Resuscitating our '51 Flying Cloud

[calais66]

So the first steps towards getting a new, rot-free sub-floor have been taken. Got the pattern made, the new floor cut and now I'm in the stages of getting the wood prepped so it will stay rot-free for a long, long time.

Going back to my background hanging around old wooden boats, I'm a huge fan of Le Tonkinois products which I get from American Rope & Tar. Their line of wood penetrating products and varnishes are easy to apply, traditional and look fantastic. Of course the sub-floor won't be visible, but these products are linseed and tung oil based and use no artificial driers or solvents so they're very flexible once dry which means that when we're bumping down the road they'll flex and bend instead of cracking.

The first step was to fill the voids on the surface plywood with some homemade wood filler (Le Tonkinois Parquet mixed with sawdust). Once hard, I sanded it down and applied a coat Le Tonkinois Bio-Impression. Bio-Impression is great for soft woods (like the 5/8" pine plywood I'm using), penetrating deeply into the grain and setting a good foundation for the subsequent coats of Parquet. this just went on using a paintbrush.

Second, came the Parquet. This stuff is TOUGH, which is why I used it to mix the fill. It penetrates deeply as well, but leaves a strong, water-protective coat. I slopped on the first coat using a rag and the wood just drank it up. Second coat went on with a rag as well, but was finished using some 100 grit sandpaper while still wet. This technique helps fill the minor imperfections in the wood with the sandings and really drives the finish into the grain. I gave it a light sanding with 200 grit before applying the third and final coat, which itself was applied with said 200 grit. Now I just hope they fit!

1. Cutting the pattern
2. Voids filled using Parquet and sawdust
3. Initial coat (Bio-Impression)
4. Second coat of Parquet
5. Water beading after second coat of Parquet on plywood
6. Water beading after first coat of Parquet on my hand!

[Cardinal283]

Hey Calais. I saw that you had commented on my thread so I thought I'd come check yours out. Looks like we are working on some of the same problems. Floor replacement. I will definitely be watching yours to see how it goes and how you do things. I also think its great how you use boating terms (and products) with your AS! I'm a sailor myself. Best of luck!

[calais66]

Thanks, man! With projects like this that support goes a long way. These shorter days are really putting a cramp on my progress, but should have the first section of new floor installed this weekend (I hope) over some leftover turkey sandos.
-Tigh

[Colin H]

Originally Posted by calais66

Thanks, man! With projects like this that support goes a long way. These shorter days are really putting a cramp on my progress, but should have the first section of new floor installed this weekend (I hope) over some leftover turkey sandos.
-Tigh

So, based on photos earlier in this thread, you have not removed the bellypan. How do you plan on installing the bolts that sandwich the "C" channel in the base of the wall, the plywood & the steel outriggers together? You must have access to both sides in order to tighten theses bolts, like the factory did it. We've done dozens of floor replacements & everyone required the perimeter of the bellypan to be opened up for access.
Colin

[calais66]

Hey Colin. Well, our belly pans don't rest flush to the frame--they're held about four inches from it by aluminum spacers. This (hopefully) will allow space to reach under and thread the nut to the new tie-down bolts (or just insert the bolt upside-down which I could see being easier). If not, I've no problem snipping off their corners to allow access--as they make no direct contact with the belly pan at that point anyway it won't inhibit their function at all.

Of course, the one exception would be the front plate in the fore end cap as it sits so far away from the cut line of the new floor, but fortunately one of the POs decided to make parallel belly pan cuts along the inside of the frame to run a shore power line. You can kind of see it in the pictures, but it just flaps down and allows easy access.

[Colin H]

Originally Posted by calais66

Hey Colin. Well, our belly pans don't rest flush to the frame--they're held about four inches from it by aluminum spacers. This (hopefully) will allow space to reach under and thread the nut to the new tie-down bolts (or just insert the bolt upside-down which I could see being easier). If not, I've no problem snipping off their corners to allow access--as they make no direct contact with the belly pan at that point anyway it won't inhibit their function at all.

Of course, the one exception would be the front plate in the fore end cap as it sits so far away from the cut line of the new floor, but fortunately one of the POs decided to make parallel belly pan cuts along the inside of the frame to run a shore power line. You can kind of see it in the pictures, but it just flaps down and allows easy access.

