20-footers

[CruizinDux]

[During my first Fall in San Diego way back when, I remember heating up pork and beans on the beach over a can of Sterno for my first Thanksgiving away from home -- under palm trees, in between surf sessions. Heaven!] Peter while we generally opted for the 35¢ Tostada plates at Tugs in Mission Beach in lieu of the P&B, I suspect the ambiance was similar. 75 degrees… T shirts & flip-flops ~, surfing and relaxing in the low rides. Awesome times. I’ll let the AS replace the sterno, but the rest still works ; )

[When I saw your photos of the LP drains near the water heater tank, I thought they looked different than mine.] Mine are ¼ turn, but one was installed 180 out. The hot side turns the opposite direction to close. In the rear compartment they are in sync. It will be interesting what others have. I’m thinking your design cured my issue and that is that the handle on top (due to the bottom slope of the HWH) as it swings around comes into contact with the WH bottom. Already (open) there may be only a 1/16th of clearance. When I close it and the top swings around it hits to HWH I believe causing the valve to rotate lightly on the tubing axis (see original pic) due to the handing not having sufficient clearance to swing, not to mention the resistance to the handle top turning. I suspect your version (which swings 1/4 turn toward the door???), assuming the overall height is the same, would not have the handle clearance issue. Mine looks like a T from a side elevation and yours looks like an I. The tips of the T are what hits to top of the WH.

I also se a problem with the supply line that T’s then head up then forward to connect with the lower HWH supply connection. Mine slopes down meaning other than disconnecting and lifting to male it flow to the LP drains, it will be a great place for water to collect, and difficult to blow out. Disconnect solved the problem and I caught it in a towel more (than the water pump) but the angle translates to a very easy cross thread potential. I think that if I lift (swing up) the short arm at the WH connect so that the rear heading connection flows downhill I’ll be good. I think swinging it up each time will stress the pex connection so I’m thinking adjust it once and leave it. It may have come from JC that way or has been moved inadvertently in dealer prep.

Depending on what others for 13’s and 15’s chime in with, I’ll start with the local dealer, but their initial response…it (the valve) will loosen up with time. I may also contact JC. This is a terrible plumbing install. Depending on the above progress, I may look for a couple of brass in-line ¼ turn angle stops. I’ll cross the pulling the WH to make this improvement bridge when I’m there.

As for the camera location I had to remove the plywood …just to get a good approach the valve. Before I had to lower the table, kneel on facing the door and slip my hand down almost backwards and twist to get to the driver’s side LP valve. I immediately starting thinking about solutions to this and only later discovered the extent of the challenge when looking at the pictures. Once the plywood was off I could reach back and under the bead via an opening in the bulkhead, set the camera down and pressed the timer.

[OTRA15]

Bob, thanks for the detailed descriptions including your camera location and technique.

If I have understood you correctly (and after looking at your photos again), I think I will do the following final step on my winterization, in order to take care of any residual water lurking in that supply line to the water heater, the one with the weird as-installed in-line low point of its own. Please tell me if you think these steps will take care of the possible problem you note.

Assumption -- a full winterization has already been done.

-- close all faucets, low point drains, water heater drain plug and pressure relief valve
-- hook up air line to city water inlet and set discharge regulator to 20 lbs. pressure
-- open both low point drains near the water heater, one at a time
-- close these drains
-- disconnect air line
-- remove water heater drain plug
-- hook up air line again, and increase compressor output pressure regulator to 40 lbs.(should be OK with drain plug removed)
-- monitor discharge from water heater drain -- any new water from the problem supply line?
-- remove air line and open all faucets and low point drains (4)

In your mind will this additional step help with any residual water at the problematic low point in the supply line to the water heater?

Thanks,

Peter

[CruizinDux]

Peter, this looks to me like a good strategy. Understand it was 4:30 pm and getting dark @ 5 with only 12 v lights and was getting a bit frenzied. It was supposed to drop to 26 that night so I continued until the flem sound stopped. This process was my second winterization pass from the preceeding weekend. During the first pass, when under pressure I would alternate (in the bath vanity faucet)…I would get pure air but could hear a bit of flem when I turned it to hot. Cold was clear and quiet. I suspected a bit of congestion remaining in the hot side upstream of the Hot LP Drain.



