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-   -   15 inch vs 16 inch wheels (http://www.airforums.com/forums/f465/15-inch-vs-16-inch-wheels-155261.html)

goliad1 08-14-2016 05:04 PM

15 inch vs 16 inch wheels
 
I am going purchase 27 ft flying cloud. Read about people going with 16 inch wheels. What are advantages and the science of doing this? Disadvantages?
Thanks
Larry

SteveSueMac 08-14-2016 05:13 PM

Hi Larry. There are a lot of threads here that discuss why a 16 vs a 15, as well as several threads that cover using a 15" Michelin on double axle Airstreams. I haven't found the search feature to be too helpful in the app, but if you go to Google and search for "Airforums Michelin 16" you'll see several threads to get you started.

One caution - these topics tend to offer more heat than light from time to time and everyone is willing to spend your money for you 😀

Happy camping!

HowieE 08-14-2016 06:10 PM

The deciding factor for me was the lack of 15 in. tires that I would consider putting on my trailer.

I travel at speeds well beyond the rated limit of those tires that were available when it came time to buy tires.

Mrjkq 08-14-2016 06:16 PM

16in Michelin LT tires come with an E load rating, ideal for Airstreams. The 15in are not load rated that high & considered to be passenger car tires, some on this forum use them with success. It's your call!

Wingeezer 08-14-2016 06:23 PM

As mentioned, many threads on this topic, but mainly, a lot of people feel that "ST" or "Special Trailer" tires are not very reliable and susceptible to blowouts that can cause very costly trailer damage.

Those that feel that way prefer to use LT "Light Truck" tires and so far they seem to be doing well by comparison - may be early days to judge I don't know - I did go for them after experiencing problems with Goodyear Marathon ST trailer tires. Very happy with the LT tires after three or four years use.

Thing is that for the heavier Airstreams you cannot get a suitable LT tire in 15" size son that is why people switch to 16" wheels.

The Airstream factory now offers 16" rims and LT tires as an upgrade on certain models - I think it is standard on their top of the line trailers now.

The preferred tire brand appears to be Michelin.

I have noticed in teh last years or so that other brands of trailer manufacturers seem to be selling new trailers with LT tires.

Incidentally all ST tires (to my knowldege) are rated for 65mph. maximum, not so for LT tires.

65MPH is probably plenty fast enough with a trailer in tow but I will admit that when on interstates I prefer to keep up more with traffic flow and often find myself driving around 70 "ish!"


Brian.

TheCabin 08-14-2016 06:33 PM

Your request for the science behind the choice is going to a little harder to find, particularly here. I looked for that answer from the tire manufacturers and was never given a technical answer, just told that ST must be on trailers unless trailer manufacturer lists otherwise as shown on the tire placard. As mentioned above there are numerous threads on this subject that even have a couple tire experts posting. Have fun reading.

goliad1 08-14-2016 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveSueMac (Post 1835252)
Hi Larry. There are a lot of threads here that discuss why a 16 vs a 15, as well as several threads that cover using a 15" Michelin on double axle Airstreams. I haven't found the search feature to be too helpful in the app, but if you go to Google and search for "Airforums Michelin 16" you'll see several threads to get you started.

One caution - these topics tend to offer more heat than light from time to time and everyone is willing to spend your money for you 😀

Happy camping!

Thanks for the tip on doing a Google search. Now , I have lots of studying to do.

SteveSueMac 08-15-2016 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goliad1 (Post 1835387)
Thanks for the tip on doing a Google search. Now , I have lots of studying to do.


I don't know whether to say "you're welcome" or "I'm really sorry" 😀

You'll find that I'm a person who went with 15" Michelins which are not officially LT (light truck) rated tires but P (passenger car) rated tires. Michelin doesn't recommend using their P or LT tires on trailers but Airstream uses their 16" LT on some models and of using a P tire on a trailer, you should reduce the load capacity of the tire by 9% and be sure that leaves you with some capacity. In my case, fully loaded for camping, my trailer comes in at 6000#. The 15" Michelins I use have a reduced capacity of 1985#/each or an average of 485# of headroom.

Works for me. Others would recommend the 16" version with larger wheels for the larger tires and others would recommend staying with the GYMs that come with your trailer.