This is an interesting frame design, kind of a bridge between the hopeless "Pipe" frame & the "Ladder" frame that we have today. The current design started not long after your frame was built, so I would imagine yours was not considered a success. You're going to go through a lot of work & pain in order to bring it back to "almost as good", as a poor design. Why bother going through the trouble. Keep in mind that todays towing speeds are significantly higher than when your trailer was built, plus you're likely to add more weight than original, so the loads your chassis will have to support will be somewhat higher than original. You'll also end up with a 63 year old bellypan & a substandard chassis. You've gone this far, why don't you cut the bellypan off, lift the body off & upgrade the chassis as necessary, install the floor, insulation, wiring, grey tank if you're going that route & then of course, the new bellypan. The next step would be to reinstall the body, then go from there. You'll never regret taking this route, I guarantee it
Colin

[calais66]

Well, the quick answer is because I just bought a house

Seriously though, I sincerely appreciate your advise and the experience that comes with it! And naturally if it was a pipe frame I'd be going that route, no doubt. But to this point I've been very pleased with the condition of the frame--completely rust free save some surface rust and the welds are all intact with no visible signs of stress. I've weighed out the new components and she'll be at most 250lbs heavier than she was initially, which still keeps her well under 3k dry. As for the over-all design, the way I see it, if it was good enough for the first Central American caravan then it's good enough for I-5. As far as her belly goes, I know there's a general consensus that the only good old belly pan is a dead old belly pan, but while ours may be dinged here and there it's completely corrosion free. Just don't see the sense in changing it when I'm sure I'll just immediately bang up the new one. No rust, no corrosion--wish they all could be California girls

She's a funky, fifteen panel '51!

[Colin H]

Originally Posted by calais66

Well, the quick answer is because I just bought a house

Seriously though, I sincerely appreciate your advise and the experience that comes with it! And naturally if it was a pipe frame I'd be going that route, no doubt. But to this point I've been very pleased with the condition of the frame--completely rust free save some surface rust and the welds are all intact with no visible signs of stress. I've weighed out the new components and she'll be at most 250lbs heavier than she was initially, which still keeps her well under 3k dry. As for the over-all design, the way I see it, if it was good enough for the first Central American caravan then it's good enough for I-5. As far as her belly goes, I know there's a general consensus that the only good old belly pan is a dead old belly pan, but while ours may be dinged here and there it's completely corrosion free. Just don't see the sense in changing it when I'm sure I'll just immediately bang up the new one. No rust, no corrosion--wish they all could be California girls

She's a funky, fifteen panel '51!

Keep in mind that I'm not suggesting building a new chassis, just upgrading what you have, ie closing the front of the tongue, so mice can't get in, welding the front plate onto the front crossmember, instead of bolting, extending the outriggers downward so they meet the bellypan, adding additional torsional rigidity along the way, plus plus plus.... Then you have a chassis for another 50+ years, regardless of what you put the trailer through. Granted, it did the Central American Caravan, but that was 50+ years ago. This approach will make the floor replacement much easier in the end, albeit more time consuming because you're adding upgrades, however somewhere down the road, if you decide to sell it, you'll get top dollar because of your approach, plus of course your detailed photos to prove the work was done right. The new bellypan will look incredible, plus you won't be doing it on your back. Keep in mind, you only have one shot at it, so make it a good one.
Colin

[RM66caravel]

Hey brother I am right there with you just add daughter grandchildren and anything else Murphy can throw in there! I would however grab one of those mayo covered dark and light mix sandos add a little salt for taste and think about what Colin is saying ! Not too much more than you have invested and it will allow for better sleep in the future. You are doing an awesome job as it is and if you feel good about the way your doing it then I am all over it! Now let's get real...... Where are the doggone pictures??? Add a few of the frame in there so it does not look like I am a food nut! Texas toast right?
Later cliff

[calais66]

Well, the flap section up front will most definitely be sealed, as will the area just in front of the axles. There's another post that describes this, but the spacers straddle the axle, creating a kind of channel over it. The belly skins above the axle are attached directly to the frame. This gives her her 'fat body' which I really like--worthy of the Flying Cloud name. Definitely going to mull over what you were saying, Colin, about the additional supports. I misunderstood what you were suggesting to be a total de-boning of the original frame. I'm lucky enough to have a couple cousins who've rebuilt Airstreams as well as an uncle who's an engineer so I'm sure this will make for some good Thanksgiving table banter!

I'm definitely taking your advice, Cliff, about the Texas toast! I'm kicking myself for never using it before. Scrumtrulescent! And I will post some more photos to illustrate the above. Promise!