[Open both low point drains near the water heater, one at a time] I didn’t do this separately but like the idea. I did open and close the hot side LP valve while under pressure 3-4 times to flush out the flem, so to speak. I also used the thumb over the over the end of the connection (alt on and off) method where I disconnected supply at the WH supply connection image 7355 ( to reverse flow the inherent low point in the line) I also had a towel handy. I was surprised how much water came out here. I also had the nose down on the jack as far as it would go.

I also plan to rotate the elbow up at this connection to eliminate the low point in the line…assuming the Elbow from the T is lower than the WH supply connection Image 7358. Seems I have may sufficient fall if I twist the connection (image 7355) so the elbow section is closer to just shy of level s it drains but still higher than the low point elbow 12” to the south.



b

[OTRA15]

Thanks Bob, you should be OK with a little phlegm in a line IMO [nice term BTW!], as long as there is not a block of it large enough to freeze solid and crack the line. At least you have good visibility of this area. I am more concerned with hidden lines (both H&C), which are out of our control at this point if we don't want to use antifreeze. I am thinking mainly behind/under the shower. TBD.

Increasing the air pressure to 40 PSI and only opening one LP drain (faucet etc.) at a time is just another notch of insurance.

[MaineStreamer]

Do you guys not use RV antifreeze?

[OTRA15]

Not in the supply lines. I like to keep the chemicals, even the so-called "safe" ones, away.

[CruizinDux]

[Do you guys not use RV antifreeze?] This being my first season, I’ve been reading the threads as well a discussion with the local dealer. Seems the norm for Eugene is blow out the lines completely. I too would like to keep the lines as chemically clear and AF free as possible.

[…you should be OK with a little phlegm in a line IMO [nice term BTW!], I misspelled it but it seemed accurate to my situation. I’m hoping your right. [I am thinking mainly behind/under the shower. TBD. ] ….for sure. Looking at the schematic from JC I was surprised at the number of elbows in that area. Well stated….TBD.

Bob
p.s. Peter thank for the pics. It looks like your supply/WH connection line loops vertically over the top of the connection. I was thinking rotating it enough to the side for sufficient fall, but may look at the vertical option when I de-winterize.

[OTRA15]

Originally Posted by CruizinDux

[snip]
It looks like your supply/WH connection line loops vertically over the top of the connection.
[snip]

Exactly, as the following shot shows (taken from above standing at the end of the dinette table and looking down to the right through the access hole in the forward bench seat plywood). When I checked this out the other day, it seemed like this supply line would drain by gravity to the low point below it. You can see both the LP shut-off handles at the bottom left, although only the very end of the one under that black plastic box on the back of the water heater tank.





I still went ahead and blew out all the lines again at 40 PSI per my earlier note, and did manage to get about 2-4 ounces of water out of one of the rear LP drains. Raising the pressure thus seems to have helped perhaps get some phlegm out of some line . . . TBD come Spring . . .

[OTRA15]

Originally Posted by TCwheels

Peter - I noticed no one responded to this question. The switch to 16" wheels (I went with Sendel) and the Michelins does NOT require any modification. The wheel caps from the 15s even fit perfectly!

TC, thanks for your reply on the other thread. On the Sendel wheels were there any choices as to style/material, and which Michelins did you get? Mud and snow for instance?

I am planning some upgrades for the next year, with wheels/tires being one. New batteries/charger/solar panels are another possibility down the road, but my batteries tested out OK, so I guess the dealer treated them right as our 2014 sat on the lot for a year plus or minus.

Thanks,

Peter

[OTRA15]

Belay that TCwheels, just saw your Post 72 here. Thanks

[OTRA15]

Originally Posted by TCwheels

Jerry and Kathyrn -

I JUST put the 16" Sendel T03 wheels with Michelin 225/75 LTX 'E' rated tires on my FC20 and they fit fine. Even the center caps fit perfectly. Clearance is a tad tighter, but they'll travel with no problem. Lots of other folks have done this on their 20s. You'll have no problems.

