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MarkR · 12-02-2005, 01:58 AM

Hi, We’re doing the Full Monty (in slow motion). The good news is we finally got the shell off. Now I’m starting to worry about, and need to settle on a Floor Plan.

I would like to receive feedback on the 4 schemes I have attached. I would like to hear opinions about the livability of the plans but I am more interested in finding out about “constructability” and system functionality issues. We are okay w/ a minimum toilet/shower w/sink being in the kitchen. And we want to sleep 4 people comfortably.

Sorry about the “sketchiness” of the . . . sketches. If you click on the image it should be large enough to read.
Thanks,
Mark
(I guess the sketches don't show up in the post, you will have to click on the attachments below the photo)

3Ms75Argosy · 12-02-2005, 04:04 AM

can you sketch my dreams? Great drawings! My 2c - (worth less in redemption!)

In ideas b-d, the hanging closet over the end of the bed is a concern. With cloths on it, would that get kind of clautiphobic? Will turning in bed knock the clothes off? I think the bed in b-d may be kind of small, how tall are all of you? I like the curved dinnette in front. Here's some pics that someone did with Iowa Boys in Ca.
http://flyingcloud.blogs.com/flying_.../05/index.html

also
http://iowaboys.com/vnoy/DSCN1208.JPG

I like all of them for various reasons, can you refresh us on your family needs?
Marc

66Overlander · 12-02-2005, 05:06 AM

All your floorplans look nice (not sure which one I prefer) and are very detailed, but I've made one small observation. In all cases you have placed your plumbing vents against an outside wall. This will cause them to be low on the side of the trailer where they poke thru the roof. If you look at where Airstream typically put them, the are more inboard so that the vents end up higher on the roof.

MarkR · 12-02-2005, 07:12 AM

There are 6 of us (4 children) but they are spread out from 5-16 (plus us 2 old folks). When we all go somewhere together we'll be okay with a Tent Annex, otherwise the whole trailer will be dedicated to sleeping/beds. Yes the back bed will feel a little claustrophobic with clothes hanging over one end (theoretically your feet) but those schemes didn't have any closet/hang up space and I would have to give up galley space which is a higher priority . . . great websites and picture, thanks.

Oh the plumbing vent . . . didn't even think about that (exactly the kind of info I want/need). Those vents shown are all for the refrigerator - which admittedly I don't know what the need is other than it seems like I always see a duct or chase above undercounter refrigerators and I assume it's req'd for combustible air (?). I figured they'd curve w/the ceiling a little to get to the vent cap thing.

Thanks for looking and for the input.
Mark

Bob Thompson · 12-02-2005, 09:47 AM

Just a few thoughts.

a. In scheme "A" it appears you have a conflict between the refrig and the
wheel well, assuming you are using an undercounter refrig.
b. I think a single wet shower/commode space would become annoying quickly. We used to have a wet bath in our Scamp trailer and didn't like it.
c. You might try a scheme where the commode is on one side the trailer and shower on the other, opposite from each other.
d. I would try to use a standard mattress like a full mattress (54"x75"). This will give you many more possibilities to find a confortable one.
e. If you build a shower with a small seat area, the seat area can go above the wheel well.

What is the overall clear inside dimension in length and width? What is the dimension from the back wall to where the wheel wells start?

MarkR · 12-02-2005, 11:06 AM

Bob, thanks for the comments. If I gave up on 3 sleeping spots I could solve most all of the design problems . . . or we could get a longer trailer, but we really like the Flying Cloud length for lots of other reasons. Anyway, I'll attach a pdf of the gutted trailer w/dimensions. The curves/corners are not exactly right (if anyone has the secret geometry I'd love to know). Also the section is not correct either - too arched at the top.

I will try a scheme where I start out w/one 54x75 mattress and design around that . . . I just know I'll end up with only two beds, unless we go for a bunk (which I was trying to avoid.

