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-   -   Don't buy a 2500 until next year (http://www.airforums.com/forums/f238/dont-buy-a-2500-until-next-year-108299.html)

Andrew T 08-10-2013 06:03 AM

Don't buy a 2500 until next year
 
The new generation Dodge HD's are going to have rear air suspension. This would help to answer one of the bigger issues towing an Airstream with a HD truck which is it beating up the Airstream. The Air won't completley eliminate the road shock because there will still be substantial unsprung weight but it still should be a huge improvement.

Unfortunataly the 4X4's will still have the archaic live front axle and the high centre of gravity it necessistates but there is lots of room to carry a winch in the box of the 2 wheel drive.

For most Airstreamers the new 1500 3.0 litre diesel will be a better option in most areas including independent suspension with 4x4, and amazing fuel economy. However if you really want a big diesel this truck will be well worth waiting for.

Andrew T

tkowalyk 08-10-2013 06:24 AM

I am interested in the new Dodge 1500 3.0 diesel.

I haven't been able to find any information on capacities for towing and payload.

We are going to upgrade from our 2007 5.7 Durango within the next 3 years - it does a fine job of Towing our 27 Classic, but need a larger safety margin.

Bruce B 08-10-2013 06:29 AM

Two questions about these trucks, as much as I love diesels (and I love diesels!) I am not convinced that this option will work on a financial level once all the numbers are added together. If I trusted Chrysler (I have a long history here, once spurned, twice shy....) I would buy that engine package in a second! Damn the numbers, I like diesels that much. Has anyone done a quick study on the diesel option, the purchase costs, the maintenance and fuel mileage etc? I would be willing to bet that the benefits of cost are slim to none...
My second concern comes from repairing too many Range Rovers with broken air suspension. I know the benefits are amazing and I am certain that Dodge will do a better job of this but I would still be nervous.....
Bruce

Bruce B 08-10-2013 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tkowalyk (Post 1338442)
I am interested in the new Dodge 1500 3.0 diesel.

I haven't been able to find any information on capacities for towing and payload.

We are going to upgrade from our 2007 5.7 Durango within the next 3 years - it does a fine job of Towing our 27 Classic, but need a larger safety margin.

Just a will a** guess but I would think that the diesel will have the same towing ratings as most of the gasoline engines. What I am more interested in are the "real" fuel use figures. That truck with its coil springs and a reliable diesel would make an awesome vehicle. I hope they get this right.....
Actually, here is a question for Andy, how does the coil spring rear suspension really perform compared to Ford and GM's leaf spring suspension. The only thing I have seen are the Ford videos deamonizing the coils. I have driven the trucks unloaded and they are very nice. Are there advantages to springs for heavier loads?
Bruce

moparjohn 08-10-2013 07:01 AM

coils
 
I have an 09 Ram with the coil rear suspension. It handles amazing! and carries the weight of my Tradewind with ease. The rear drops a little, but no more than my 98 with leaf springs. John

And with the Hemi I get 17mpg most of the time in mixed driving (with a soft foot) and 12.5-13 mpg towing on average terrain

dznf0g 08-10-2013 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce B (Post 1338443)
Two questions about these trucks, as much as I love diesels (and I love diesels!) I am not convinced that this option will work on a financial level once all the numbers are added together. If I trusted Chrysler (I have a long history here, once spurned, twice shy....) I would buy that engine package in a second! Damn the numbers, I like diesels that much. Has anyone done a quick study on the diesel option, the purchase costs, the maintenance and fuel mileage etc? I would be willing to bet that the benefits of cost are slim to none...
My second concern comes from repairing too many Range Rovers with broken air suspension. I know the benefits are amazing and I am certain that Dodge will do a better job of this but I would still be nervous.....
Bruce

I did a detailed analysis for a fleet customer several years ago (before the added cost of the DEF emission system) and break even point for diesel vs. gas was 190,000 miles. (Not counting potential resale values)

tkowalyk 08-10-2013 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dznf0g (Post 1338470)
I did a detailed analysis for a fleet customer several years ago (before the added cost of the DEF emission system) and break even point for diesel vs. gas was 190,000 miles. (Not counting potential resale values)

IMO, the driver for buying a diesel is not the fuel savings, but the advantages in torque at low RPMs and engine braking.

