20-footers

[OTRA15]

Thanks Bob, you said it, a fine day, and inspiring to hook up the trailer and be on the road.

Hmmmm . . .

[tincruiser]

First post on Airforums as I am in the market for my first AS. After having done a lot of research, dealer visits and now reading all 148 pages of this thread, I am pretty set on starting out with the FC20. Especially, as most of my stays will likely be in state or national parks.

This thread has been a goldmine if information and I just wanted to thank each and everyone of you who has contributed. I feel smarter and wiser and it’s because of your contribution here.


Here are my first questions:

Buying new, it sounds like the critical upgrade before you leave the lot are the rear and street side awnings. Most other things such as batteries, solar, tire upgrades are often handled better aftermarket. Is that correct?

Regarding the TV, I would love to hear what non-truck options have been successful. This vehicle will be my daily driver. I imagine something with no less than 6000# towing capacity. But would love to hear what SUVs are solid and reliable as TVs for an FC20.

It’s hauling a generator that seems to almost mandate a truck with a bed. Are there any other big trade offs between the truck and suv choice?



I’ve been a life long Jeep guy, so the biggest compromise I face is giving up my Wrangler! Again, thanks for this wealth of valuable info and advice.

Rob

[OTRA15]

Welcome, Rob, to the forum and this thread! The awnings can also be added later, like the other items, depending on distance to dealer and travel plans etc.. Waiting on all might make sense if you are unsure about the 20’ and might want to go longer soon.

We tow with the Ford Transit van shown a few posts back. If you search in the blue box above for “OTRA15 van tow vehicle” you will see a post about the details. I can find it later but I am on the road now. That new search box works great BTW, as it is powered by Google to search only this forum. The old search function was mediocre so ignore old comments about it IMO.

We have a Yamaha 1000 watt propane gen which is easy and safe to carry but will not power the AC.

More later when I get back home.

Lots to learn, but it sure is fun!

Happy Trails . . .

Peter

[OTRA15]

PS -- Rob, you may have already checked out the forums for tow vehicles and generators, but FYI here they are:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463/
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f448/

Not sure how wide a net you want to cast, but there is plenty of info on other threads and forums, to say the least! If you are open to wide-ranging feedback from owners of larger AS, you could reply, or start new threads, in those other forums. You will learn a lot there, but sometimes the discussions can go pretty far afield, which fortunately tends not to happen here IMO.

Let me know what additional info you would like about our van and generator setups.

Peter

[switz]

We carry a 2,000 watt Honda generator that has had a GenConnex propane conversion. We put it inside the back area of our 2007 Mercedes ML320 CDI diesel when towing our 23D.

We connect the generator to the grill port by the front hitch. We retrofitted a 120Vac shore power inlet connector above the grill propane connection and a true relay based transfer switch for the two power inlet points under the dinette street side seat..

Our solar conversion included a 300 amp-hour lithium battery with a Magnum hybrid MSH-3012 inverter that can draw the necessary in-rush current for starting the air conditioner from the battery. The 2,000 watt Honda can then run the air conditioner as a nearly full capacity load (about 14.5 amps of the 16 or so allowed).

[MaineStreamer]

If you are shopping for a Honda EU2000 generator and want it to run on propane, you can buy the converted generator direct from GenConnex and save money. I learned that when I brought two new Honda's to GenConnex last April for conversion and learned that buying directly from them is less expensive than buying elsewhere, even on sale, and doing the conversion separately.

[switz]

We had the pair of Honda 3000 watt generators for several years (early 2014) before finding the Propane conversion (2016). The impetus was acquiring our 2015 23D in 2016 and towing it with the Mercedes ML320 CDI. We did not want to carry a gasoline can inside the car or have gasoline vapors coming from the generator.

We have been known to carry a spare propane tank in the car if we expect a lot of propane usage.

[tincruiser]

A spare 30 Switz?

Here is another question: In general, both new used inventory FC20’s seem scarce compared to other Flying Cloud models. Is this due to limited production or the fact that the model is popular and 20footers hold onto their Airstreams?

