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Old 02-17-2014, 09:43 PM   #57
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2012 30' Flying Cloud
1955 22' Flying Cloud
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Snow and heat transfer

Louieann, thanks for the offer with regard to the range fan, I will take the specific measurements for the fan so that I know exactly the size range that will work, and send you a PM.

The snow caused some problems and exposed a concern for me. First the door froze shut, with the water freezing up in the neoprene foam in the door seal. Confirmed that I had the wrong stuff, but I already have new seal for the door, and I will switch it out when I finish polishing the door interior.

Sorry about the pic through the screen, but it was about the best overhead shot I could get. It shows the snow melt on the roof where the rib rails are due to the heat transfer from my space heater through the interior ceiling skin, ribs, and exterior skin. The last photo from the front while standing on the tongue shows how much it changed just after a couple more hours of heating from the inside. It was below 15F outside all day on the day of the pictures.

I am wondering if I can put in some kind of thermal or vapor barrier with some light plastic sheeting along the ribs or maybe use some roof sealing tape to the same effect between the inner skins and the ribs. Has anyone tried this?
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Old 02-17-2014, 09:51 PM   #58
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Matt,

On my '63 I laid prodex over the ribs and riveted the interior over that. I used a 2" spacing on the rivets and yes, they did show a small indent around each one. So far I have had no ill effects.
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Old 02-18-2014, 07:14 AM   #59
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Matt the condensation issue , has been a problem for me also. I am assuming you are looking for a 'now' solution so you can continue to work on the inside, is that right? I used a space heater along with a household fan. That seemed to help a lot with the condensation plus spread the heat through out the trailer rather than having the heat go straight to the roof where it sat on the cold skin. Might help...
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Old 02-18-2014, 07:29 AM   #60
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Heat Loss?

Barry, more concerned about the heat loss. The condensation was a bit of an issue, but I just used an old hairdryer that I keep in my 2012 for thawing things out to melt the frost on the surfaces I wanted to work on, and dried them off.

I don't know if Vernon's solution of the prodex would work for me, it seems too thick between the ribs and interior skin. It doesn't sound like he has had problems, but I am not sure if I would like the indentations or the struggle to get it in place.

Vernon, have you noticed a difference in terms of heat loss? I noticed that my 2012 still has some heat loss, but doesn't show the same melting pattern based on my experience a little over a year ago.
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Old 02-18-2014, 09:45 AM   #61
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If you are looking for a permanent solution there are plenty of threads on it. I think you are looking for a temporary which might be as simple as visqeen type plastic taped to the inside walls to help hold heat in w/o condensation. BTW hanging the fan from the upper roof bow forcing the air down is a key solution.
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Old 02-18-2014, 07:30 PM   #62
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Barry, more concerned about the heat loss...

Vernon, have you noticed a difference in terms of heat loss? I noticed that my 2012 still has some heat loss, but doesn't show the same melting pattern based on my experience a little over a year ago.
I really don't have anything for a measurable comparison. I can say that 2 cube heaters kept it from freezing all the way down into the low teens. I think the lowest that I noted on my digital thermometer was in the mid 40's

Any gain would be minimal compared to the massive single pain windows dumping heat to the great outdoors.
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Old 02-18-2014, 09:56 PM   #63
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More deconstruction and windows

Vernon, thanks for the perspective on the windows. I have been working hard on those, but without finding some kind of special glass I don't know how I will make them any more energy efficient. I may just try some extra tape in between the rib and interior skin.

Back to the progress... More pictures of deconstruction on the inside. Upper ceiling panels have too many holes and too much to polish. The middle panel I polished up and got ready. I was a little disappointed when the window sill just came apart as I took it out. There was not any original rivets in the corners. One can see where the holes are drilled, but no rivets. I bought some shallow blind rivets, but since I can get access to both sides, I may just buck rivet them together with the smallest brazier head I have, or look for some new small ones. Finally, it never ceases to amaze me how the structural supports in the walls actually are not connected to much of anything. These in the corners are not connected to the C channel, are not connect to the end cap, and are not connected to any horizontal structure.