Good luck!

Good luck!

moosetags 08-15-2016 08:37 AM

As you read through old tire threads here on AirForums, you will see me posting quite often on this subject. I am an avid proponent of the 16" Michelin LT tires, having had some very bad experience with the Goodyear Marathon OEM trailer tires.

As far as the science behind it, it is mostly junk science with tire manufactures standing behind ST tires as the only ones that can be mounted on a trailer. On the other hand Airstream mounts 16" wheels and Michelin LT tires on their Classic trim level trailers. They also mounted them on the Eddie Bauer trailers. What's with that?????

On my 2005 Safari 25FB I finally upgraded to 16" Michelins after about four years of dealing with ST trailer tires which included three catastrophic highway failures (blowouts). All of this tire grief occurred withing the first 30,000 miles on the 2005 Safari. During this period, I replaced 13 ST tires. After I upgraded to the Michelin LT's, I traveled another 60,000 miles without a single tire issue. When I bought our new 2015 Flying Cloud, I immediately replaced the five OEM tires and wheels with the 16" Michelin LT's. We did this upgrade ourselves, and it ended up costing us about $1,000 as we were able to sell the OEM tires and wheels for $600.

As a final note to the OP, if you are the kind of Airstreamer who occasionally tows the trailer across town to the lake for the weekend, you will probably be just fine with the Marathons. On the other hand, if you intend to travel far and wide at highway speeds, you might want to seriously consider a tire upgrade.

Best wishes in your pursuit.

Brian

AnnArborBob 08-15-2016 09:42 AM

Lot's of good information in the above posts. Bottom line, 16" wheels appear to give you more options for the tires than do 15" wheels. :)

dkottum 08-15-2016 10:18 AM

We changed to 16" Sendel wheels and Michelin tires for much greater reliability on our frequent long distance travels. If all our camping was within a few hundred miles of home we would have kept the original tires.

$1500 for new tires and wheels minus $500 from selling the originals. $1,000 upgrade on four new wheels/tires, kept the original spare.

mcomeaux 08-15-2016 12:25 PM

Tires
 
I have a 2016 27' Flying Cloud that I put the 15" Michelin XL on.
Couldn't be happier I also installed TST monitors for another bit of assurance.
Appears the trailer actually feels like it tows a bit better as well. Being in the tire business myself and having the knowledge regarding ST tires from China I seen magnitude of problems over the years. Either choice would be good for you.

Neophyte 08-15-2016 12:26 PM

I just replaced the 10-year old Carlisle Radial Trail tires on my '67 Tradewind with 15" Carlisle Radial Trail HD's with D load and 81 MPH sidewall rating. Never had any problems with the original Carlisles, they just got too old.
Wasn't broke . . . didn't fix it.

m rafferty 08-15-2016 12:33 PM

I have had two tread separations in two years and done a significant amount of damage to my trailer with ST tires less than two years old with very low mileage.
I live in Florida (hot) and drive 70 MPH. I have read this forum extensively for a year regarding tires. It is clearly time for me to switch to 16' wheels with Michelin LT tires.

pappy19 08-15-2016 12:35 PM

Sell the Marathons while they are still new enough to get $50 each. Yes, it's an expensive proposition to make the change to 16" wheels and Michelins, but how much is your safety worth? When you add a proven replacement for a very shaky ST tire, and also add a set of Centramatic balancers, you will have a winning combo. After 3 Good Year Marathon (GYM) blowouts, I made the plunge and have not had another problem. 42,000 incident free miles and the Michelins still look new.