[CruizinDux]

Originally Posted by tincruiser

A spare 30 Switz?

Here is another question: In general, both new used inventory FC20’s seem scarce compared to other Flying Cloud models. Is this due to limited production or the fact that the model is popular and 20footers hold onto their Airstreams?

Tincruiser, our original plan was to be a used 20and so started tracking them on AF about a year out. I have no idea of the production numbers but based how many I've seen in camp or on the road (0) I suspect it's lower production. There are a lot of 19's and 22's that for many are a better fit than the 20's.

To make it a short story, we were at the dealer on one weekend and only only 20 and was a way over priced trade in. The next week my wife had one of those if you build it they will come, checked the locall dealer and found a new 2014 that wasn't there last week.

After discussion it my conclusion was 1) they're rare used, 2) always on the opposite coast 3) an there fore hard to inspect,flights, escrow's etc. We decided to buy new and it just happened to be local. No traveling across country to inspect...no escrow and no titling issue. Done....hit the road....oops We had to buy a new TV as the Volvo XC could not even pull it to storage. Those two weeks was a flurry. Easy to say but bite the bullet and buy new or if used, at least reasonably local from a dealer.

Bob

[CruizinDux]

TinCruiser, congratulations on your selection and joining this thread. Our 20 fits our needs perfectly and I hope yours does as well. Certainly there are a few minuses, but we just love the layout....many ++++'s


[Buying new, it sounds like the critical upgrade before you leave the lot are the rear and street side awnings. Most other things such as batteries, solar, tire upgrades are often handled better aftermarket. Is that correct?]

Keep reading as I think the tire discussion will offer a different path and likely your OEM equipment is that other path (GYE’s as OEM vs the older GYM). They’re new and time will tell, but the GYE’s look very promising with at least 1 20’r contributor having converted and many folks with other models. Personally I’ll either go with the 15” GYE’s or the 15" Nokians, but at any rate not opt for the new 16” rimes and Mich Defs. Personally I just can’t see a reason to buy the new rims to get the Mich Defs and the load rating. The newer 15’s far exceed those #’s in our size.



http://www.airforums.com/forums/f438...3s-120650.html


http://www.airforums.com/forums/f438...15-156339.html



http://www.airforums.com/forums/f438...sa-157249.html


Personal feedback re the awnings, as we have canvas all around. I believe our 2014 (bought new 5/2015) was a deal fell thru as it came with the canvas X3. I understand the dinette and rear are optional. Personally we have used the rear canvas only once, partially due to the bike’s when in the rack, but also as it’s a pretty small window. The dinette is the critical upgrade IMO. Curbside is OEM I believe.

IMO everything else can wait. I have/will have peeled off mods as time goes by, often when it’s replacement time (tires, 6v batts). The only mods I’ve done are the refer fan, & the pump house noise and some better than OEM repairs that became apparent. I don’t store with SP so the converter hasn’t been an issue with me. I store the batts at home on the workbench. If I may, I would suggest get some camp time in and the mods you need will float to the top pretty quickly.


Happy Trails.

Bob

[switz]

Note that most dealers have open orders at the factory. A little know fact is that an open order six or more weeks out can be changed to any other model. Thus one can go in and get in a order due much faster than one would suppose.

We have both a 20 and a 30 pound spare propane tank in storage so we have a choice.

[Wskcondor]

Switz, how do you get a 900W solar system? Meaning, how many panels of what size do you have installed? I am picking up my FC20 this morning, and purposefully did not get the weak factory system (only 80W), but I am concerned about real estate to get maximum wattage. Obviously your 31’ has a lot of real estate up there, but that’s over TEN times the capacity of the factory installed option. Can you share some details?
V/R,
Bill

[Wskcondor]

Originally Posted by tincruiser

Here are my first questions:

Buying new, it sounds like the critical upgrade before you leave the lot are the rear and street side awnings. Most other things such as batteries, solar, tire upgrades are often handled better aftermarket. Is that correct?

Regarding the TV, I would love to hear what non-truck options have been successful. This vehicle will be my daily driver. I imagine something with no less than 6000# towing capacity. But would love to hear what SUVs are solid and reliable as TVs for an FC20.

