Senior Management Failures at AS

[DBinSD]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

Quality issues (home, boat, car, RV, whatever) derive from:



(1) Not enough competition

(2) Not enough lawsuits



Remove either of those two, and the quality will promptly skyrocket. Otherwise, there's simply no incentive.

A blower motor is not an issue?

Lawsuits are needed to improve quality? Seriously?

AS has not enough competition?

I fully disagree with all the above. Especially if you think lawsuits drive better quality, you are in fact part of the problem IMO.

Word of mouth is the best advertisement and the amount of return AS customers is unprecedented in the RV industry. Not to mention the amount still on the road.

[Len n Jeanne]

Question #1 for the mavens here-- is there a brand of RV that's been on the road for a long time with fewer quality issues than AS?

Question #2: What accounts for AS customers' brand loyalty?

Question #3: How long is the average AS on the road, vs. the average SOB?

Blacklab, I hear ya. After shelling out an exorbitant (to us) amount of money for Bambi the First, we had all kinds of things go wrong with it. Fortunately most were covered by the dealership's warranty. Bambi the Second continues the tradition of imperfections, but to a lesser extent.

I'm not sure the comparable for an RV is a car or truck. I think the comparables are other kinds of recreational equipment. Anyone here ever own a trouble-free swimming pool, summer cabin, boat, horse, tent camping equipment, or a small plane?

(I wouldn't know about the latter, just that someone else brought it up when I had this conversation with him.)

I'd love to see AS quality improve, and for the people who design them to live and travel in them for weeks at a time.

[pt.reyesfan]

You are correct. However, until a “Toyota” comes along and threatens Thor/ Airstream, they will not change. (I think this will happen. It is just a matter of time.)

[brick1]

My new International Serenity 28 doesn’t have any issues. And my dealer has been great. Service department was easy to deal with when I bought a new truck and needed the hitch re-set.
And I am picky...
brick

[Tim A.]

Originally Posted by blacklab

I hate the idea of spending $70,000+ on something with the assumption that it will have significant quality issues that I will have to waste countless hours and money to fix. There is nothing else in the marketplace like that---nothing.

My recommendation is don't buy it! You have already prepared yourself to be angry and disappointed. Because of the present demand, Airstream will not miss your lack of purchase.

Tim

[shadrick5]

Originally Posted by rmkrum

IMHO:

Because humans are not well adapted to deal with change. Airstream will not change long term habits that appear to still give them the profitable results they are currently enjoying. It's a typical short-sighted US company approach, based on satisfying shareholders instead of customers...

To go with Deming's methods, it requires a will to change, and the vision to see the possibility of huge improvement. It also requires spending the money to do it right the first time...on the front end!

The reason Toyota and most of the big successful Japanese companies are using his principles (heck, they think of him as a god...) is that they approach the business of doing business as an honorable war to be won at any cost. Market dominance is the basis of the campaign, and they are willing to work hard to achieve it.

That leads to a single-minded approach to achieving customer satisfaction, and is why Toyota, for example, is so successful. Heck, I own 5 of them at present...and have very few issues with any of them.

Doing the right thing first, best and always.

[streaminwild]

All they need to do, is have employees fix their screw-ups on their own time. This should only happen once. Not too many people like working for free, unless there's trouble at home.

[Hans627]

Originally Posted by blacklab

This post probably should be in a different AS forum, but I'm not sure which one, so I'll post it here, as this is the one I'm most familiar with.

My spouse and I have been and continue to be in the "looking" mode for our first RV trailer. We're both still working (too much) to really enjoy a trailer to warrant its purchase, but we do see that changing in the not-to-distant future. So, we're spending a bit more time looking at potential RV trailers, including AS, and particularly a 23' Flying Cloud.

What I find stunning, and inexplicable, is the common thread of quality issues with AS trailers. And, the recognition and acceptance that's just the way it is in the RV manufacturing world. It doesn't have to be that way and it should not be that way, with AS or others.

One of the key reasons that American car manufacturers transitioned from their awful quality control issues of the late 60's and into the 70's and 80's is that they all adopted the key components of the Toyota Production System (TPS) (a/k/a Lean Manufacturing) whose foundation was developed and inspired by Dr. Deming, an American. The design and manufacturing of American cars today is far superior to the dark days of the late 60's, 70's and 80's. TPS/Lean Manufacturing is the primary reason. And, TPS is the key reason that Toyota had its success in penetrating the world markets in such a relatively short time while also producing staggering amounts of positive cash flow, year after year after year.

I have studied both Dr. Deming and TPS, including visiting several Toyota production facilities. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that AS (and other RV manufacturers) couldn't benefit from TPS and dramatically improve their designs and their quality. And, here's the critical point: By doing so, their financial performance improves---it results in creating additional shareholder value, not less.

The negative financial impacts, to both AS and its Dealers, from their design defects and manufacturing quality issues are not insignificant. Why the Dealers put up with it and have not forced a change in how AS senior management does their job is a mystery.