Unless there is a good reason for this that I do not know, I plan on adding quite a few L brackets to connect vertical and horizontal surfaces. Does anyone know? Is there any way that it could adversely stress the outer surface skins?

My kids helped with the picture tanking on the next day we had some good weather. Off came more windows. I try to use my dingiest old work clothes for the trailer. It’s generally filthy work. And SWMBO is always so happy when I put the clothes into the washing machine after polishing…not. Off came the propane rack and the trim from the based of the shell. The metal screws used to hold them on were chosen by Satan apparently and continue to cause pain later on all rusted and fused with the trailer components. About half came off with copious amounts of WD-40 to get them loose. But not all. Out comes the big tool of overcompensation. The grinder made short work out of them. Since I am an artist with a grinder, no damage to the trim rails. Although at least two of them are completely knackered from road damage already. They look like an aluminum eating beaver had a go at them after they were media blasted with 1” gravel. There is no saving them. Fortunately suitable replacements are available at VTSand vintagecamper.com and the new ones look great.

The black sealant is used profusely throughout the trailer, any tips for taking it off would be appreciated as well. Thanks
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Old 02-18-2014, 10:05 PM   #64
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Vulkem and Trempro questions

Ok, I need some sealant expertise from the experts. I was hanging out at Fastenal (because that’s how I roll) perusing rivets, when I was distracted by the sealants. Can anyone explain the real practical differences between the various types in layman's terms?

Interestingly, the data sheets don't use the same data points for comparison.

I was chagrined to find that Vulkem is indeed still manufactured. But having read the descriptions, which are included below and the data sheets, I am really not clear on the differences except that the 635 seems to dry more quickly and the Vulkem 116 is not recommended for indoor use. References from the Tremco website: Products - Tremco Commercial Sealants and Waterproofing. I have attached the data sheets as well. I have two graduate degrees, but neither one is in a scientific related field, so I am clueless here. I bought all three to try them in different areas depending on where they may be best used.


"Vulkem 116

One-Part, High-Performance Polyurethane Sealant

Vulkem® 116 is a one-part, moisture-curing, gun-grade polyurethane sealant with superior primerless adhesion to porous substrates. It is durable, flexible, offers excellent performance in dynamic joints and is an excellent choice for sealing expansion joints in commercial construction applications. Vulkem 116 is also suitable for certain water immersion applications and is rated for 25% movement capability.

Basic Uses
• Designed for use on poured and precast concrete, masonry work, window and door perimeters, and similar types of construction joints.
• For use on exterior applications only. Do not use this product inside an occupied building even if there are no occupants present during use."

"TremPro 626

Single-Component Textured Polyurethane Sealant

TremPro® 626 is a one-part, medium-modulus, gun-grade polyurethane sealant. It is designed for use in many applications, including lap joints and seams on trucks, containers, mobile homes, recreational vehicles, rail cars, etc. Excellent adhesion to most substrates without the use of a primer. Once cured, it exhibits tenacious adhesion and can be subjected to stress and vibration as well as expansion and contraction within a joint.

WARNING!
• For in-plant applications, ensure adequate ventilation at all times.
• Consult Tremco’s MSDS for information regarding exposure limits and other important safety information. If vapor concentration may exceed applicable exposure limits, all exposed employees must wear suitable respiratory protection and other personal protection equipment in accordance with applicable OSHA requirements.
• TremPro 626 is not approved for construction applications in occupied structures, even if no occupants are present during product use.
• For log home chinking, TremPro 626 should be used for exterior applications only.

Basic Uses
• Designed for a variety of uses within the transportation industry. It is especially effective in holding roof sheets in place against normal load vibration and air forces.
• Can be used as a sealant for log home chinking, butt joints for pre-engineered metal buildings and applications that require continuous immersion in water.
• Fasteners may be set through the uncured TremPro 626, which will act as a sealer."

