20-footers

[CruizinDux]

Originally Posted by OTRA15

Bob, did you ever put in an accumulator? I has pleasantly surprised at how ours [under the bath sink] quieted things down, even though it was pretty far from the pump [and the apparent location of the noise].

Cheers,

Hey Peter, No I have not. My sound is under the shower and likely a loose hold down bracket. The tank may help but quite frankly while it is annoying inside, hardly noticeable to neighbors outside. Plus my wife has pretty muck accounted for the available RE under the vanity. If I ever pull the vanity I may consider that area as it seems there is a void behind the rear of the cabinet.

[OTRA15]

Originally Posted by CruizinDux

. . .
. . . If I ever pull the vanity I may consider that area as it seems there is a void behind the rear of the cabinet.

Or pull the rear dinette seat, and put the accumulator under it, or in the void you recall correctly -- plenty of good photos in Post #2898 -- click on orange arrow to go directly there:

Originally Posted by OTRA15

Update --

I removed the dinette rear seat this morning, and got the lay of the land. Attached are some shots starting with the wide view and the VBASV hidden way in the back. Great move you made last year -- to cut a hole in the vertical case under the sink.
. . .

Originally Posted by CruizinDux

FYI, rock shield bracket repair completed
https://www.airforums.com/forums/f45...ml#post2432597
. . .

Thanks . . . will check ours.

[LNBright]

Whew.... I'm new to the 20-footer page, but after WashMoBob pointed it out to me, I started at the beginning, reading through it all.... took a few days! Bob, Peter, Steve, I feel like I know you guys now... there's a bit of history in this thread!

While wanting an Airstream for a long time, it was always a way off. But, I'd joined the forums back in 2015, to start learning more about them. We have three kids, but they're now 'almost grown'. The youngest turned 18 this past year, graduated high school and she is off to college. The son, our middle kid, wrapping up his bachelors, planning to go to grad school. The oldest, she's already out on her own w/ her own daughter/family. So, we're almost empty nesters! But, college budgets! So, I wasn't shopping new, I knew I would be looking used, and, open to what I found as opposed to getting exactly what I would've picked out. I've been fortunate enough to make it to all of the lower 48, but, my wife hasn't been past the Mississippi. She's a schoolteacher, has summers off. I work for a state agency, and have been there long enough, I have a lot of leave, of vacation time. I can't take a whole month off, but, I could take a couple of weeks in the summer, and then a week here and a week there. And, I work four 10's, so, every week is a three-day weekend. So, our plan is, local parks on her long weekends (we're where TN. VA, and NC meet, lots of local spots, and a bit over an hour from the Smokies), then week-long trips at fall and spring breaks to eastern parks (Shenandoah, Outer Banks, Acadia, etc.); then, during the summer, hit the western parks on longer two-week trips. Usually, it'll just be the two of us and the dog, but, we'll probably occasionally have one of the kids or perhaps a granddaughter tag along, thus a dinette that can handle a 3rd was important.

For parks, I knew I didn't want anything big, no 30-fter or longer, and I knew I didn't want a wet bath, so the 16-ft was out, as was some older 19-20ft ones; and I am not keen on corner beds. The 20ft, the 23-ft, the 25ft, was kinda my sweet spot I originally thought. After a few of years, I started watching the market closer, getting a handle on values, knowing X amount would buy such-n-such, but Y amount more could get you so-in-so.

So at the end of this last year, it finally got to be time to do such. After the first of the year, did a refi on the house, traded my 4Runner in on a Sierra (I had a Sierra before the 4Runner, and while I loved the 4Runner, I knew it would be marginal to tow with, depending on what I ended up with (if I'd wanted a 16-ft, it would have been okay, but anything more...). I was finally ready to shop.

Not so much choice locally, I expected to travel to find the 'right' one (traveling is part of having an Airstream, right?). The Classifieds here, RVTrader, RVT, Craigslist, dealer websites across the nation, I was searching them all. Right off the bat, I'd missed a great deal on a 23FB in DFW, then right after that, was waiting on pics back from a dealer in Spokane on another 23FB, but someone dropped a deposit on it before they got the pics to me. After that, came across a string of 28-ft ones that were just at/above budget, or, had soft rear floors. Zeroed in on checking for soft rear floors, and ended up having a string of Airstreams I passed over. In the meantime, I then started deciding to trim down my size, that the 27 and 28 ones were a bit longer than I wanted, started sticking with 23 and 25 as my desired length. I liked the idea of the dual axles, because I was picturing a blowout, and you'd have a bit of redundancy, and, you had bigger tanks for boondocking. And, I knew I wanted a queen, because I'm no longer a skinny guy, thought we'd need some more room. (No interest in twins.)

