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Old 05-19-2018, 11:15 PM   #1
TDA
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23 vs 25?????

We have narrowed our choices for a possible new rivet wagon to the Flying Cloud 23FB or 25FB. We have been towing a short non-AS trailer for over 20 years- it's floor plan is identical to the 23D (CB), but shorter. We are excited about moving up to an AS, especially one with a more roomy restroom and a full RV queen bed.
We do a lot of boondocking, as well as much mountain driving. Our tow vehicle, a diesel F350, handles our current trailer effortlessly, and would have no problem with either the 23 or 25. But we are used to fitting into small National Park sites with ease, cruising the occasional log road to some lonely lake, as well as highway towing all day without feeling like we are dragging a big barge.

Based on the specs, the 23FB's exterior dimensions and towability would be pretty much perfect. But it has some interior drawbacks for us (small fridge, small waste tanks, small "living area")

The 25FB is pretty much perfect in those areas and more. But its greater width, length and weight give me pause- it seems like it may pose more headaches with campsite size, towing effort (for me, not the truck), and rear overhang. We have looked at both in person, and are still undecided. We would love to hear from folks with experience with either size (or both)- how far apart are these two trailers with regard to the above criteria?

I have read the entire 23D thread; enjoyed it, learned a lot, but nothing there or elsewhere has helped resolve the "is it too dang big for folks like us" question regarding the 25. I have not found anything like a 25 thread. Any suggestions, short of renting one of each?
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Old 05-19-2018, 11:26 PM   #2
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I sure do like your idea of renting one! Well worth the trouble vs taking a big financial hit if purchasing new. Which brings up the often discussed option of buying lightly used when you do decide on which size suits you best.

Others will chime in I’m sure. Those that have had both size trailers will be the most helpful for comparison purposes though they might not camp like you do.
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Old 05-20-2018, 05:59 AM   #3
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Ok so here is my thoughts as a 23D owner

23’ Narrow body vs 25’ wide body
23’ has smaller tanks than 25’. (We can go a week in our 23’ before we have to dump)
25’ has more room, 23’ fit in smaller places
Both will tow like a dream
25’ has preferred end dinette 23FB has side dinette
23 ha 5cu’ fridge 25 has 7cu’ fridge

I suggest you go to a dealer that has both in stock (leave check book at home) and spend the day in both of them come home and sleep on it.

Either unit will serve you well
We love our 23d for its size and ease of maneuvering, but there are times ( long rainy days) that a 25 would be nice.
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Old 05-20-2018, 06:42 AM   #4
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If you want an RV queen-sized bed, that moves you to the 25 footer, unless you're considering the 23FB. Even it isn't a perfect solution, because it's really difficult to walk around the wall side of it due to wall curvature. I have a 25 footer, and it is big, wide and heavy. Experienced RVers pull the 25 or longer and don't break a sweat. But that's not me. I preferred the 23D, but we couldn't get past the 48" narrow bed. Other than that, the 23 is a winner.

If I had it to do over, I'd probably have chosen a 19 or 20 footer and accepted the narrow bed to get a lighter and shorter trailer. But I do like the dinette by the big front windows, and the long lounge!

There is no perfect solution.
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Old 05-20-2018, 06:46 AM   #5
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We have a 23FB now and like it very much. There’s no way I can fit in a corner bed, and I’m not converting a dinette every night to sleep at the other end if the trailer from my lovely wife.
So, I agree with your choices. However, we don’t spend months in it. We still do weeks. So it seems like there’s plenty of room. We’re outside most of the time anyway. The side dinette works fine for us, but we have the older 23FB that isn’t U shaped. I’m not sure I would like the U shaped as well.
We’ve found the tanks on the 23FB large enough to go a week also. I the the 23CB has smaller tanks.
For more serious boondocking though, I think you’ll need to lift the 23FB. We went to 15” tires from the 14”s, and I still think I need the 3” lift. Not sure if you’ll need to do that with a 25FB with 16” tires.
I can think of only one spot in many years of camping that a 23 fit, that a 25 may not have fit.
Another consideration. If I were ever to start moving to more and more month long trips, I might consider a 27. The queen bed runs north south vs east west. We can get in and out ok, but north south would be easier for sure.
But then you’re looking at pulling an even bigger trailer though the boonies.
Hope this helped a little. We are just starting to travel with a 35 lb dog. Before that it’s just been the two of us.
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Old 05-20-2018, 07:09 AM   #6
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We went from a 22 sport to a 25 last year (we got the flying cloud rear bed/twin).