"TremPro 635

Fast-Cure, Low-VOC Polyurethane Sealant

TremPro® 635 is a high-performance, low-to-medium modulus, one-component, gun-grade polyurethane sealant that cures to a flexible rubber when exposed to atmospheric moisture. Formulated using a solvent-free technology, TremPro 635 is more technically advanced than traditional polyurethane sealants. TremPro 635 demonstrates excellent adhesion to a wide variety of substrates, including ferrous and non-ferrous metals, kynar finishes, composite materials and many plastic rubber substrates. It also demonstrates excellent physical properties regarding adhesion, vibration, movement, shear strength and weatherability.

Basic Uses
• Can be used as a topical sealant in the fabrication of trailers, trucks, campers, buses, trains and specialty vehicles.
• Can be easily applied to butt and fillet joint applications."
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Old 02-19-2014, 09:49 AM   #65
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1964 17' Bambi II
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Matt,

I used Gasket Remover from NAPA to remove the black undercoating on the inside walls and ribs. It comes in a spray can and worked great for me. I'm almost ready to fit the shell back on, so I watch your progress with keen interest.

Gary
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Old 02-19-2014, 05:51 PM   #66
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Matt,
Like you are discovering, that vintage interior window trim is a floppy mess when taken apart. I've never reused any of it, it seems easier to just make new. When installing it, I rivet in 4 separate pieces. The 2 sides get installed then the top and bottom. A single rivet is in each corner and that is the only thing physically touching adjoining parts.

Your milage may vary.
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Old 02-20-2014, 07:26 AM   #67
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Vernon, this definitely seems to be a case where mileage varies between trailers, and even within them. Most of the frame trim that came apart are in great shape, and like new condition, save for the 50+ years of patina. Just strange, they simply weren't riveted together after they were fabricated. Some of the outer corners were not even lined up, about 1/4" misaligned in some cases. I've got some extra .25 3003 around, and may use your idea for one or two that are in rougher shape.

This may seem heretical for some of those that are vintage fans, but the construction quality control in the computerized processes of today in my 2012 is far superior to the 1955.

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Old 02-20-2014, 10:57 AM   #68
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Barry, thanks for the reminders on the hitch and the tank sketches. I had to make sure I added the hitch inspection on to the list for the welder, and I have been working with Steve to ensure that I was on the right track for the tank sketches and fittings. He has been super helpful, and it makes me feel a lot better about the large purchases I am about to make, especially for things that are not returnable.

On to the first polishing story!

Figuring out how to get a shine on the interior panels after the soda blasting was not as easy or as straight forward as I imagined.

I didn't really have any idea what would work. My original intent was to polish the entire interior prior to removal of the skins to get the first messy cut out of the way on the old, cruddy floors that I was planning on removing anyway. I would learn after about three full days of polishing that doing the whole interior was a) not remotely practical and b) would not achieve the results I wanted due to minor corrosion, scratches, and holes that were just too much for my needs. Now, I think that only the front and rear endcap, the center panel running down the wall and window height, and rear end lower panels will be re-used. Some of the side panels that are both only cosmetically flawed and that will be located behind existing cabinetry will still be used as well, but the ceiling and the exposed lower panels on the front and sides I will replace.

I started polishing experiments on an area that would be hidden behind the fridge, and it took about a week of 6-8 hour days to really start to make progress and figure out a viable technique, and decide how to truly tackle the issues. I started a work rhythm where I would work on the windows on the nicer, warmer days, and work on the interior on the very cold or snowy days. I put first one small, then one big space heater in the trailer to warm it up (to about 40-45 degrees F) prior to working and just went to polishing when I couldn't work outside.