It’s hauling a generator that seems to almost mandate a truck with a bed. Are there any other big trade offs between the truck and suv choice?

Rob

In case you have not explored this, I would add that, having just purchased a FC20 (picking up today), the awning package should cost $1350 but only if installed when built at the factory (it is on a sticker that Patrick Botticelli goes over on the 2017 FC20 walkthrough (which is awesome)). But I asked the dealership and to install there, once they have the trailer, costs $3050. I pressed to find out why it was so much but they held pretty firm and they are a licensed Airstream Adventures dealership. So bottom line, if you REALLY want them, you might want to order the trailer from factory. Then again they may corral you into paying MSRP if you are ordering a personal build. IN which case, it wouldn’t be worth it. (I.e. I am saving about $16000 off MSRP by negotiation, and the awning savings would only be about $2000).

As for tow vehicle, well standby for more. I towed with my Porsche Cayenne S and it was very smooth and easy (400HP). And now I am going to be towing with my 2017 Tesla Model X. 5000lbs GVWR and oodles of torque. Range will be cut in half or worse but I will report on how it all works out. I have already towed a utility trailer with it and a SPort 16, but 4th FC20 is hefty for it’s small length.

[CruizinDux]

Originally Posted by Wskcondor

In case you have not explored this, I would add that, having just purchased a FC20 (picking up today), .....

Wskcondor, congratulations on your new 20 and joining this thread!

Bob

[switz]

We were to place five AM Solar 100 watt solar panels on the roof of our 2015 23D.

We were able to place the 300 amp-hour lithium battery under the street side sofa just in front of the wheel well. The solar charge controller is just in front of the battery along with battery isolation equipment. In front of the furnace we installed a Magnum hybrid MSH-3012 inverter/converter along with a 120Vac automatic transfer switch (new inlet installed on the front of the trailer) and new main disconnect. All this equipment is behind the original cabinetry backstops so there is no loss of the factory storage under the sofa and street side dinette seat.

Our trailer had the crank-up television antenna which we replaced with the circular automatic Winegard Rayzor. This freed up space for the 5th panel.

[OTRA15]

Originally Posted by Wskcondor

. . .
. . . I am going to be towing with my 2017 Tesla Model X.
. . .

Welcome to the forum, Bill, and to the 20-footer thread! FYI there is a thread here about towing with the X:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...-x-160951.html

. . . but my impression is that our FC20 would be too heavy, unless the X's tow rating has been increased for 2017. This was discussed on that thread. The tongue weight might also be excessive IMO. [edit -- see quote in PS]

FYI there is also a more general thread about EV towing:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...le-169483.html

Have fun with your new FC20!

Cheers,

Peter

PS -- Here is Post #144 from the first thread linked above -- click on the arrow in the quote to go to that thread, and read the ensuing conversation]:

Originally Posted by ohmman

Peter,
Note that the Tesla provided hitch has a tongue weight limitation of 500 lbs, so you'll have to upgrade the hitch to safely tow a FC20.
. . .

[OTRA15]

PS -- A correction, Bill, based on the following post from that X thread:

Originally Posted by ohmman

https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/...america_en.pdf

Page 68.
. . .

The referenced p. 68 indicates that the Max Trailer Tow weight is indeed 5,000 lbs., matching the FC20, but that the hitch weight is limited to 500 lbs..

Of course, the GVWR of the Model X would also factor in here, to accommodate occupants and cargo, as would the GCWR for tow vehicle and trailer [per the DOT stickers on the driver's door frame].

The Towing sub-forum is loaded with threads about deciphering tow ratings and limitations:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f238/

Good luck,

Peter

PS -- You may already have a firm grasp of the various different weight ratings for towing, but FYI here is an overview:

https://www.curtmfg.com/page/towing101_ch4

Sorry if this is TMI!

[Wskcondor]

Absolutely NOT TMI! I really appreciate all the information as there isn’t a whole lot out there about the Model X and towing, much less the FC20. THere are some extensive accounts on two Model X owners who purchased Sport 22FB’s.