But wow, beginning shopping in March, through to Thanksgiving, throw everything I knew about pricing out the window. Absolutely nuts watching the market. I kept thinking it'd settle down (and I know it eventually will), but, wow. But it also led to me really thinking, what was it I needed and why.

I knew I could go single-axle version the Sport 22, that the things missing between it and the Flying Cloud, some you could add, such as rock-guards or a rear bumper. But, the interior on the Sports... I just really liked the Flying Cloud interior best, even more than Internationals or Classics. I started doubting the 23FB, though: I knew the 23CB was out, not liking the corner bed, but the 23FB, the dinette wasn't quite perfect. So I was leaning more towards a 25 FBQ or a 25RBQ. But, the prices had just kept coming up. And, I finally gave up on Craigslist, about everything I found there that looked nice was a scam, had become worthless to try.

(Side story: a bit before Thanksgiving, someone ran a redlight and t-boned me: No one was hurt, insurance is fixing the truck. I should get it back in about a week, am currently in a rental.)

Had the week off for Thanksgiving, drove down to the nearest dealer, again... while a lot of dealerships keep their websites updated, the nearest one doesn't really... I'd been by a couple of times looking, and what was on the ground rarely matched what was online. But, I pop in, looking at what they have. And, while most were new, there was... a lightly used 20ft Flying Cloud.

Yeah, I'd heard good things about the kitchen and bathroom, and it wasn't a corner bed. But, it wasn't a queen, and was a single axle. While very clean and lightly used, it also had a dent on top. But...

I started thinking... do I really intend to do a week of boondocking, or maybe just on weekends? Am I mostly going to hit campgrounds a week at a time? If I use quality tires and TPMS monitoring, is a single axle 'really' that bad? (Plus, half the tires to buy...) The 20' had a better dinette, but, the bed.... The sales guy, after chatting a bit, knew I knew enough that he just let me hang out looking at it, comparing it to the 23FB net to it, and, I spent a bit of time lying in that bed, thinking about the fact that, we're not full-timers, we're not going to be living in it for a month at a time....

No, it didn't have the vented AC in the roof, since it's a 2015 instead of a 2016. No, it's not a dual axle, with big tanks, and no, it's not a queen. It has a dent. But, it is a Flying Cloud, it has a good bathroom and kitchen, and I now think the bed is big enough. Does it meet our needs, and, budget? Yes... so....

It wasn't an instant purchase, I wanted to take the wife down to see it. But, she said no, she trusted me (as a teacher, through all this craziness, she's tired, would rather let me handle it). I'd emailed the sales guy some questions... it has that dent in the top, and, I liked the idea of a lift, I liked the idea of the other awnings... He called me back, lower price than advertised, and, done. It comes with a Blue Ox Swaypro. Already has covers over the fantastic fans. We're waiting on the awnings to arrive, they're installing the awnings and the lift for me. Having read here over the past few years, I'd planned to buy a set of 16" wheels so I could go w/ the Michelins to get away from the Marathons, but, with the Endurance available now, I'm going to stick w/ the 15" wheels... the tires are hardly used that are on it, but, they are the original Marathons, so they've met their age... tires will be immediate. As my Sierra has the towing package (not the fancy camera setup, though, but w/ TPMS and a brake controller), I've already picked up the TPMS sensors to have installed when I get the tires put on.

So, after I get my Sierra back, hopefully the awnings and lift will have arrived and be installed by then, and I'll go bring her home. While we're set for 'normal' camping gear, it's all the camper-specific things I'm now learning about. I'm researching all the other things we'll need, like chocks, Anderson levelers, a coupler lock... eventually solar but maybe not immediately, same with a generator, and do I want to install a backup camera on it, etc. etc.

I'm already wondering about accumulators, and Dinosaur boards for the furnace, and poking through lots of other threads about different things. I still have so much to learn. But, it'll be good to learn a lot of new things.

Anyway, a bit long-winded, sorry... But I'm glad to be here.



TL/DR: I've just bought a FC20.