Thanks again for looking.
Mark

Bob Thompson · 12-03-2005, 11:32 AM

Here's some thoughts.....

safari57 · 12-03-2005, 12:52 PM

Wow, Mark, you are really getting into it now. Some of my thoughts:

if you can have the toilet away from a bed then when it's used during the night, when typically it would be, the others in the bed are not an audience. Hard to flush quietly in a trailer. If you can put a cupboard between it and the rear bed, even small, that has clothing in it to muffle noise it's bonus.
Side dinette's are nice but they need windows. When you sit down over a coffee, or for a meal at the table, generally it's because it's not the greatest outside, too cool, whatever. It's still nice to have windows.
The wheel wells were a pain to work around on mine. My toilet is right behind the drivers wheel well and I found a Sealand toilet with just the right height and small base that I could turn to fit into the space. It allowed me to use the space over the wheel well for part of the bathroom.
Keep in mind how your designs dictate where your grey and black waste tanks end up. Are you hanging them underneath or incorporating them into the unit? My grey is on the floor below the sink counter and my black is under the bed in back and comes right up under the toilet. I've lost a bit of storage but not that much.
I've put a small closet(very small) for the few hanging clothes we need but find it much easier to fold everything. It was easy to creat storage places for folded clothing.
Shower - I've built mine to be a wet bath but so far have not completed that and we may not. We've found that the campgrounds so far that we've been in all have showers and we just make it a criteria when we are staying for more than one night to ensure they have showers. It would be nice to have the option in the trailer but given best use of space .
I built the trailer with the thought that from time to time, even when camping, one of us may need a quiet place to grab an afternoon snooze without making use of the rest of the trailer a problem, thus the bed in back can be curtained off for some privacy.
We've had a lot of trailers in 37 years plus I spent my youth travelling with my parents in their trailers and built mine with useability in mind. With a decent awning you can add a lot of useable space to your trailer. Get a good awning. I've got something that was made locally and although it suits the trailer's retro look it's not the best one to have in inclement weather.

Barry

Bob Thompson · 12-03-2005, 10:40 PM

More thoughts:

59toaster · 12-04-2005, 08:36 AM

I like A. Its very similar to our 59 Caravaner (same size as your FC).

Bob pointed out most of the problems. With that many people you probably want a larger reefer. It has to sit on the floor. It cant mount over a wheel well or it will start having clearance issue on the curve of the wall.
That dictates the reefer needs to be where the desk is in plan A.

That location also will help offset the weight of the galley, bath and keep the weight side to side more even. Water heater and furnace need to be on Street side. You don't want them exhausting on the side where you will be setting up outside area. So that sore of makes a Curb side bath a little more sense so you can stick the water heater and furnace under the bed.

As for seating and We are 4 and we really like the Gaucho set up with table folding into the wall. We can get a "living room" feel and some floor space for the kids to play on once that table folds to the wall. Nobody is jammed into the corner seats except when the table is out. Its just like the living room sofa and the coach is wide enough for 4 to sit wide if a couple are kids.

Nix the dresser and go with a Wardrobe next to the reefer to maximize storage space. Partition part of Wardrobe into food pantry. Make the bed pull out into the dresser area gaucho style. Drawers under it or a flip up lid. Then you can get three kids on the rear bed and have storage for gear. Kid 4 on a bunk over bed.

Mom and dad on Front Gaucho or dinette. Gaucho will let you use a Futon mattress so it would be a more comfortable bed then a dinette with pieced together mattress. Gaucho also will allow for storage under it as well as water tank without being into foot area. Water tank really needs to be as far forward as possible. You don't want the weight to one side and you cant put it in the front corners because the outriggers wont take the weight. It needs to be sitting on the A area for balance. So think about how there will have to be a box under the front window. The other option is a custom tank under the floor. That presents a lot of other problems including concern about freezing if winter camping.

Flip the toilet to the rear. That will allow the headroom for a wet bath while minimizing floor space. Headroom over the toilet is not an issue because your sitting.