I have been doing the research so I knew I was pressing the limits (of published specs).

Although I did see a Model X towing a 23FB! (Not that it is something sustainable).

So yes, I am approaching (but will be under) the 5000 tow weight.
Tongue weight is another factor, and I know the rating is 500lbs, but the 631lb number on my FC20 is based on empty weight of course, as sold.

I will be removing the two Group 24 batteries (which are very far forward and I think about 92lbs together) replacing with lithium, still ahead of the axle, but further aft and also lighter.

I will tow initially with full fresh water (which is aft of the axle in the FC20), and possibly more cargo or water back there in the back. Realizing it isn’t desireable to have a lot of weight that far aft, this is a close balancing act. I am really just shooting for that tongue to be 500lbs, and purchased a tongue weight scale to measure it.

As for GVWR, the Model X has zero issues with the total power and torque required, so it is just a range issue and the actual hitch receiver construction. Since it is rated at 5000, I am holding the company to it.

Next issue is a weight distribution hitch. Both the Sport 22FB purchasers on the Tesla motor club site installed equalizer hitches. One has put some significant mileage on it, and has seen undue wear and the mechanism becoming ill fitting. No one has received definitive info from Tesla, but some discussion has hinted the torque applied via a WD hitch might not be good for the hitch system nor what it was designed for. NOt sure if they have come out and stated, “your warranty will be void if you use a WD hitch” but they have hinted at it.
The Model X levels itself when you go into Trailer mode, and it has an anti-sway algorithm in software which is supposed to sense sway and counter it, so...it could be that these effects are lessened a little just by the design of the TV. (No illusions that they would be eliminated).

I will be keeping it at or under 55MPH, for range considerations and I guess for California law, so hopefully will avoid really nasty situations with sway.

Got a 700 mile tow coming up on friday, so I guess we will see in real time.

[OTRA15]

Thanks for the details, Bill. Sounds like you are on top of all the issues.

FYI the one time I felt a hint of sway with our FC20 was when she was lightly loaded, but had a full fresh water tank aft. A semi trailer came roaring by, as it passed us [we ~60 MPH], and the FC20 definitely reacted to the truck's bow wave, in a fashion that seemed new to me. I had already placed my right hand on the brake controller, in anticipation of engaging the trailer's brakes, which I then did right away . . . so we never found out how bad the sway might have gotten.

I assume you have a brake controller, and know about the technique described above for controlling trailer sway? BTW the new search function above works great -- powered by Google to search only airforums.com -- so put in any terms and have at it. "trailer sway" will yield many interesting, and cautionary, scenarios.

Have fun on the next trip, and once again welcome to the 20-footer thread.

Peter

PS -- The two full propane tanks weigh a ton, so this is one location where you could definitely save some tongue weight, depending on weather and need for heat. I posted here about maybe using a standard 20-pound BBQ tank to back-feed the FC20's propane system, via the low pressure discharge port near the propane tanks. I think this will work, but have not tested it out. This spare BBQ propane tank is available everywhere, and weighs <= 1/4 the two full OEM tanks. If you carry a totally empty [thus safer] BBQ tank, you can swap it for a full one once you reach the first campground. Awkward maybe, but to save >100 pounds of tongue weight, it may be worth the effort IMO.

[Wskcondor]

Peter,
All good and more great information and advice.

I do have a wireless brake controller with that hand held unit in front, so that is good advice on the technique for controlling sway before it gets out of hand. I will keep in mind on the freeway.

As for propane, also good gouge I had not considered. The two 30lb propane tanks is...a lot of propane for a 20’ trailer.

I am not sure how the thing would fit together if I took one or both off though (i.e. it seems like the attachment of the stainless steel cover relies on the tanks themselves as structure and you tighten it all down with that giant wing nut thing. SO I guess if you took it off, it would be both tanks and the cover and leave them in your garage? Then did you mean to place the smaller BBQ tank in that same location or...somewhere aft? How would you secure the smaller tank?

I am probably not visualizing what you are proposing, but for quick and reversible weight reduction on the tongue it seems like a good idea.

Bill