[centennialman]

Great post Leslie and welcome to the FC20 family! These are just the best floor plan IMO. I absolutely love my 20 Footer. I have taken it out on some long trips and enjoyed the heck out of it. I upgraded to the Endurance tires two years ago and they are running fine. The only challenge I have had with my FC 20 is the darned water heater…..hasn’t worked right (on propane) since I bought it new. Even popped in a Dinosaur board last summer and it still acts up…..oh well.
This model is easy to tow, shows well and it’s great to have some room in the galley for a couple of people to prepare meals at the same time. I love the big windows in the dining area and there is enough storage for my needs. I hope to add some gas lifts to the bed this coming season and make it easier to access that area easier.
Ask lots of questions….someone here will know the answers.

[LNBright]

Thanks Steve!

[CruizinDux]

Leslie, Wow, very exciting!!! The crawl over is a small price to pay for so many other "best in show" aspects of the 20'!

Just a couple of passing thoughts: Not sure what your winter plans are if any and if you're taking delivery of it winterized. Educate yourself on winterizing and summerizing, both at home and OTR. Make sure they give you a good walk thru. Some folks even video it as it is a data dump for sure. I'd be glad to re post my check list. I had been using 1CFM black & Decker inflator and it worked fine, just slow but I just bought a 3cfm Craftsman compressor for $99.

Locate a scale nearby. Best is a county ag scale if you're rural. They are generally never used and give you a change to move stuff around inside to see the affect. Plus they're free. You'll need to have a good number for your axle weight, better yet each tire to determine the PSI. Great call on the GYE's.

Don't worry about the accumulators and D Boards. They can be added later if needed. I do not have either. Key is using it and become familiar with the plumbing, 12VDC/110VAC systems...not to mention the stereo and it's default settings.

Congratulations. This thread is a great resource, so do not hesitate to ask away. As my old Sea Ranch neighbor (the proverbial rocket scientist ) always said, there are no dumb questions, just different backgrounds and depths of experience.

Camp-On!

[LNBright]

They have it currently winterized. As it is a dealer, they insist on having a class before you take delivery, to teach you all about it, and said I was welcome to stay as long and even go through it again and again, which I warned them, I'll most likely take them up on it. I've already been wearing out youtube videos and reading plenty of old threads here. Videoing it as I go through is a great idea, tho', that way it's on 'mine' instead of one that's a year newer or older and might have some differences. I do have a Craftsman inflator in my truck (had got it for airing back up coming off the beach in the Outer Banks), but, I also do have a decent Craftsman air compressor here at home (a 60gal, we just installed hardwood floors in our den with it, it'd be 'overkill' for just winterizing, but, when it's the tool you already have....). But yes, I intend to unwinterize it and rewinterize it while there, before even leaving the lot. (Then stopping for tires enroute home!)


There was another thread, where someone was mentioning preferring a queen over twins, and they said 'the king and queen still get along': and, I suppose that's what I was thinking about deciding to be okay w/ the 20... being a bit snug for a week at a time isn't a bad thing.


I like the idea about finding a scale locally. The Sierra is rated for a 9800lb trailer, 980lb tongue weight: so w/ a gross on the trailer of 5000lb, the truck will be fine: but, I do want to ensure I get it balanced well, slightly forward, etc. That's one thing I'd been pondering: my gut would say, ensure BW and GW tanks are empty, but fill the FW tank... however, as it's behind the axle on the 20FC instead of astride or forward of, I wonder if a half-tank might be required.... but, w/ both propane tanks full and the batteries and spare up there, I would then think that the FW is maybe balanced enough? But yes, figuring out the actual weights would be important. I guess, one thing factoring in, my Sierra is an AT4, so it has a factory 2" lift, but, w/ the Dexter lift going in on the AS, that would maybe keep things closer to 'even' anyway. Plus, the BlueOx Swaypro has an adjustable head, so I could take it up or down as needed to ensure the trailer is level, and then w/ the bars, go up or down a link to dial in making sure it behaves as it should.

A rocket scientist, eh? Well, I'm a rock scientist! (literally! I'm a geologist...).

Anyway, looking forward to spring already!

[TCwheels]

Originally Posted by centennialman

Great post Leslie and welcome to the FC20 family! These are just the best floor plan IMO. I absolutely love my 20 Footer. I have taken it out on some long trips and enjoyed the heck out of it. I upgraded to the Endurance tires two years ago and they are running fine. The only challenge I have had with my FC 20 is the darned water heater…..hasn’t worked right (on propane) since I bought it new. Even popped in a Dinosaur board last summer and it still acts up…..oh well.
This model is easy to tow, shows well and it’s great to have some room in the galley for a couple of people to prepare meals at the same time. I love the big windows in the dining area and there is enough storage for my needs. I hope to add some gas lifts to the bed this coming season and make it easier to access that area easier.
Ask lots of questions….someone here will know the answers.