Here is a Caravanner link and you can see how close "A" is to a stock floor plan. I would nix the Caravanner vanity in favor of more storage space and a little more bath space. You are two steps from the galley sink so a vanity is not a big issue. Its nice for a couple because there is a divider and you can turn the rear into a dressing area for privacy. With 6 the larger bath may be a better solution so that you can dress in the bath. Divider might still be a good ide since you can make a "kids room" and the parents will have the living room after they go to bed.

http://www.vintageairstream.com/arch...ner/index.html

MarkR · 12-10-2005, 10:40 AM

Thanks for all comments, they have been very helpful.
This is "Scheme E", sort of giving up on the 3 sleeping areas, although there's a possibility for a bunk above back bed.
Can a refrigerator vent up to it's side, or does it have to be directly bhind for it to work properly? (and I assume I still need a lower vent for the frig, which can be directly behind it)
Also this is the heater I have and am thinking I want to use, are there any "issues" with this type of heater? I've never had it fired up, but it looks like it's "all there".
Thanks,
Mark
(remember you have to "click" on the FCSchemeE file to view it)

CaptainJones · 12-10-2005, 01:16 PM

Mark
I understand your indecision on a plan. Everything is a trade off in some way. I really like your latest plan for the front part and may steal some of it for my 51 Cloud. I am still thinking more of a gaucho or expandable bed of some sort for the rear. There are times when more floor space may be important and dedicating that much room to a good bed would be costly in floor space although I am sure more comfortable for the night.

66Overlander · 12-10-2005, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkR

This is "Scheme E", sort of giving up on the 3 sleeping areas, although there's a possibility for a bunk above back bed.
Can a refrigerator vent up to it's side, or does it have to be directly bhind for it to work properly? (and I assume I still need a lower vent for the frig, which can be directly behind it)

Mark,
Wow - I personally like this option best of all the one's you've published. That back bed will be hard to make with no corners easily exposed, but it may be worth it.

If you are getting a short fridge that would fit below the window, you could vent it directly out the side of the trailer (some of the newer bambi's do that), but because it's be below the window, you'd probably want to convert that window to a non-opening type to keep from sucking the exhaust (including carbon monoxide) back in the trailer. Even some of the exhaust might come back in the trailer if the door was open, depending upon wind conditions. You could also convert that window to be the fridge exhaust vent. That would allow a use of a larger fridge and would decrease the chance of exhaust coming in the trailer when the door was open. Finally, if sealed properly, I would think you probably could route that fridge exhaust upward just rearward of the window (but I'm no expert on these things, so check with a professional). That would allow the vent to go up on the roof, where there should be little to no chance of sucking the exhaust fumes back into the trailer thru the open door.

Finally, what if you just swapped the location of the fridge and bathroom? Then the fridge would not be below a window and the bath would have a window? The toilet would go just in front for the wheel well rather than just behind it?

Good luck! And keep up the fine work.

safari57 · 12-10-2005, 03:01 PM

Mark, that's a nice floor plan. Very functional. I really like the curved dinette. Provides for lots of seating capacity when needed and it suits the trailer.
Barry

3Ms75Argosy · 12-11-2005, 12:41 AM

but with children, can anyone who uses that type of heater chime in if it's surface gets hot? I'd be afraid of grilling the little ones if they touch it (or anyone else trying to get things out of the fridge).
Marc

47WeeWind · 12-11-2005, 01:38 AM

Ding ... dong... Heater! This vertical Day & Night tubular Panelray heater works by radiation from the center tube, which gets very hot to radiate successfully. There are five thin vertical rods around its open front half, but little hands can easily get through the 1-5/8" space between the rods to burn tiny fingers reaching for the warm red center core. OTOH, if you have successfully trained your children not to put their hands and fingers (or other body parts) on the stove top when it is being used to cook food, then that lesson should be transferable to the vertical heater. Somehow children of the late 40's and early 50's survived Airstreams without all becoming small fry.