Based on our limited national park camping experience, there are parks that are just REALLY SMALL like Signal Mountain in the Tetons where we struggled to get our 22 parked, and bigger variety parks like Madison in Yellowstone. For the REALLY SMALL parks, you would have problems with either the 23 or 25. For other parks it really won't make much difference in my opinion. So my point here is that IF getting into the REALLY SMALL campgrounds in highly important to you then either option is unsatisfactory and you should look at the 19 or 20.

But if you are OK with the 23/25 size, then I have some opinions for your consideration.

1-Limiting factors. For boondocks camping water capacity is the primary limiting factor.

2-Food storage. We tend to prefer using coolers for boondocks trips as we bring frozen meat on dry ice in 1, and lots of produce on water ice in another. We cook every meal. If your style is different you might place greater importance on the larger refrigerator in the 25.

3-The crawl-over. Our 22 sport had a nice roomy bed. But the person against the curved side had to do the crawl-over to use the restroom at night. We for sure wanted to eliminate this problem in our new trailer. This is why we went with twin beds. In the 25 (but not the 27) the queen bed goesacross the trailer, but the twins are front to back. Big problem with the queen is that there are overhead lockers on the end. I hit my head really hard testing the walk-around bed at the dealer. Decided this was a safety problem I didn't want. If we had not been OK with the twin beds (which we like for other reasons I will get to below) we would have gotten a 27.

4-The outdoor storage differences between models. Please look in great detail at how the outdoor storage differs on the 23, the 25 with beds in front, and then look at the 25 twin rear bed. See that HUGE storage locker outside on the 25 RBT? It spans across the entire back of the trailer and essentially is as tall as the platform that holds the beds. This is great for our stepladder, outdoor table, 2 milk crates with tools, and lighter fluids, tool bag, charcoal, fireplace tongs, and bug spray. So nice to keep this all in the trailer and not have to bring in the truck for each trip.

5-Ventilation. From what I hear from Moosetags, one of the primary reasons they disliked the 23 FB enough to swap it back for a 25 was the lack of the small vent fans in the shower and bathroom. These little 5 inch round fans do a great job of venting steam from the shower. But more importantly for us we find that on damp days, or if we are running the furnace (propane generates water vapor) that it is essential to have this open to keep the trailer from getting clammy. The fan doesn't even need to be running; just the vent open is adequate. Since it is right over the shower, not a problem if it is raining outside.

6-Kitchen layout. The cooktop and refrigerator area on the 25 is in no way blocked when someone is walking through the trailer or sitting at the table. This is safer for the cook and makes it easier for prep, cooking, and cleanup. On the 23 my understanding is that the refrigerator door swing can be in the way of someone at the table. The narrower aisle means that if someone is at the stove top that there may not be room for someone (or something like your dog) to get behind you.

7-That window by the table. On the 23, even though there are 2 windows by the table, it is my understanding that you cannot have the window next to the door open. Having that open prevents you from opening up the door and using it as only a screen door.
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Old 05-20-2018, 07:16 AM   #7
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We went from a 20' to a 25' rear twin and never looked back. We still fit in all the National Parks, Forestry Service, etc. sites we fit in before.

Piggy Bank's #4 is key for us. The front twin also has the big storage (up front) but access is hampered by the LP tanks.
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Old 05-20-2018, 07:29 AM   #8
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We are in a similar situation. We rented a 25 foot from Haydocy Airstream but it was 8500 pounds and although we traveled 1000 miles with it, found it rather large. The configuration of the 23 is not good for us. We also want a large bed. We have been looking at the Bowlus (yes I know how much more expensive it is). It can come with a King size bed (shaped slightly differently) with a lounge and separate dining area. The benefit is that it weighs under 3000 pounds and can be pushed into a spot by hand using the tow wheel. It is just under 23 feet and does not seem to have the quality control issues of Airstream (nor should it at a minimum of $137,000.00). With some slight modification I think I can store it in my garage so I won't have to pay $200.00+ per month for storage. Spoke with the owner about repairs and maintenance and have still not got my head around that issue.
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Old 05-20-2018, 07:59 AM   #9
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We got the 23FB, and with one exception, we think it is perfect. The exception is we don't like the design of the side dinette. We are making do with it, but I am considering making the table top a little narrower so we can slide into the seats easier.

That being said, I think the 23FB is a good compromise. I have heard it said that being 8' in width makes it the largest of the small Airstreams. The next Airstream up in size is 8.5' in width. Having tandem axles makes it the smallest of the big Airstreams. The next Airstream down in size only has a single axle. I like the walk around queen size bed, but my wife has to be the one to sleep on that side. At my height, I would never be able to navigate walking on that side of the bed.

