situation.

bono 05-17-2019 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by out of sight (Post 2242406)
You are forgetting the fact that there is a 1000 pound engine sitting on the front wheels. If somehow the manufacturer could achieve a 50/50 weight distribution in a front engine vehicle without disturbing the vehicle layout he would surely do it. (...)

BMW is "achieving" this for decades.

out of sight 05-17-2019 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bono (Post 2242409)
BMW is "achieving" this for decades.

Correct. A BMW needs a wd hitch to tow a trailer with more than a few hundred pounds of tongue weight.

thewarden 05-17-2019 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by out of sight (Post 2242407)
Don't think about the hitch. Think about what is the best weight distribution for the tow vehicle for optimal handling and braking. If you need a hitch to achieve that then that's fine. But in many cases the hitch will actually worsen the situation.

OK, you need to stop espousing your opinion as if it were some sort of fact. Some folks on here are actually looking for advise on an issue because they do not know something and your comments, which come across as fact, may be taken to heart, which is just plain dangerous.

Your posts demonstrate to anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of physics or engineering, you do not understand the principles of either.

out of sight 05-17-2019 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewarden (Post 2242411)
OK, you need to stop espousing your opinion as if it were some sort of fact. Some folks on here are actually looking for advise on an issue because they do not know something and your comments, which come across as fact, may be taken to heart, which is just plain dangerous.

Your posts demonstrate to anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of physics or engineering, you do not understand the principles of either.

I am espousing facts. Heeding my advice will make you safer.

bono 05-17-2019 02:31 PM

https://i.imgur.com/EECUS4j.jpg

smithcreek 05-17-2019 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by out of sight (Post 2242410)
Correct. A BMW needs a wd hitch to tow a trailer with more than a few hundred pounds of tongue weight.

Weird... In the past month you've become an expert on towing with BWM's also?

Quote:

Originally Posted by out of sight (Post 2227634)
He's towing a 4500 lb trailer with a 450 lb tongue weight using a BMW diesel rated to tow 6000 lbs with a 600 lb tongue weight. Assuming he doesn't exceed the BMW payload limit by overloading the back of the car he's well within safe tow limits, with or without a weight distribution hitch.

And that's the advice you gave with absolutely no idea that the hitch in question was some oddball Euro-hitch, completely inadequate for towing a 22' AS. Luckily in that thread there was a person or two with actual BMW towing experience to give good advice and recommend an aftermarket hitch with WD capability.

out of sight 05-17-2019 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smithcreek (Post 2242422)
Weird... In the past month you've become an expert on towing with BWM's also?



And that's the advice you gave with absolutely no idea that the hitch in question was some oddball Euro-hitch, completely inadequate for towing a 22' AS. Luckily in that thread there was a person or two with actual BMW towing experience to give good advice and recommend an aftermarket hitch with WD capability.

Yup. You can tow a 22 on the ball with a BMW. I've towed one on the ball with my Mercedes, a similar vehicle. Drives like a charm. No sway either. I'm not sure what BMW says about wd hitches. MB doesn't allow them. Probably BMW doesn't either.

jcl 05-17-2019 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by out of sight (Post 2242406)
You are forgetting the fact that there is a 1000 pound engine sitting on the front wheels. If somehow the manufacturer could achieve a 50/50 weight distribution in a front engine vehicle without disturbing the vehicle layout he would surely do it. In order to balance the vehicle for optimal handling and braking you need at east half of the total weight over the rear wheels. It would not be wise to use a weight distribution hitch to put load from the rear axle over to the front axle when there is already too much load there.

You are incorrect when you refer to an unloaded pickup truck as having an overloaded front axle. It simply isn't true. Perhaps what you are trying to say is that the unloaded vehicle has a front axle weight bias, eg there is more weight on the front than the rear. That is even more true when the pickup is equipped with an overweight engine.

The real issue is that such a vehicle can be a danger when driven unladen. That is one reason why owners typically add canopies, tonneau covers, and carry ballast in the box. Of course, doing so means that the assumptions about not requiring a WD hitch are no longer valid.

jcl 05-17-2019 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by out of sight (Post 2242451)
I'm not sure what BMW says about wd hitches. MB doesn't allow them. Probably BMW doesn't either.

My BMW X5 had a spec for both WD and non WD towing. Seemed pretty clear to me. Newer BMWs have a dealer-installed hitch option with a quick release ball that isn't suitable for WD equipment. BMW take no position on an owner adding an aftermarket hitch that is suitable for WD equipment. They can't warrant it, as they don't supply it. They refer to axle weight ratings as an upper limit, very logically IMO.

It has also been pointed out to you repeatedly that MB does not have a position banning the use of WD equipment. We went over the Mercedes owner's manual instructions for your specific vehicle in a recent post, where you admitted your error. And here you are back claiming it again.