GatorDave 08-15-2016 01:17 PM

Fully understand why AS'ers buy tires so they can drive fast. Answer the question: how quickly can you stop?? The journey is as much for me as the destination. I have to do 65 to get into high gear. But, have found many roads other than interstates that get me there. However please don't take my advice and get on my "private" freeways. Stay on the interstates. And to answer the issue "what if I break down?" I have broken down 3 times on the interstate and it is the most terrifying experience to have vehicles whiz by 18" away at 70+ mph.
I have a variety of ST tires on my 3 axles with no problems. At 3 years they have done their duty and are replaced. Monitor air pressure frequently.
Just saying and adding more fodder to the thread. by the way none of my tires are goodyears. All trailer tires ST recommendedd by the tire store.

guillaume 08-15-2016 01:39 PM

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f438/15-inch-vs-16-inch-wheels-155261-post1835624.htm
 
I replaced 14" rims with exact match 15" rims on my new 23' International (5 lug pattern - so I'm not in the 16" ballgame). For tires on 15" rim I mounted Nokian Van Tires. Look tough as nails and beat the load rating on 14" Marathons all to heck. Very satisfied with setup so far. Oh, and for those struggling with tire overall diameter on 5 lug setups, these were merely a half inch larger in diameter with respect to space in 23' Airstream wheel housing and possible interference.

May be a possible choice for someone staying with 15" rims on the 25' and up Airstreams. See Nokian website. I've used this brand before on vehicles and totally satisfied. I believe Nokian is a good brand. (not affiliated, just giving recommendation where due)

IAMGLG 08-15-2016 01:42 PM

Buy Maxxis tires and save a lot of time and money
 
Forget the 15 inch and 16 inch debates. Save a bunch of time and money and buy quality Maxxis tires and drive responsibly for the safety of yourselves and others. Maxxis (as I recall) has a 5 year warranty, only trailer tire that has and are made (as I recall) in Thailand, not China with the rest of thgem.

JBBeaubeaux 08-15-2016 02:08 PM

We just had a blowout on 15" tires
 
We just had a blowout on our 15" ST tires.

After getting advice from Vinnie at Vinnie's Airstream Repair, we bought 16" wheels and Michelin tires.

We posted photos of the blowout at http://livinginbeauty.net/2016/08/06...out-of-destiny

gandttimes 08-15-2016 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAMGLG (Post 1835653)
Forget the 15 inch and 16 inch debates. Save a bunch of time and money and buy quality Maxxis tires and drive responsibly for the safety of yourselves and others. Maxxis (as I recall) has a 5 year warranty, only trailer tire that has and are made (as I recall) in Thailand, not China with the rest of thgem.

Just read about these in latest Trailer magazine. Although I have only had 1 issue with GYM's ( my fault) in 20 years of trailering wisely ( read checking pressure often and nothing over 65 mph) I will probably give them a look.


George

Adventure.AS 08-15-2016 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBBeaubeaux (Post 1835671)
We just had a blowout on our 15" ST tires.

We posted photos of the blowout at http://livinginbeauty.net/2016/08/06...out-of-destiny

Thanks for the informative blog post. What were the readings on your trailer TPMS before the blowout?

moosetags 08-15-2016 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAMGLG (Post 1835653)
Forget the 15 inch and 16 inch debates. Save a bunch of time and money and buy quality Maxxis tires and drive responsibly for the safety of yourselves and others. Maxxis (as I recall) has a 5 year warranty, only trailer tire that has and are made (as I recall) in Thailand, not China with the rest of thgem.

We had two set of Maxxis load range E's (10 ply) on our 2005 Safari 25FB. We bought the first set after our OEM Marathons gave up the ghost. The first set of Maxxis lasted about 20,000 miles before the had tread separation. I considered that pretty good, so I bought second set. This set only lasted about 8,000 miles before the same type of tread separation started. This is when I got totally fed up with crappy ST tires, and went with the 16" Michelin LT's. If I had gone to the Michelins when the 2005 Safari was brand new, I would have been ahead by about $1,500.

Brian

canyonduck 08-15-2016 04:41 PM

Just upgraded the 15" wheels on our 19' Intl to 16" last week based on collective advice from the veterans on these forums. Stock GYM lasted less than two years and maybe 8k miles before steel cords were showing through the rubber on both sides. Just drove from Las Vegas to the Redwoods (about 850 miles) over the past two days on the new Michelin LTX's. Crossed a half dozen legit mountain passes, drove at 70mph through the Mojave Desert in 100+ degrees, on tight narrow roads through the Sierras. No issues whatsoever! This is just one person's experience so take it for what it's worth.

tjdonahoe 08-15-2016 06:21 PM

Amen to crappy ST tires,I like my michelins, and they are USA made,not China ,no more Chinese tires here..

dcasr 08-15-2016 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkottum (Post 1835546)
We changed to 16" Sendel wheels and Michelin tires for much greater reliability on our frequent long distance travels. If all our camping was within a few hundred miles of home we would have kept the original tires.