The "bottom line" point is that AS/Thor could make more money--not less--if they were to institute (deeply, not just cosmetically) TPS or Lean Manufacturing (or something very similar). Perhaps they've tried to do so, and failed (obviously). But, that's not an excuse. Try it again, and this time, do not fail.

I hate the idea of spending $70,000+ on something with the assumption that it will have significant quality issues that I will have to waste countless hours and money to fix. There is nothing else in the marketplace like that---nothing.

And, the damnable point is that it does not have to be that way. The responsibility rests solely with the senior management of AS (and Thor). They can make the necessary changes---and make more money---so why don't they?

Cheers,
Bryan

Thanks for a nice write up. Just curious where you learned lean manufacturing?

Having spent most of my working career in the auto industry as a supplier I lived through the changes you mention.

As a supplier to Toyota and Honda I learned the principals of lean manufacturing (aka the Toyota Production System). And some of the lessons were difficult! But those principals work. If cars can be built, with all their complexity and options, using the lean manufacturing tools surely AS could do it if they had the will.

I have not toured the factory but would like to do so at some point. I've heard from others who have been there that they are beginning to adopt some of the lean manufacturing principals on the shop floor. Lean focuses on eliminating waste. Waste costs money. AS/Thor could put a lot of money to the bottom line, and improve quality, by adopting lean manufacturing!

[MWBishop]

I would never argue that overall quality in RVs comes anywhere close to that of modern cars. But not all Toyotas are perfect either - had an MR2 in the 90's that was nothing short of junk. Fact is it's just a roll of the dice with anything you buy.

[VTSafari]

AS/Thor and the RV industry in general are like Ford, GM, Chrysler before Deming/Toyota. They rejected Deming and his methods and continued to produce a "poor" quality product. Along comes Toyota and then they got on the Deming band wagon. Imagine how hard it would have been for a foreign car company to penetrate the auto market if Ford, GM, Chrysler hadn't rejected Deming and his methods. The US auto market would probably be significantly different today. The US auto manufacturers still have the stigma of not having the best quality....even if it is just perception. I think it is only a question when and not if someone builds RV's better. So AS/Thor can either follow or lead. An Airstream is like a 60's muscle car...cool, iconic, sexy and makes you feel good but imagine receiving a new car today with as many issues a car from that era had.

[Baby Zeppelin]

Despite some of the doom and gloom I'm reading in this thread we've had only a few minor issues with our Airstream, and most of those have not been with the unit itself, but with the vendor (such as Dometic) supplied parts. Those have been fixed, and will hopefully stay fixed.


We've got a little bitch list going of things that need correcting - currently missing one of the little black plastic caps that go over the screw heads on window latches and hinges, and our door is rubbing the awning. Would like to get one of the little wheels that ZipDee makes to prevent that.



Overall very minor issues.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by Len n Jeanne

Question #1 for the mavens here-- is there a brand of RV that's been on the road for a long time with fewer quality issues than AS?

Question #2: What accounts for AS customers' brand loyalty?

Question #3: How long is the average AS on the road, vs. the average SOB?
....

Each one of those questions by itself could constitute a separate thread, but here are a few observations:

#1: Advanced RV for one, and some other niche manufacturers. Advanced RV is a newer example so their documented track record (history) is limited, but they are expected to last a very long time by virtue of their engineering. VW is an older example. Their original campers are not without problems, but they are still on the road in massive numbers.

#2: No other large manufacturer has developed the same cache', at least, not with respect to trailers. VW buses have the cache', but theirs is a different market segment. The Westfalia dominates the #vanlife movement.

#3: The original VW buses are still very popular and are not without problems, but many of those still running are approaching 50 years old and still going strong (production began in 1950). GMC motorhomes, manufactured 1973-1978, are an example of another RV which attained a cult following (my husband and I seriously considered buying one but ultimately chose an Airstream Interstate). 12,921 were produced, and over 7,000 of those are currently listed in an international registry. Per Wiki, "Estimates suggest that at least 8,000 to 9,000 of the original production are still in running condition." That's an impressive live ratio for a motor vehicle lineage that is now 40 to 45 years old.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

One point to make: You *do* realize that Airstream has no connection at all to this forum and that the comments you make here have zero chance of making it back to them .... Even the "Airstream account" posts apparently are not from anybody actually employed by Airstream.

Bob

[LY007]

I don't know what goes on at AS HQ, but I feel fairly confident that upper management gets a daily financial snapshot report, and that one of the figures is the amount of money spent on warranty repairs yesterday, month-to-date, and year-to-date. I would assume that number is monitored closely, as it is money that directly diminishes the bottom line.

[Bobbo]

I bought my Airstream almost exactly a year ago. The long time users of this thread read a LOT of posts by me about problems with my Airstream. It was frustrating because it was in the shop more than it has been camped in. It still has more trips to the shop than trips to campgrounds, and more days in the shop than days camping, but, after looking at things in hindsight, only one problem was actually an Airstream problem.

The worst problem was a Dometic AC failure. Dometic had a bad batch of units, and I got one. Not Airstream's fault. Took the dealer a month to replace. Even then he did it wrong and required another trip to the dealer for him to fix his error. All of this was before I had even taken the trailer out camping the first time.