Having never even seen a 25' model, I can't compare the two, but we are satisfied with our choice.
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Old 05-20-2018, 08:07 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phil1ben View Post
We rented a 25 foot from Haydocy Airstream but it was 8500 pounds and although we traveled 1000 miles with it, found it rather large.
The GVWR on the 25' models is ~7300 lbs., if that matters.
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Old 05-20-2018, 08:07 AM   #11
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I camp with 3 different persons that have 3 different 25 foot models. One with the corner bed ; one with front and one with rear bed, all queens. I have front queen with rear dinette (had). I have converted to twin beds and cut table down to accommodate a swivel recliner. Two of those mentioned have converted to same layout as mine and do a lot of boondocking. No lift, but 16 inch tires. The one change I would do would be an Eddie Bower for the rear entry lift door.
Just thoughts and ideas. As an added note, we went from a 30 to a 25.
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Old 05-20-2018, 08:39 AM   #12
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Go to an Airstream rally near you and knock on doors. Ask the folks what they like and don't like.
Look at the rally sign up sheets here, and PM some of those people.
I had a nice couple contact me before Alumilina and they were fun to show around.
You'll see trailers in real world conditions, not at trade shows where everything has flowers and wine glasses.
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Old 05-20-2018, 09:06 AM   #13
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Greetings from the Florida Panhandle

We are somewhat experienced Airstream campers (12 years/1,900) nights. We have extensive experience with a 25FB and a 23FB. We started with a 25FB, we downsized to a 23FB, and went back to a 25FB.

Here are our observations and personal experience with both of these Airstream models.

We purchased a brand new 2005 Safari 25FB. We camped and traveled extensively in this Airstream for eight years. we camped in many National Park and National Forest campsites, and never ran into any issues with the 25FB fitting into a campsite.

We traded the 25FB for a 23FB in 2012. We had decided that we wanted to downsize. We did about 150 nights in the 23FB. We found that the 23FB was a great camper, but there were a couple of issues that were less than desirable.

The six inch narrower interior did make a noticeable difference as the six inches were out of the middle of the trailer. The 5 cubic foot one door refrigerator did not meet our needs as well as the larger unit in the 25FB. The single unit bathroom in the 23FB was not as accommodating as the separate shower in the 25FB. The single thing that we liked least about the 23FB was the somewhat puny 18 gallon black tank capacity vs. the 39 gallon black tank in the 25FB. This is the issue that most significantly impacted our camping style.

After a year of extensive use of our 23FB (150 nights), we decided to go back to a 25FB. We traded for a 2015 25FB. We are very happy with this decision. We are now 350 nights into our new 25FB.

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Old 05-20-2018, 09:22 AM   #14
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Another 23D owner

Currently Have a 2017 Int. Serenity 23D and love it. We will probably keep it when we add number 2. It will be a Int. Serenity 25 RBT. The rear bed (Twin or Queen) Has some advantages over FB IMHO. Twin has GREAT storage inside and out. Also has a very open feel to it as you can be at dinette and see all the way to back window. We took 2 years of looking and spent lots of time in many models at many dealers. Take your time. It is a big purchase and it is nice to not have to many regrets after delivery. We like the light interior of the Serenity, but flying cloud is more popular. Either way, both very nice.
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Old 05-20-2018, 09:28 AM   #15
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Keep yours eyes open for either model used and whatever comes along buy it and go camping, if you feel like the other one would suit you better then watch for one of those to come up for sale or buy a new one.
Sorta how we have done it, wife wanted bigger and I wanted smaller for the ease of it all so we started with (and can't seem to let go) an older 25 that we really enjoy other than the same issues you describe so we recently added a 19 that we both like but agree that a 23fb would be our perfect trailer. Going to use the 19 for a while though.
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Old 05-20-2018, 09:33 AM   #16
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All great points. But I'll also add one that is in consideration of the trailer with your tow vehicle. Your F350 is not exactly small, nor maneuverable relative to just about every other tow vehicle out there on account of the wheelbase.

If you're serious about getting into smaller sites, the 23' might be a balance for more maneuverability.

But then, why tow a relatively smaller trailer with a behemoth of a tow vehicle? For that, I'd say get a trailer that is commensurate with the TV. And get all the benefits mentioned above from the incrementally larger trailer.

Neither will boondock perhaps the way you're perhaps imagining, as they both have pretty low ground clearance that can and will drag rear ends. Especially in regards to the F350. May warrant a lift of the trailer.

I have a shorter TV with a lifted 28'. I feel absolutely comfortable squeezing in about anything because of the agility of my TV. I've been in sites that rangers were amazed I was able to maneuver into, as they've seen many a truck fail to get in on account of curbing, even with shorter trailers (one ranger was a big rig driver in a previous occupation). Point is, I think you'll be limited more by the F350, than any difference between the 23 and 25.