Repeating falsehoods doesn't make them true.

out of sight 05-17-2019 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcl (Post 2242456)
My BMW X5 had a spec for both WD and non WD towing. Seemed pretty clear to me. Newer BMWs have a dealer-installed hitch option with a quick release ball that isn't suitable for WD equipment. BMW take no position on an owner adding an aftermarket hitch that is suitable for WD equipment. They can't warrant it, as they don't supply it. They refer to axle weight ratings as an upper limit, very logically IMO.

It has also been pointed out to you repeatedly that MB does not have a position banning the use of WD equipment. We went over the Mercedes owner's manual instructions for your specific vehicle in a recent post, where you admitted your error. And here you are back claiming it again.

Repeating falsehoods doesn't make them true.

If you look at the MB manual and the hitch receiver spec you will see that you can't use a wd hitch. Of course lots of people do, at their own risk of course.

out of sight 05-17-2019 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcl (Post 2242454)
You are incorrect when you refer to an unloaded pickup truck as having an overloaded front axle. It simply isn't true. Perhaps what you are trying to say is that the unloaded vehicle has a front axle weight bias, eg there is more weight on the front than the rear. That is even more true when the pickup is equipped with an overweight engine.

The real issue is that such a vehicle can be a danger when driven unladen. That is one reason why owners typically add canopies, tonneau covers, and carry ballast in the box. Of course, doing so means that the assumptions about not requiring a WD hitch are no longer valid.

I wouldn't say they are dangerous, just less than ideal. As for towing a trailer with a 900 lb tongue weight a RAM diesel is perfect without a wd hitch. Transferring weight back to the front would be a big mistake. Do the math. RAM publishes the axle base weights so it's pretty easy to figure it out.

jcl 05-18-2019 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by out of sight (Post 2242459)
If you look at the MB manual and the hitch receiver spec you will see that you can't use a wd hitch. Of course lots of people do, at their own risk of course.

No, the manual doesn't say that.

It doesn't say anything about WD hitches, as you already agreed. Check the history.

Quote:

Originally Posted by out of sight (Post 2224142)
By the way, the manufacturer of my SUV does not allow weight distribution hitches.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcl (Post 2224217)
Does not allow, or does not comment on? I reviewed the 2014 ML owner's manual (US version) and it does not mention weight distributing hitches anywhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by out of sight (Post 2224222)
That's correct. They don't address w/d hitches. So the owner has to take the responsibility. They do limit the hitch pin to ball distances to 7.5" which effectively says you can't use a w/d hitch.

Instead of blindly following the words in the manual, it is more effective to understand what they are saying, and why. They say that the ball must be no more than a certain distance from the pin, for a weight carrying hitch, which is the only design they consider or discuss. We agreed above that they don't consider WD hitches. The maximum distance limitation doesn't apply to WD hitches, due to basic physics. The reasons for a maximum hitch ball distance are that a larger lever arm with a weight carrying hitch applies a larger bending moment to the receiver, and that it multiplies the weight on the tow vehicle rear axle, which is what they are worried about. WD equipment when set up properly reduces the weight on the rear axle. You are simply making it up when you say that the manual says you can't use a WD hitch. You appear to have already formed your own conclusion, and are then trying to twist the manufacturer's words to fit your theory.

Also, you need to understand that you always tow at your own risk. If you think that a manufacturer's spec is a defence after you crash, you should try telling the judge that it couldn't possibly be your fault, since you were within manufacturer's recommendations, and see how far you get.

jcl 05-18-2019 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by out of sight (Post 2242460)
I wouldn't say they are dangerous, just less than ideal. As for towing a trailer with a 900 lb tongue weight a RAM diesel is perfect without a wd hitch. Transferring weight back to the front would be a big mistake. Do the math. RAM publishes the axle base weights so it's pretty easy to figure it out.

You failed to address the first part of the quoted post. Be honest now.

As to the second part, we can't do the math and figure it out, since there are no scale tickets indicating the ready-to-camp load in the pickup. You have suggested working off manufacturer's published axle weights, but that ignores everything carried in the box of the pickup. It is illogical.

It is possible that one would tow with a HD pickup with nothing at all in the box, and only the tongue weight, but that begs the question as to why use a HD pickup when there is no plan to carry any cargo? Unless one is simply trying to defend the indefensible?

out of sight 05-18-2019 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcl (Post 2242510)
You failed to address the first part of the quoted post. Be honest now.

As to the second part, we can't do the math and figure it out, since there are no scale tickets indicating the ready-to-camp load in the pickup. You have suggested working off manufacturer's published axle weights, but that ignores everything carried in the box of the pickup. It is illogical.