With this said, the break even point for the Ram 1500 diesel should be much lower, as the the diesel upgrade is about 1/2 of the price of the HD trucks, and the mileage is probably 5 - 10 MPG higher.

I am looking forward to real world application and see how the 1500 diesel performs.

dznf0g 08-10-2013 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tkowalyk (Post 1338474)
IMO, the driver for buying a diesel is not the fuel savings, but the advantages in torque at low RPMs and engine braking.

With this said, the break even point for the Ram 1500 diesel should be much lower, as the the diesel upgrade is about 1/2 of the price of the HD trucks, and the mileage is probably 5 - 10 MPG higher.

I am looking forward to real world application and see how the 1500 diesel performs.

Yes, every application will be somewhat different. I also agree that a diesel is just plain nice. I just returned form AZ and CO last week. I took every 2 lane road I could through many mountain passes and the 2500 Duramax with my 30'er, and a 3P hitch was a complete joy to drive. Not only the power but the downhill control with the exhaust brake.
You have to balance that with the cost for your own analysis. I am still having difficulty justifying the added cost for when I do buy my retirement truck. Since I am a "flatlander", maybe 10% of my driving, at most, will be mountains. Different story if I lived out west.

dkottum 08-10-2013 08:14 AM

We have a 2012 1500 with coil suspension all around. It rides very nice with the Airstream attached with a ProPride hitch. I would love the diesel 1500 but the 5.7 Hemi also has good power and is decent on fuel. Great price.

doug

kry226 08-10-2013 08:35 AM

There is still so much subjectivity when discussing break-even points. Here in these forums, people too often overlook the versatility of the diesel truck, even an HD. If you're only going to tow an Airstream 5,000-10,000 miles per year, well obviously you may never break even, at least maybe not in your lifetime. But diesels do so much more for me than tow my AS. I can tow a variety of trailers, haul other heavy loads, manage my property, and throw deer and hogs in the bed, and all without listening to the engine sing at 4000 rpm. Not to mention doing this at the same fuel mileage as my V8 4Runner plus extra capacity, even with 34" tires.

One cannot ignore the safety and comfort margins as part of the financial equation. I equate this to putting a price on the P3 or Hensley. This goes well beyond actual purchase costs. For me, I am not sure I could ever be without a diesel truck. YMMV.

dkottum 08-10-2013 09:09 AM

Although loan interest, insurance, licensing, maintenance, and fuel cost differentials are sometimes not considered, it's part of the ownership cost of a vehicle, not just the purchase price.

doug

Bob4x4 08-10-2013 09:53 AM

I have seen the trailer wt limit as 9k for the new 1500 with the light duty diesel.That number is subject to change before the actual release.The engine has been used in europe.It will be harder to work on and imho no where near as tough as the Cummins.Changing the turbo is an 8 hour job at warranty time to give a picture on the difficulty to work on.The same engine is in the Jeep Grand Cherokee which should be on the show room floors now if not very soon.

idroba 08-10-2013 11:09 AM

From what I understand the Air Suspension system which will be used on the new Ram's will be essentially what is available on the 2011 to current Jeep Grand Cherokee's. Total air suspension, no springs, no shocks, all 4 wheels.

I have 18,000 miles on my 2012 GC with the Air Suspension, and it is a very nice vehicle. About 60% of the miles are towing miles. So far, no problems, or issues whatsoever, other than learning how to set it up with a WD hitch. Since it wants to self level, you need to find out how to turn it off (on the Jeep, press UP and Down buttons at the same time for 10 seconds), and then you can set up as you normally would.

The Air Suspension has a mind of it's own at times, but within a half a mile or so sorts itself out and works very well. By "mind of it's own" I mean that if you have used the tongue jack on the trailer and lift the rear of the Jeep, the Air Suspension does not quite know what to think of that, and does not self level properly, when hooked up, until you tow a bit. If driving off solo, you sometimes have have driven a bit before it comes back to normal level. It is a bit strange to feel the rear go up (or down) for a bit, then the front, then the rear, in order to get the proper level. It also lowers automatically above about 60 mph, half an inch. It has a cosmetic leveling feature which makes it more or less level when parked on a slight slope in any direction. It can even do that when the engine is off, I believe, but not entirely sure. And lastly, there is a "lower" feature which reduces the body height when you stop, so it is easier to get into and out of. However, that has to be manually activated, and is a pain to remember to do, so I have not used it much.