For that, 25 would be my vote.
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Old 05-20-2018, 10:24 AM   #17
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The 23FB is the best solution to get in around and through the fun places around this country. However, a person who needs a 1 ton to tow is not a little solution person. You may be budget constrained, but making do with the challenge of getting a 1 ton in, around, and through has you at a disadvantage.

Therefore, accept that reality and look seriously at the 27. It gets you a queen walk around and the features you seem to be lusting to have. The end toilet area is missing from the line until you get to the 33. Likely a bridge too far.

Now, go to that large inventory dealer. Spend time in the 23FB. It has it all in a very comfortable package. Biggest tankage in the 23 line, two closets, an efficient galley with stove, oven, microwave, pantry and dinette for more work surface. Bad choice if you hate touching someone when you pass in the aisle, can't share the get up at night time, or don't feel comfortable in the dinette. Note, the mattress is easily replaced with full size no curve corner queen. If you can't ----

Check out the 26U as it has an integrated side toilet/shower and the front dinette configuration. Worth your consideration.

Also, back up and look into the AS alternatives like the Oliver. You may find a solution that hits your mark.

8'-5" won't fit in an 8'-4" site ..... but it's not likely you will really have that issue. What is true is that a close call is a miss with the narrow coach and a hit with the wide one. Where we find the real advantage is turning radius in tight parking area. Turning around on a narrow road beats backing up for a half mile. A u-turn in a parking lot beats backing out. Staying in a tent site beats driving on to the next park.

TV - the elephant in your plan. TV choice should really be targeted at most use. If you need the 1 Ton for day to day, then no change is appropriate. Same if your travel/camp requirements load it out to max payload. However, if you can consider an alternative, a 4000lb, 120" wheelbase, low COG and short overhang vehicle might be a much better long term choice to consider.

The AH of the 23 is the low hang of the dump valves.
The AH of the 25/26 is the heavy tongue weight - width if that maters.

One final point to consider. If you can deal with a corner bed and a single axle, look at the FC20. Lots of galley counter space and the dinette is more comfortable, because the wheel well does not conflict.

All a compromise. Your budget (used?), your coach (investigate all), your choice (best part), your smile (the result) ..... good luck! Pat
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Old 05-20-2018, 10:51 AM   #18
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Wow- thanks for all of the replies! I figured we weren't the only ones who had been at the 23/25 threshold.
We are VERY set on the front bedroom (if we choose 23') after 20+ years in our narrow corner bed and bath arrangement. In the 25, either FB or RB would work, but we are in love with the FB's "vista dome" rear living area!
I had not considered the difference in ground clearance between 23 and 25 related to tire/wheel size. Ground clearance is not listed in the AS specs, so I'd better bring a tape measure to the dealer next time! As for the TV, we are committed to F350s (have 2) because we use them for other things, including towing a large flatbed trailer for moving tractors, hay, etc. Early in my career I drove fire engines, so the vehicle size and fuel type are pretty "natural" for me. But one of the main things I am trying to avoid is the "heavy feel" of that flatbed hauling a tractor down the road- at some point, that would cross the line from recreation to "work!" The 25FB's GVWR (7300lbs) isn't far from the total wt. of said flatbed carrying our 50hp tractor!
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Old 05-20-2018, 11:29 AM   #19
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After 2 years and approx 90 nights in our 23fb we switched to a 27fb. We did love our 23 but after spending several trips with some pretty severe weather the dinette sitting area became very uncomfortable. We did like the separate bathroom but how the toilet is designed to accommodate the tank my feet barely touch the round and I’m 5’10.
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Old 05-20-2018, 11:41 AM   #20
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The low COG of the AS is not the same feel as a tractor on a flat bed, so that objective is aced with any of your choices. But the wind effect will be amplified as you likely know from towing your SOB. Do your research on the hitch and distance from ball to axle and you can mitigate that issue.

Work vs recreation ...... one simple caution. Stay focused on attentive driving when you tow your toy. Shorten the day if your trip feels too much like work. Do not assume that any rig is safe without your complete and active attention. Bet as a fire engine driver, that's wasted effort preaching to the choir, but still worth a rethink.

There is another issue you might add to your mix. The older coaches were not as wide. Some research there may be to your advantage. An off-road trailer might well be a custom. A back road coach may just require close attention to clearance, slow travel and attentive maintenance. A 3" lift is done by many and custom blocks should not be excluded. Note, clearance is less an axle issue and more for tankage and plumbing.

One more. The late model 23s have 12in brakes. The early ones had 10in. Either resolved by installing disks and we don't have an issue with the 10s, but it is something to consider. As in lots and lots to consider. Pat

Edit - Late model coach, most if not all models, will have firm cushions. Older will have softer cushions. Plan on upgrading foam if you go for an older rig. You will be much more comfortable. Also, a consideration when trying out a coach for consideration.
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