One drawback of the heater is the 1' circular footprint (tubeprint?) it takes up from the floor to ceiling. This stand alone heater was phased out during the early 1950's in favor of a similar but flatter inset wall mounted unit that took up no floor space and freed up some valuable trailer real estate. You could gain a lot of closet storage space by using a modern short wall mounted heater instead of this tall tubular one.

I like the Olympic brand catalytic heaters myself, as they also radiate and eventually convect heat. Mine is mounted to the left inside the door on the vertical face of the galley counter end, where it radiates warmth on me when I'm sitting opposite in my front dinette. Catalytics are very (99%) fuel efficient, but I always open two vents slightly to keep fresh air circulating.

The vertical Day and Night heater is reported to be quite effective if not particularly efficient. The outside cover rotates so the radiation can be directed, a feature that will not be particularly effective from the cove in which you have placed this heater. It's a great vintage touch, but I think you could find a more space and fuel efficient heater to use in your trailer.

66Overlander · 12-11-2005, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 65GT

There's another topic here somewhere on fridge vents and I think the consensus was as straight up as possible and directly in-line. The more you make bends the more you slow down the natural flow and the warmer your fridge runs. I hope that helps...

You know . . . that's a good point. Those ammonia fridges aren't the most effective to begin with. I can see how keeing the best air flow past the combustion area would be important to keep them operating at their peak efficiency. I'll have to remember this if I ever get brave enough to tackle a "get and redo" project.

MarkR · 12-11-2005, 10:30 PM

I guess I should read up (search topic in forum) on refrigerators, I don't even know what an ammonia fridge is? I think I want a Norcold N400 (new) (I like the size), is that an ammonia fridge? The other thought is to turn the window above the fridge into a vent . . . or better yet to move the window to the bathroom (flipping the bath and the fridge would put a "tall" wall at the door which I don't want).

Still am interested in hearing from someone who actually uses the floor to ceiling "panelray" heater. We probably won't need it much - up in the air on that one.

Thanks all for "chiming in", I'm "loose" at this point, not committed or "married" to any scheme yet, so I'm interested in any input I can get.
Mark

66Overlander · 12-12-2005, 05:07 AM

Here I go regurgitating what I have heard but do not totally understand either. RV refrigerators are an "absorption type" (i.e. no compressor) which use some type of ammonia as the "coolant", where a household fridge instead has a compressor and uses a chlorofluorocarbon "coolant" (e.g. Freon).

A-Merry-Can · 12-12-2005, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkR

Thanks for all comments, they have been very helpful.
This is "Scheme E", sort of giving up on the 3 sleeping areas, although there's a possibility for a bunk above back bed...

sorry to chime in late as well. i really like "E". it's nice to see a more organic flow to the furniture, beyond just rounded corners. i think i'll revisit my plan this week.

are you planning on putting in a tv? i am thinking about layout on the front of my trailer as more of a living room, with an added table for eating, rather than a permanent table, to maximize floorspace. i guess with a permanent table area, you always have a place to play cards, bored games, etc... there's no right or wrong, i guess. ha!

how much space are you allowing for your toilet? i am going to have to go with a wet bath in the corner. i was thinking about having the seat part you sit on double as the toilet, but haven't thought too much more about that beyond the concept.

also, on the topic of venting for the bath, etc, i'll attach a pic of my trailer when i was taking everything apart. the vent for the waste tank was along the side of the wall, but inside, there's a curved plastic pipe that runs up to the top (to be concealed inside a cabinet), then bends to straight up, and through the roof. (that's the little black piece in the middle of the pic. i know it's kinda hard to make out.) i don't know if all the trailers had this kind of arangement. are you planning on addding a grey water tank? i have mounted a 27 gallon tank that was initially going to be a grey water, with the black above floor under the toilet, but sometimes wonder if it's worth all the effort to have 2 tanks in a 15 foot shell.