With only 18,000 miles I don't know how well it will hold up in the long run, say 100,000 miles, but I am hopeful it will be as trouble free as it has been so far. I am sure it will be expensive to repair, when needed.

AdamFL 08-10-2013 11:20 AM

As a newcomer, I won't wade too far into the fray, but I bought what I knew, a decent 7.3 powerstroke F250 with 145k on the clock for 5500 bucks. After a blessing by my longtime mechanic. It pulls the 29 Sovereign like it isn't there and after this past trip of 600 miles it gets and honest 14-15 mpg pulling. No mods et al. I put a carpet kit in it and picked up new leather seats from eBay and it is quite nice. It isn't a BMW, I have one of those to drive when I don't need a truck. I think of the TV as a tool like a tractor, use when needed. Like the trailer, paid for is always better. 50k for a diesel pickup truck these days is nuts.

BAB 08-10-2013 05:28 PM

I ordered a 2014 Ram Laramie 2500 4x4 about 10 days ago to replace my 2012 Infiniti QX56 4x4 as my new tow vehicle. Infiniti has been fantastic for the 16,000 miles I've towed with it. Unfortunately, just don't have enough room inside for 2 Honda 2000's, extra camping gear and two basset hounds. The Infiniti has a rear lift system which is sometimes problematic when trying to determine whether I've done a good job dialing in WD, or whether the vehicle is doing it for/to me. (And I am not about to pull a fuse or a breaker, either.) The 2014 2500 will have coils on the rear along with some added suspension mods for a better ride -- we'll see. I'll report back after I've towed with the new truck.

switz 08-10-2013 06:10 PM

In January 2013, I took my 2012 Dodge Ram 2500HD directly from the Dodge dealership to Keldermans in Iowa and had a self leveling air suspension installed both front and rear. The rear of the truck was lowered to sit level all the time. While the rear Firestone airbags are rated 10,000 pounds, the axle is rated 6.010 pounds. They also installed an air pump with three gallon air tank and I had them put in an air chuck by the license plate to enable topping up air pressure in the truck and trailer tires.

I have a manual dump valve to unload air on the rear bags to get the tailgate lowered for me to put stuff in the back.

The ride is much improved over the steel suspension.

tkowalyk 08-11-2013 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BAB (Post 1338659)
I ordered a 2014 Ram Laramie 2500 4x4 about 10 days ago to replace my 2012 Infiniti QX56 4x4 as my new tow vehicle. Infiniti has been fantastic for the 16,000 miles I've towed with it. Unfortunately, just don't have enough room inside for 2 Honda 2000's, extra camping gear and two basset hounds. The Infiniti has a rear lift system which is sometimes problematic when trying to determine whether I've done a good job dialing in WD, or whether the vehicle is doing it for/to me. (And I am not about to pull a fuse or a breaker, either.) The 2014 2500 will have coils on the rear along with some added suspension mods for a better ride -- we'll see. I'll report back after I've towed with the new truck.

Did you order the diesel or gasser?

BAB 08-11-2013 07:50 AM

Diesel ... Can't imagine what 800 lbs of torque will do!

kry226 08-11-2013 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BAB (Post 1338830)
Diesel ... Can't imagine what 800 lbs of torque will do!

You and me both. Very tempting sometimes...

carl2591 08-11-2013 01:28 PM

be nice to know the year of said truck. 145K is small potatoes for diesel engine. :lol:


Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamFL (Post 1338560)
As a newcomer, I won't wade too far into the fray, but I bought what I knew, a decent 7.3 powerstroke F250 with 145k on the clock for 5500 bucks. After a blessing by my longtime mechanic. It pulls the 29 Sovereign like it isn't there and after this past trip of 600 miles it gets and honest 14-15 mpg pulling. No mods et al. I put a carpet kit in it and picked up new leather seats from eBay and it is quite nice. It isn't a BMW, I have one of those to drive when I don't need a truck. I think of the TV as a tool like a tractor, use when needed. Like the trailer, paid for is always better. 50k for a diesel pickup truck these days is nuts.



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