$1500 for new tires and wheels minus $500 from selling the originals. $1,000 upgrade on four new wheels/tires, kept the original spare.

______________

Why did you choose Sendel wheels over other brands of aluminum wheel? I'm going to switch over from 15" Maxxis to 16" Michelins this winter, but many Airforum folks have chosen to put their new Michelins on Sendel, and if they are better than other aluminum rims I might do that too.
+dcasr

dcasr 08-15-2016 08:32 PM

[QUOTE=moosetags;1835695]We had two set of Maxxis load range E's (10 ply) on our 2005 Safari 25FB. We bought the first set after our OEM Marathons gave up the ghost. The first set of Maxxis lasted about 20,000 miles before the had tread separation. I considered that pretty good, so I bought second set. This set only lasted about 8,000 miles before the same type of tread separation started. This is when I got totally fed up with crappy ST tires, and went with the 16" Michelin LT's. If I had gone to the Michelins when the 2005 Safari was brand new, I would have been ahead by about $1,500.
_____________________________

Several years ago I put four new Maxxis on my 29' Excella together with tire monitors; E rated and had them at 80 psi. and after 2.5 years had two tread separations that were alerted by the tire pressure monitor just as the tires started to come apart on opposite sides. Replaced with four more Maxxis but now realize that Maxxis are also speed limited. I prefer 65-70 mph on interstate highways, but don't want to worry about over speed with my tires. Without the tire monitors I would have spent thousands on repairs to the AS.

+dcasr

Adiredneck 08-15-2016 08:54 PM

I try to get as much learning as I can on others' tuition; and I had heard enough horror stories about the 15" Goodyear ST tires to know I wanted to upgrade. My 27FB Classic has a GVW of 9,000 lbs, so I could not get a 15" LT tire to take that weight within a comfortable margin. So, I went with the 16" rims and Michelin XPS Rib tires - just for good measure. Just came back from a 3500 mile trip and very pleased with the ride, performance and peace of mind. Look at your numbers, weights, capabilities - and budget. Always get the best you can within your means and you can't go wrong - enjoy!

moosetags 08-15-2016 08:59 PM

A tire upgrade is always money well spent in my book.

Brian

JBBeaubeaux 08-15-2016 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adventure.AS (Post 1835690)
Thanks for the informative blog post. What were the readings on your trailer TPMS before the blowout?

We do not have TPMS on our tires.

ltorgy 08-15-2016 11:15 PM

Wheel Info?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dkottum (Post 1835546)
We changed to 16" Sendel wheels and Michelin tires for much greater reliability on our frequent long distance travels. If all our camping was within a few hundred miles of home we would have kept the original tires.

$1500 for new tires and wheels minus $500 from selling the originals. $1,000 upgrade on four new wheels/tires, kept the original spare.

Excuse my ignorance, but I suspect not just any Sendel 16" wheels will do? What should I look for, or should I just ask the Michelin tire place? I spotted some wheels that I like, which say "16X6 8X6.50(165.1) +0 4.90". What do those numbers mean (other than 16" with 6 lugs). Thanks for any insight. Oh, and I will be replacing the lug nuts with better ones, and a torque wrench to tighten them.

IAMGLG 08-16-2016 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAMGLG (Post 1835653)
Forget the 15 inch and 16 inch debates. Save a bunch of time and money and buy quality Maxxis tires and drive responsibly for the safety of yourselves and others. Maxxis (as I recall) has a 5 year warranty, only trailer tire that has and are made (as I recall) in Thailand, not China with the rest of them.

I have had my Maxxis tires on my CCD 28 International now for 4 years and about 30,000 miles. Run 65 PSI and 60 to 65 mph in them. Have tire pressure monitors as well. For the cost of putting 16 inch rims on and tires accordingly, and with the need for tire pressure monitors on either option, you can buy a lot of Maxxis tires. However if you want to run 75 mph go with the Michelin tires and rims, please get them: I don't want you around me traveling like that without the very best hardware. I'm never in that kind of hurry to risk life and limb on any tires on a trailer.