[calais66]

So what's been happening these past weeks? Holidays, work trips, bachelor parties, short days and not nearly enough time spent with the old aluminum lady. Which isn't to say that I've been totally slacking. In any case, here's an update--

As I continued to move aft-ward with the floor removal back in November I got a good look at the assembly of the step and the step itself. Basically (as you can see in the photos below) it's a thick wooden plank (somewhat rotten) held up by two of the aforementioned aluminum spreaders (very corroded) that attach the belly pan to the the frame. Not a recipe for long term success. Obviously the whole arrangement had to go, and go it did along with the section of belly pan to which it was bolted. The belly pan set up is constructed of one wide center sheet between two narrower sheets, so the good news is we only lost the outer sheet on the starboard side in the process. With the step removed phase two was hiring a welder to weld in the support for the new step as well as a gray water tank support rack in one of the aft bays, replacements for some of the damaged aluminum center spreaders and (after consulting Barry's thread) a center rail to help support the floor once it's in. Naturally, the only days it's rained here this winter were the days the welder was supposed to come which set us back a couple weeks. But this past Saturday all the frame mods went in with only a couple hitches not worth mentioning here.

With the new center spreaders in place, we proceeded to bolt the surviving belly pans to them. We're pretty happy with the result, and happy that we've given her rock hard abs...er...belly skins.

Next up: Building a new step (gonna be wood like the original), replacing the four corroded aluminum spreaders around the wheel wells, replacing the front window and FINALLY getting all these beautiful forward plywood floor segments I've been cutting and sealing in their new home. Then the gray water tank, then the tank vent stack, then the rear floor, then the new LP system, then the appliances, then the electrical, then the insulation, then the inner skins, then the...the...well everything else and all the stuff I forgot in between. It's a good, exciting kind of yikes, but it's a yikes nonetheless.

Thanks for hanging in there with us!
-Tigh

1. Step in place
2. Step out
3. Welding in the new floor supports
4. Shoring up the belly pan

[goshawks00]

Looking goo!! You might want to insulate then wire, it will make it easier if you ever have to make a change/add on/correction
.02
Barry

[calais66]

Some days, it's all about the small victories.

[KCN]

I hear that! Just keep moving forward...

[calais66]

After several missteps (rimshot!) finally got the new step built and installed. Turns out the welder welded the new bracket about 1.5" higher than the original was set, so my faithful reproduction was too high for the door to shut. I built a new step with a thinner (3/4") piece of wood and added some bracing under it to reinforce it. All sealed with Le Tonkinois Parquets, of course.

As the original was held in place by the spacers, just having the new step on the new bracket would create a gap at the sides which would've opened into the belly pan. So I took a couple salvaged spacers from around the wheel wells (had replacements fabricated out of thicker material, but that's another post), sanded off the corrosion and primed them. I then cut out their bottoms so they would fit over the new brackets and slid them in place (as seen in the photos below). The new assembly looks like the original and the door fits as intended. All in all, another learning experience!

[calais66]

So floor replacement is going smoothly (halfway there) and I'm about to order a grey water tank from VTS to go in under the subfloor. Keeping in mind the fittings on the tank are 1 1/2", does anyone have any suggestions on dump valves? Also, I'd like to install the valve in a hatch in the belly pan so as to keep the original silhouette intact, so the smaller the valve the better. Any insight is appreciated, thanks!

[calais66]

The subfloor so far...

[Coloradobus]

Calais 66
Great, another 15 panel Flying Cloud!! We own 7099. It's a project in waiting. Need to finish our Around the World Overlander which was a rotted disaster with one wheel in the landfill. Can't wait to start. Great progress and photos. Ours has a bent axle resulting from an axle U -boot snapping.

[calais66]

Very cool! Only 7 trailers between our FCs. I'm all about 15 Panel Fever. I started a 15 panel registry the other day here:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122888

Add yours to the list! Love to see some photos.

[calais66]

Well, I've obviously been slacking on updating this thread, but things have been progressing steadily albeit slowly (remember, for the most part I'm a one man band!). Short days and full weekends have definitely slowed the process. In that time I've hit a couple milestones, but none more unexpected than finding a new front window frame and glass! Really makes the trailer look like she's supposed to. Turns out these are the same windows used on Spartans and other trailer of the era and were not made by Hehr (Airflite, I think?). In any case expanding the search outside Airstream specifically was the key. For the time being it's held in by a couple clecos to be put in in permanently once it's time for the ceiling panel (which we dropped and removed) to go back in. But wait, there's more...