Are these Michelins the M&S model? Thanks

[TCwheels]

Originally Posted by OTRA15

Are these Michelins the M&S model? Thanks

I don't have the unit near me, but I believe they are...

[MaineStreamer]

What is the benefit of increasing from 15 to 16-inch wheels?

[CruizinDux]

Peter, thanks for the last pic, it’s a great visual. I think I’m bringing a small level when I go visit Blue in storage. Maybe I’m spending too much time on this but hey, it’s winter, and I presume this over analysis is all part of working towards that first opportunity to abandon winterization and get…as you and Willie often say..on the road again ; )

I would like the WH supply to be self-draining from the galv connection @ the tank, thru the diverter valve and on back to the LP drain. Looking at you picture, the over the top approach for the supply to the WH connection seems like a low spot between the elbow/wing nut connection and the galv WH connection, requiring high PSI to push H2O up hill and into the tank to drain at the WH plug….or disconnect the wingnut and catch in a rag.


I think instead of the supply coming in almost vertical, approach from the door side just short of level, (maybe supported by a small block of wood so it doesn’t fall back to my current approach from below), so that it will self-drain from the galv connection thru the diverter valve and on back the LP….all assuming that the elbow at the dinette end is low enough.

[CruizinDux]

TCWheels and OTRA, thanks for the Sendel/Michlen discussion reminder. I got a little lost in the new Defender discussion today initiated by Rocinante. Ours wasn’t on the dealer’s/on hemarket that I could tell, but I suspect was in contract and fell through as we have extra canvas that I don’t believe is OEM. We bought our ’14 new this last May, so it sat somewhere for a year.

Like OTRA, I was thinking the batt’s were ill-treated and was considering as a first project the GC 6V conversion instead of OEM replacement but they’re holding fine (disconnected) but I think our first upgrade will be the rims/tires.

In response to Mainestreamer, as I understand it, it is the blowout history of the Marathons as well as the higher weight capacity @ lower PSI of the Mich 16’s. I’m sure someone more knowledgeable than me, will chime in w/greater detail tomorrow.

Bob

[OTRA15]

Thanks all -- regarding upgrades in general, as we all know Airstream does not supply a robust road-ready trailer with the best components any more. Not sure if they, or any other manufacturer, ever did. Upgrades are intended to replace the weak links in the chain, under controlled conditions, before they break under out-of-control conditions.

"Control your world or it will control you?" [ or some other stupid aphorism . . . ]

The other side of this upgrade equation is: "If it ain't broke don't fix it . . . "

I am picturing the following upgrades over the next year, before any major road trips in the fall and the next winter. [ CalDream17 ? ]

Tires
Switching to 16" MIchelins will make the trailer safer to drive with a full load over long distances, and at high temperatures like in the desert, in my opinion. A more aggressive tread will improve control in marginal weather. I think Michelin also makes an All-Terrain model in this size, as well as a Mud and Snow. Tread TBD. I have had lots of Michelins in the past and trust them. [links below for most references here]

The Centramatic balancers are new to me, but make sense also.

Slightly improved ground clearance with the 16's is a plus, but not determinative on its own.

Batteries/Charger/Converter/Solar
A longer term dream maybe a year or two out. As I said, my batteries seem to have been treated well at the dealer, so I will cross this bridge when some serious boondocking appears on the horizon. For the next year, I would rather enjoy the use of the tool we have, rather than introduce new variables with which I have no experience (especially solar).

Important to recognize a pipe dream for what it is at this stage of life IMO, and get On The Road Again sooner rather than later, as Bob mentioned.

Gravity-drain plumbing
After comparing the photos again, I think that, in contrast to Bob's cold water supply to the water heater, our set up does not have a similar problem low spot. This is really hard to talk about without looking at the pipes together in person, so I am simply going to agree that Bob may have to re-plumb his, or do the work-around he mentions each fall. A gravity drain plus 40 PSI air blow-out will work for us IMO. We will know for sure in the spring.