JBBeaubeaux 08-16-2016 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltorgy (Post 1835920)
Excuse my ignorance, but I suspect not just any Sendel 16" wheels will do? What should I look for, or should I just ask the Michelin tire place? I spotted some wheels that I like, which say "16X6 8X6.50(165.1) +0 4.90". What do those numbers mean (other than 16" with 6 lugs). Thanks for any insight. Oh, and I will be replacing the lug nuts with better ones, and a torque wrench to tighten them.

Here is what we got for 16" wheels

http://tredit.com/wheels/t02

Rgentum 08-16-2016 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAMGLG (Post 1835932)
I have had my Maxxis tires on my CCD 28 International now for 4 years and about 30,000 miles. Run 65 PSI and 60 to 65 mph in them. Have tire pressure monitors as well. For the cost of putting 16 inch rims on and tires accordingly, and with the need for tire pressure monitors on either option, you can buy a lot of Maxxis tires....

Ditto: Maxxis E-rated tires on 27FB. Alta & I just returned several weeks ago from the Lewisburg, WV rally (9,000 miles/6 weeks), where I attended a seminar by a long-time Airstream service man. His recommendations:

1. Whatever: get rid of the Goodyear Marathons.
2. For typical driving (ie, up to 65 mph): replace Marathons with E-rated Maxxis.
3. For more extreme driving: replace Marathons with Michelins, which requires replacing 15 inch rims with 16 inch rims.

I bought the 4 Maxxis tires over the Internet for approx $450 including shipping & sold the 4 Marathons over the Internet for $300, for net out of pocket $150. I paid my local tire dealer $75 to change over the tires, balance them, & add metal tire stems, for a total out of pocket $225.

The Michelins with 16 inch rims would have cost me approx $1,500. With the "savings" of approx $1,300, I bought a tire pressure monitor set for 8 tires for $380.

So far, the Maxxis tires have a little over 10K miles, I typically drive between 62 & 64 mph, and so far, I've had no tire problems, & although I routinely check their pressure, I have yet to add air to them (ie, they've kept their original approx 65 psi pressure).

Bottom line: While I am a life-long advocate of Michelin tires, given modest trailer driving, the E-rated Maxxis tires om 15 inch rims have appeared quite satisfactory on my 27 FB so far.

Tireman9 08-16-2016 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBBeaubeaux (Post 1835671)
We just had a blowout on our 15" ST tires.

After getting advice from Vinnie at Vinnie's Airstream Repair, we bought 16" wheels and Michelin tires.

We posted photos of the blowout at http://livinginbeauty.net/2016/08/06...out-of-destiny


To clarify. Based on what I can see in your picture you did not have a classic "blowout" or more technically accurate "Run Low Flex Failure".
What you had was a tread separation. Yes it still lost air but that was after the structural failure.
Did you record the tire DOT serial? Have you filed a complaint with NHTSA?
Can you post the DOT serial here so we can ID the tire plant that made the tire?

The Root Cause of tread separation is completely different than the cause of a Run Low Flex failure. If you don't correctly ID the cause of a failure You are only making a wild a$$ guess on why the tire failed so may not be taking the appropriate steps needed to avoid a repeat.

Tread Seps take many hundreds if not thousands of miles to develop so your travel speed and conditions just a few minutes before the failure are not a good indicator of the cause. Run low flex failures can happen in 10 to 30 miles and can be avoided with the use of TPMS.

Tireman9 08-16-2016 10:57 AM

15" vs 16" in itself will not address tire durability issues.
What you get with the switch is a significant increase in the selection of tires. With more sizes, types and brands to choose from with 16" you have a better opportunity to select a tire that will provide significantly better durability that the limited selection of 15" tires with their lower load capacity.

carl2591 08-17-2016 08:03 AM

another great thread on tire issues presented in a very thoughtful way by many.

I don't have a dog in this hunt as the 2005 classic I bought had 16" rims and new Michelin LT tires installed.

But in reading post by other I would be more inclined to do the switch if I put more than the weekend user type of mile on one.