Most of the other issues I had were directly related to a poor dealer service department. Not Airstream's fault. The Dometic issue above was one, the recurring door latch problem below (while initially Airstream's fault) was another.

The only problem that I had that was actually Airstream's fault was the fact that the lug sticking out of the entry door's frame for the door to latch onto to lock closed was not quite long enough. That meant it had to be unscrewed about one turn for the door to close. The fact that that lug was loose meant that the rivets holding its lock nut to the door frame were taking all of the closing force, which finally sheared the rivets causing the lug to sag and the door would not latch closed at all. The first time, it took the dealer a month to figure out the problem. They just re-riveted the nut, so it recurred a month or so later. When I finally found the problem, myself, I got a 1/16" thick aluminum washer and put it behind the lug. Problem solved, never to recur.

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

Actually no. Like passenger cars, houses have come a tremendously long way in terms of quality - this is true of even cheap tract houses. Older houses were problematic in myriad ways. Newer ones... not so much. My husband and I built our house more than 8 years ago. When it was 7.5 years old, we elected to replace the entire A/C system, upgrading from "builder basic" which we decided was not worth repairing when we had a blower fan issue (we are in Houston TX, so the A/C systems become high mileage quickly). But other than that, we've barely changed a light bulb. I will be surprised if we have to do anything in the next 10 years other than re-paint the soffit and trim (the new A/C has a 10-year warranty).

Quality issues (home, boat, car, RV, whatever) derive from:

(1) Not enough competition
(2) Not enough lawsuits

Remove either of those two, and the quality will promptly skyrocket. Otherwise, there's simply no incentive.

If you sent a modern house down the road it would fall apart in half a mile.

[DMP54]

Hi Bryan (OP), You're hired! I want you on my team in a nanosecond- with your outlook on excellence, improved production through system change, and your research on a better way to do things. Seriously, you are an asset to your career, I am sure.
I am going to have to agree with TimA a little here, however. As you think about cutting back in your work life, perhaps RVing is not the way to go for you. You might find the frustration supersedes the fun/relaxation/pursuit of enjoyment you deserve in retirement. You might want to find an alternate way to enjoy camping or seeing our country.
There is room for improvement in every aspect of life (just ask my DH), and we need people like you who are dedicated to excellence. Just not sure trailer life is it in your instance
Enjoy looking! We got our first trailer (Flying Cloud) in 2015, and have had nothing but fun and relaxation since! We love the quality of our Airstream.
Pam

[75Bob]

I have a 70's Airstream and it's worth 1/2 the value of a 2018. I don't see any 1975 Toyota's out there at all, much less worth 1/2 the value of a new one! It's also well documented that the more bells and whistles you buy on any vehicle, the more problems you will run into. It's to bad that most of those components that malfunction are made in Asia (example, air bags or Bridgestone tires). Maybe you'd be better off in a Grey Wolf trailer or a Jayco.

[blacklab]

Pam,

Thanks. I was initially a skeptical and reluctant learner of Deming/TPS/Lean. My first visit to a Toyota manufacturing plant came only after hours of study, reading, and in-depth analysis of their financials, etc. I had spent hours watching videos of some of Dr. Deming's seminars and had begun to get past the abstract into concrete applications, but it wasn't until I visited the Toyota plant in Japan and watched it all "in action" that I really started to understand its potential for "continuous improvement" in any situation. Yet, the frequent response is "it can't work here, because our industry is different." Wrong. It can work anywhere, and most certainly in the RV industry.

My spouse and I, despite too much work, do get out to enjoy the outdoors. We both love to fly fish and camp, and have done so in many places around the country. But, it is time to replace our tent camping with a trailer.

I appreciate your wise caution about the realities of owning and using an RV, but I think we're prepared to deal with those realities, as I don't see a better alternative. Yes, we could stay in lodges, etc. But, it just ain't the same as being at a campsite!

Cheers,
Bryan

[AlinCal]

Originally Posted by DMP54

Hi Bryan (OP), You're hired! I want you on my team in a nanosecond- with your outlook on excellence, improved production through system change, and your research on a better way to do things. Seriously, you are an asset to your career, I am sure.
I am going to have to agree with TimA a little here, however. As you think about cutting back in your work life, perhaps RVing is not the way to go for you. You might find the frustration supersedes the fun/relaxation/pursuit of enjoyment you deserve in retirement. You might want to find an alternate way to enjoy camping or seeing our country.
There is room for improvement in every aspect of life (just ask my DH), and we need people like you who are dedicated to excellence. Just not sure trailer life is it in your instance
Enjoy looking! We got our first trailer (Flying Cloud) in 2015, and have had nothing but fun and relaxation since! We love the quality of our Airstream.
Pam

Maybe it's the color of his Lab?
Well maybe not, we have a black Lab and love our Airstreams, wife wants me to par down but I don't want to loose either one.
The new one is 7 years old and in perfect working order and the other 27 years young also in perfect working order and ready to camp today.