To repeat what I said in an earlier post, it is totally weird that our two trailers from the same 2014 year have such different plumbing configurations. No wonder Jackson Center has such quality control issues!

Conclusion
We can use the trailer as-is and have plenty of fun right now. Upgrades will come as our longer-term plans near fruition.

There is a great story from Zen Flesh, Zen Bones about a man tasting a strawberry at a crucial time in life . . .

"How sweet it tasted."


On The Road Again!


Links
Sendel: T03BM | Sendel Wheels
Michelin: LTX M/S tires | Michelin US
16" generally (and lots of other threads): http://www.airforums.com/forums/f465...-a-127087.html
Centramatics check short video at top right here: http://www.centramatic.com/videos.rhtml
ZFZB strawberry: http://www.graceguts.com/quotations/...d-a-strawberry

[TCwheels]

Originally Posted by OTRA15

Batteries/Charger/Converter/Solar
A longer term dream maybe a year or two out. As I said, my batteries seem to have been treated well at the dealer, so I will cross this bridge when some serious boondocking appears on the horizon. For the next year, I would rather enjoy the use of the tool we have, rather than introduce new variables with which I have no experience

Peter - When you do your research on solar, please keep us posted. I know there's lots of good info and I've read every solar thread on the Forum, but it would helpful to know what you think. We're sticking with our Group 24 OEM batteries until they crap out and I have a pair of new Group 29s in the on deck circle on a four stage charger ready to go. I installed a 100 Watt Renology panel and 30 amp controller on our popup last year but am not going to touch an install on the 20! The plan is for 2 or 3 - 100 Watt panels with the appropriate solar controller and battery monitoring system. We'll add an inverter too as ours does not have one. I've read good things about a couple of sources for this work and may do a long distance camp/upgrade trip next year.

[OTRA15]

Thanks TCwheels, my solar etc. thoughts are similar . . . will stay in touch on this. When you have a chance please confirm the M&S tread on your Michelins. Did you consider an All-Terrain tire by any chance? I am not sure if such a tread exists for our needs, as the Michelin site is not easy to navigate IMO, but would be interested to know if you came across a more aggressive tread when you made the switch. The A/T tires seem to be designed to handle gravel (read: boondocking IMO) roads better.

Thanks.

PS -- Here is the Defender tire thread Bob mentioned FYI:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f438...xl-144555.html

TCwheels, did you also buy a 16" for the spare, and did it fit? Is there any reason not to use the existing 15" spare to "limp home" or is this penny wise pound foolish in your opinion?

[TCwheels]

Originally Posted by OTRA15

Thanks TCwheels, my solar etc. thoughts are similar . . . will stay in touch on this. When you have a chance please confirm the M&S tread on your Michelins. Did you consider an All-Terrain tire by any chance? I am not sure if such a tread exists for our needs, as the Michelin site is not easy to navigate IMO, but would be interested to know if you came across a more aggressive tread when you made the switch. The A/T tires seem to be designed to handle gravel (read: boondocking IMO) roads better.

TCwheels, did you also buy a 16" for the spare, and did it fit? Is there any reason not to use the existing 15" spare to "limp home" or is this penny wise pound foolish in your opinion?

I installed a new lift motor switch this weekend and, while at the AS, confirmed that I do indeed have the M&S tread. Definitely aggressive enough IMO, even for rugged boondocking. We'd love to join Ray Ecklund on one of his Rockdocking adventures out west and I would have no hesitation going with these tires.

We do have a 16" spare - it was the replacement wheel/tire combo that got us through our Spring adventure when we lost a new Sendel and Michelin on I-65. Jackson Center bent the bracket to hold the bigger spare when they did the other repairs. That said, I would not have a problem keeping the 15" spare had that been the situation. One would get a new tire ASAP if experiencing a flat, so temporarily driving on a 15" tire doesn't seem a big deal.

[OTRA15]

Sounds good thanks for the quick reply.

Peter