I also read the Maxxim ST tire story in Trailer Life and it sounds like a good tire.. They stressed the fact of the development and research labs in the US., but for some reason they decided to make the tire in foreign lands. Not sure that passes the smell test to me.

The manufacture of the tire is just as, if not more so, important than the development of the tire.

For me and I know others the Michelin LT tire is the best way to go.. and for all the ST tire disciples if you want to keep using the ST tires and feel that right for you go for it.. and I hope you never have a blowout at speed..

FCStreamer 08-17-2016 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carl2591 (Post 1836475)
.. and for all the ST tire disciples if you want to keep using the ST tires and feel that right for you go for it.. and I hope you never have a blowout at speed..

Thanks. I also hope no LT tire users have a blowout either.

OTRA15 08-17-2016 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carl2591 (Post 1836475)
. . .
I don't have a dog in this hunt as the 2005 classic I bought had 16" rims and new Michelin LT tires installed.
. . .

Have you checked the date of manufacture of those tires, which might be as early as 2003? Every tire has the mfg. date (week/year) coded on one side. If your tires are 13 years old, they are probably overdue for replacement IMO, just on age alone, regardless of outward appearance and/or miles traveled.

If you bought a used trailer with newer tires, it is still a good idea to check the mfg. date IMO. On our new 2014 FC20, the tires were mfg. in the middle of 2013, meaning that they are 3 years old, and thus have 30% less strength +/- compared to new, from what I have read. No thanks! Time to make the swap to 16" Sendel wheels and Michelins before the next major trip.

Happy Trails . . .

Peter

:wally:

OTRA15 08-17-2016 09:50 AM

Correction carl, I just now saw in your signature that you got the trailer in February of this year. It still might be good to check the tires' mfg. dates?

Via Adventure.AS in another thread, here is the mfg. date info:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete...160811155954:s

Peter

carl2591 08-17-2016 04:18 PM

yeah i have checked.. the DOT code show the tire to be now 3 yrs old. I and the PO keep the tires covered when not in use was well.

I had a set of LT tires on a heavy carpet cleaning van that were over 10 yrs old when i got around to changing them out. The side wall were cracked to a large degree and the tread depth was still above the 2/32 bar. this was a e-250 extended van we carried a 600 or more lb cleaning machine, 125 gal of water, hoses etc.. when i went across scales it was close to 8100 lbs with door sticker rating at 8500 GVW.

I try to make sure the trailer get moved at least every 60 days for at least 30 miles to keep the tires moving so to speak..

I plan to replace them in 4 yrs before we go full time.




Quote:

Originally Posted by OTRA15 (Post 1836521)
Correction carl, I just now saw in your signature that you got the trailer in February of this year. It still might be good to check the tires' mfg. dates?

Via Adventure.AS in another thread, here is the mfg. date info:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete...160811155954:s

Peter


Projet2907 10-22-2017 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBBeaubeaux (Post 1835671)
We just had a blowout on our 15" ST tires.

After getting advice from Vinnie at Vinnie's Airstream Repair, we bought 16" wheels and Michelin tires.

We posted photos of the blowout at http://livinginbeauty.net/2016/08/06...out-of-destiny

Very nice post thank you, is the same wheel and tires recommended for a 19' and does it fit ?

JBBeaubeaux 10-23-2017 09:23 AM

I would call Vinnie
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Projet2907 (Post 2024975)
Very nice post thank you, is the same wheel and tires recommended for a 19' and does it fit ?

I suggest you call Vinnie and ask him. He is one of the kindness and generous men you will ever met and he will gladly give you advice, at no charge.

His phone number is : (707) 978-0356

Tell him Jim Beaubeaux suggested you call him. And tell him hi from us!

CruizinDux 10-24-2017 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OTRA15 (Post 1836507)
Time to make the swap to 16" Sendel wheels and Michelins before the next major trip.

Happy Trails . . .

Peter

:wally:

Peter, have you abandoned the 15" options of the GYE's, Nokians to save on the rim upgrade???

I'm still undecided on the GYE/Nokians and will make my decision in the spring when I upgrade but have landed on the 15" side of the coin.

Bob


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