It is possible that one would tow with a HD pickup with nothing at all in the box, and only the tongue weight, but that begs the question as to why use a HD pickup when there is no plan to carry any cargo? Unless one is simply trying to defend the indefensible?

The reason that the manufacturer limits the pin to ball distance is that they want to limit the bending moment on the hitch. A wd hitch imparts quite a large bending moment.

You can do the math. Make some reasonable assumptions. The result will be the same, i.e., that it would be foolish to use a wd hitch for this vehicle.

jcl 05-18-2019 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by out of sight (Post 2242535)
The reason that the manufacturer limits the pin to ball distance is that they want to limit the bending moment on the hitch. A wd hitch imparts quite a large bending moment.

You can do the math. Make some reasonable assumptions. The result will be the same, i.e., that it would be foolish to use a wd hitch for this vehicle.

Possible, but not certain. If you believe that is the only reason, then show us the manufacturer’s maximum bending moment spec. It isn’t in the manual.

On the other hand, a longer pin to ball distance increases the load on the rear axle. And the manufacturer goes to great length to quote the maximum rear axle load. Ignoring this makes your argument fallacious.

You are taking the lack of a discussion in your manual as proof of a ban. Following that logic, the fact that your owners manual doesn’t mention towing an Airstream means that it isn’t allowed.

The math isn’t hard. But first you have to do the physics. And a course in basic logic wouldn’t hurt either.

Greg1960 05-18-2019 04:48 PM

No worries
 
I have a 2016 Ram 1500 with 3.92 diff and 5.7 Hemi. Payload is 1400lbs or so per sticker. I have towed a 2017 25FB and a 2018 28’ RB from Maine to Florida and back country many times with an Equilizer hitch with no issues, incidents or worries except “road alligators” 😬. I keep the truck fairly empty except for a couple of mountain bikes in the bed.

Enjoy your trailer and have fun!

gypsydad 05-18-2019 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcl (Post 2242615)
Possible, but not certain. If you believe that is the only reason, then show us the manufacturer’s maximum bending moment spec. It isn’t in the manual.

On the other hand, a longer pin to ball distance increases the load on the rear axle. And the manufacturer goes to great length to quote the maximum rear axle load. Ignoring this makes your argument fallacious.

You are taking the lack of a discussion in your manual as proof of a ban. Following that logic, the fact that your owners manual doesn’t mention towing an Airstream means that it isn’t allowed.

The math isn’t hard. But first you have to do the physics. And a course in basic logic wouldn’t hurt either.

The more I follow this person, the more I am convinced he is a "troll"! :mad: Unfortunate to see this, but it happens from time to time...For me, time to move along to honest folks with real experience and AS knowledge to share...:wally:

jcl 05-18-2019 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gypsydad (Post 2242693)
The more I follow this person, the more I am convinced he is a "troll"! :mad: Unfortunate to see this, but it happens from time to time...For me, time to move along to honest folks with real experience and AS knowledge to share...:wally:

I understand your point, but consider that when he adds his absurd recommendations and claims to a new thread, as he does frequently, he leaves a trail that an unsuspecting newcomer may actually heed, not knowing that the recommendations are not well founded. It doesn’t require endless debate, but pointing out nonsense claims actually serves a purpose for future readers. It flags the questionable poster as exactly that.

thewarden 05-19-2019 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcl (Post 2242710)
I understand your point, but consider that when he adds his absurd recommendations and claims to a new thread, as he does frequently, he leaves a trail that an unsuspecting newcomer may actually heed, not knowing that the recommendations are not well founded. It doesn’t require endless debate, but pointing out nonsense claims actually serves a purpose for future readers. It flags the questionable poster as exactly that.

Add me to the troll list. I agree wholeheartedly.

SteveSueMac 05-19-2019 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gypsydad (Post 2242693)
The more I follow this person, the more I am convinced he is a "troll"! :mad: Unfortunate to see this, but it happens from time to time...For me, time to move along to honest folks with real experience and AS knowledge to share...:wally:



You can “unfollow” or ignore any individual whose posts you don’t want to see. Ironically, that keeps them out of sight for your experience in the forums.

gypsydad 05-19-2019 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveSueMac (Post 2242798)
You can “unfollow” or ignore any individual whose posts you don’t want to see. Ironically, that keeps them out of sight for your experience in the forums.