My first try was to us F7 on a wool bonnet. Very little visible effect really. I then moved to a spiral sown 8” wheel with black and brown compound on my heavy drill at 1200 rpm. With a lot of pressure and many passes it started to work out, but still not practical. So I bought and tried some 3M abrasive finishing pads and some wet sanding paper at 600 and 1000 grit. The sanding material definitely sped up the process of cutting and creating an initial shine, but after following it with the spiral wheel or wool bonnet I could not get it up to the same quality shine that I could achieve without sanding first. Maybe I had to take off too much of the Alclad to get it to shine. Or maybe the looser bits of aluminum at the extreme surface of the texture just moved easier to achieve a shine, don’t know, but I wasn't going to be able to hand sand the whole interior. Sorry, too lazy, and based on the amount of time I spent polishing anyway, I know I am not lazy. Though I have learned while making my own beer that my biggest increases in beer quality over the last 12 years were spurred by my own laziness. I firmly believe that laziness is the true mother of invention.

Time to kick it up a notch. I got an adapter and put the spiral wheel on the side angle grinder thinking more speed might help make it more efficient. It had too much speed at 11,000 rpm and not enough torque or strength to do the job. I stopped that before I destroyed the nice DeWalt grinder. I tried F9 on the wool bonnet, and it may have been too cold, but really underwhelming. I decided not to waste it in case it was just too cold for the polish. Another notch brought out the sisal wheels, large block of black compound from Caswell, and a polisher from Harbor Freight. Say what you want about HF, it worked for me. Even if it died now, I got my money’s worth. The 6” sisal wheel was too fast to hold compound and push aluminum properly, but the 8” on the heavy 13A DeWalt drill (cue Tim Allen grunt) held the compound and started doing the trick and cutting effectively. Two passes later and I had the pictures that you see below. That’s about 40 hours and 2.75 pounds of black compound, 3+ sisal wheels, a pair of gloves, about 8 particle masks, and two Shopvac loads of debris right there in the pictures. Giving the sisal wheels a little trim with scissors when it got loose fibers helped too.

On the picture of the full rear you can see the panels that had hidden rivets that were not accessible until the rear window and rear cargo door were removed. I don’t think they were intended to be hidden, but they were.

I also noticed that the center piece of the front endcap is steel or some other extremely hard alloy. The media blasting didn't phase it and it shined very easily. The back was not marked either. It would be good to know what material it is made from.
Check out post 861 http://www.airforums.com/forums/f36/...-38289-62.html

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Old 02-21-2014, 09:39 PM   #69
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Removing the last of the interior skins

Some pictures of the interior as I removed the last of the interior skins. The first shows how the vertical ribs adjacent with the door do not line up or add much in the way of real strength from their shape. This is another reason why I am planning an internal marine A/C unit.

Then is the only graffiti I found in the interior of the walls right above the door. It looks like it might be an electrical sketch of some kind, I hate to think that I might be something worse.

No ribs in the upper portion of the endcaps.

Then a good look at the corrosion at the rear. If John of 65 CV (I hope I have your name correct, apologies if not) fame is out there, I was going through your 59 Overlander thread again, and I would be interested in some more details associated with the flashing that CHTR put in the rear of your trailer. I guess I could trying calling the VAP tonight since they will be on later this evening too.

Finally, I was able to remove the ceiling panel by myself through the door. The bad part was that one I missed one rivet. When iI released that rivet, the corner of the panel adjacent to the top of the door fell down and slashed the door screen I installed last year. Big time sad faces. No I need to replace that and drill into the door again.

Toastie, I appreciate the link. I am reviewing your technique, and your work looks better every time I look, given the greater appreciation for all the work that has gone into it. I would be interested in getting the source on your lampshades and window sconces. I love the theme in your trailer.
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Old 02-22-2014, 06:16 PM   #70
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Hey Matt,

Cool trailer! As you've been listening to The Vintage Airstream Podcast | Vintage Trailer Restoration , you know that I have a 55 whale tail FC in the shop that we are doing a complete restoration on. You can follow the blog that's attached to my website. We have done some creative things to allow 30 gallons of grey tanks & 30 gallons of fresh water tanks in the bellypan cavities without having anything hang below the bellypan. The layout in this trailer is pretty unique & may appeal to you.

Good luck with your project, it'll be lots of fun!

Colin

Colin has been working hard on our trailer - thanks Colin!
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