I'd reply, but I didn't see this anymore!:lol:

HClews 05-19-2019 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gypsydad (Post 2242350)
Nice looking rig; remember, towing isn't the problem for a vehicle; pretty much any vehicle can tow a trailer...it's controlling a heavy TT like an AS, at highway speeds that's more important to consider...also payload....what is the payload of your SUV? What is the tongue weight of your AS? Add that to the total passenger weight and any cargo you carry...are you within the max payload on your driver door sticker??:cool: If so, things are looking good...:flowers:

The posted GVWR of our 2017 Durango is 7,100 lbs. Curb weight is is 5,133, leaving us a payload 1,967 lb. Tow capacity is 7,400 lbs, max hitch weight is 740 lbs.
Our Airstream 27FB has a "base weight" of 5,868 lb, I figure about 6,250 lb as we load it - we strive to keep it light. Tongue weight is 790 lb, but we use a weight-distributing hitch so this cuts it down about 50%. Assuming the tongue load adds 400 lbs to our TV weight, this leaves us about 1,500 lbs useful load.
So although I realize we are pushing the limits, I believe we are still (just barely) OK. As an engineer I understand that the manufacturer's ratings have a built-in safety factor. However, in case of any type of legal action or law suite, the rating numbers would be considered absolute. So to me, this is probably the more important consideration!
Our goal is to have fun - within legal limits. :wally:

SteveSueMac 05-19-2019 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gypsydad (Post 2242828)
I'd reply, but I didn't see this anymore!:lol:



Can anyone tell me if gypsydad responded to my post? 🤪

SteveSueMac 05-19-2019 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HClews (Post 2242863)
The posted GVWR of our 2017 Durango is 7,100 lbs. Curb weight is is 5,133, leaving us a payload 1,967 lb. Tow capacity is 7,400 lbs, max hitch weight is 740 lbs.

Our Airstream 27FB has a "base weight" of 5,868 lb, I figure about 6,250 lb as we load it - we strive to keep it light. Tongue weight is 790 lb, but we use a weight-distributing hitch so this cuts it down about 50%. Assuming the tongue load adds 400 lbs to our TV weight, this leaves us about 1,500 lbs useful load.

So although I realize we are pushing the limits, I believe we are still (just barely) OK. As an engineer I understand that the manufacturer's ratings have a built-in safety factor. However, in case of any type of legal action or law suite, the rating numbers would be considered absolute. So to me, this is probably the more important consideration!

Our goal is to have fun - within legal limits. :wally:



There’s always stories about law suits for over indexing on weights but I’ve never heard a single confirmed case of that. If there is,someone should show it.

Having said that - you say you’re an engineer and get safety margins and manufacturer constraints. So I would suggest the 3-pass method on the CAT scales to know for sure. For example, my 27FB Flying Cloud sees from 5700-6000# when fully loaded for camping with WD applied (so some of the tongue weight is going to those trailer axles). And the tongue is 980# / even though the printed material says it is much lower (833 I believe). I have a heavy hitch that sits on the a-frame so I’m sure that has something to do with it - but the reality is, I just wouldn’t know my weights without those scale trips.

Some will also tell you that because the myriad of measures will conflict - so long as you’re not taxing axles, you may be ok - others will say, pick the strictest constraint and don’t exceed that (e.g., my truck receiver can handle 1500# but AS doesn’t want the tongue to exceed 1000# according to the manual - so while I could jam 1500# on the truck, I keep it to 1000#....).

As an engineer, you’re probably in a better position to decide what works best for you - the scale tickets will just give you great data to work with.

Good luck and happy camping!

gypsydad 05-19-2019 05:00 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by HClews (Post 2242863)
The posted GVWR of our 2017 Durango is 7,100 lbs. Curb weight is is 5,133, leaving us a payload 1,967 lb. Tow capacity is 7,400 lbs, max hitch weight is 740 lbs.
Our Airstream 27FB has a "base weight" of 5,868 lb, I figure about 6,250 lb as we load it - we strive to keep it light. Tongue weight is 790 lb, but we use a weight-distributing hitch so this cuts it down about 50%. Assuming the tongue load adds 400 lbs to our TV weight, this leaves us about 1,500 lbs useful load.
So although I realize we are pushing the limits, I believe we are still (just barely) OK. As an engineer I understand that the manufacturer's ratings have a built-in safety factor. However, in case of any type of legal action or law suite, the rating numbers would be considered absolute. So to me, this is probably the more important consideration!
Our goal is to have fun - within legal limits. :wally:

Not to push the question the wrong direction here, but what does the sticker on your drivers door say for "max payload"; (not what you get when you start doing the math for GVWR, etc.) Reason for the question is I would be impressed at a Durango if the payload sticker is even close to the 1,967lbs looks like you have from calculations... The sticker payload number is the important number you don't want to exceed, and of course, get your scale weights as was suggested. If you have 1,967lbs on your payload sticker, that is quite a bit more then most all the RAM 1/2T's have and is impressive! I am sure anyone looking for an SUV would be attracted to a vehicle with that high payload.:cool:

gypsydad 05-19-2019 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveSueMac (Post 2242932)
Can anyone tell me if gypsydad responded to my post? ��

All right, I'm back...just couldn't resist...and besides, your posts do make sence...it's the other guy's posts/arguments that were driving me crazy...;)


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