Steve - I have a set of gas struts for that bed that are still new in the box. I did not install them before we got our new 25. I'd be glad to send them to you for the shipping charge. - Darrell

[OTRA15]

Welcome to the 20-footer thread, Leslie!

Originally Posted by LNBright

. . .
. . . my gut would say, ensure BW and GW tanks are empty, but fill the FW tank... however, as it's behind the axle on the 20FC instead of astride or forward of, I wonder if a half-tank might be required.... but, w/ both propane tanks full and the batteries and spare up there, I would then think that the FW is maybe balanced enough?
. . .
A rocket scientist, eh? Well, I'm a rock scientist! (literally! I'm a geologist...).
. . .

Good "rock scientist" planning already! The one item I would highlight in your comment above concerns the "state of fill" of the tanks.

We have never really fully loaded our 2014 FC20 for a long trip, and yours will probably be similarly loaded for the trip home. Thus the rear water tank, and front propane/batteries, exert more of a long-lever lateral bending moment on the sway action [sorry if the terminology is off a bit -- you get the gist I imagine]. The front weights are close to the hitch . . . not so that water tank -- at the end of a free-swinging lever . . . max force IMO.

Once, going to a local campground, our water tank was chock full. On a narrow 2-lane straightaway, an oncoming semi's bow wave, and a cross-wind gust hit at the same time. I was shocked at the sway forces apparently generated by the full water tank, as I corrected the steering for the wind action. Luckily I already had my right hand on the brake controller's manual slide, and applied the trailer's brakes firmly.

This was a real wake-up call, to the quick sway action our short single-axle trailers can make! In the 90's we had a 25' and logged about 25k miles all over the east coast, plus one long R/T to CA and back. Never once had a similar sway event with the longer more stable trailer.

Food for thought . . . . . . safety first.

Have fun!

[LNBright]

Thank you Peter!

I’ll admit, I would have mentally pictured a longer trailer being more susceptible to sway than a short: thank you for letting me know it’s the other way around. I do see the rear water tank acting a bit like a pendulum... it may behoove me to only keep a half-tank for road stretches, and then plan to fill once nearer to the destination. I need to start making mileage, get to learn how it’ll behave with my particular truck and hitch... but that’s why I’m here, I hope to learn as much as I can before the get-go, to be safer overall.


Again, thanks!

[CruizinDux]

Originally Posted by LNBright

Thank you Peter!

I’ll admit, I would have mentally pictured a longer trailer being more susceptible to sway than a short: thank you for letting me know it’s the other way around. I do see the rear water tank acting a bit like a pendulum... it may behoove me to only keep a half-tank for road stretches, and then plan to fill once nearer to the destination. I need to start making mileage, get to learn how it’ll behave with my particular truck and hitch... but that’s why I’m here, I hope to learn as much as I can before the get-go, to be safer overall.


Again, thanks!

Leslie You're right. It all depends on your TV, hitch and loading within the TT.

Mine is a Highlander, small by many standards and I sure need to keep my TW lower, generally in the 530-550 range down from the published 631. My FW is generally at 3/8- to 1/2 max, normally empty in the BW/GW and often two bikes on the back. I also rarely have two full tanks up front. The shower is my temp carry for my tool bag and wine to balance out the L/R.

That puts me around 11% of weight and that works for my setup...Highlander, equalizer and FC20. The general rule is 10-12%. I suspect a lot of that is the great job my Eugene hitch guy did in setting that up, and believe me I have been thru some extremely windy areas...Spokane, I-5 San Joaquin valley, OK & Texas. You've got a good TV with plenty of capacity and you'll learn what works best for your setup. His tip of brake with the controller is key, not only in sway but hard straight braking sometimes. No need to have unneeded company all of a sudden swinging around

Fortunately I've never been in a situation like Peter, but have experience the bow wind hard enough to blow mack my rear view mirrors.

Happy Trails.

[centennialman]

Darrell....thanks so much!!!!! I will send you a PM

[switz]

Note a partially filled water tank sloshes the water volume side to side which can make for sway issues. Just another consideration.

[LNBright]

Originally Posted by switz

Note a partially filled water tank sloshes the water volume side to side which can make for sway issues. Just another consideration.

Hmmm..... so, perhaps a full tank, but ensure enough front weight is present to balance it? Ensure propane tanks are full, batteries present, etc?

(And, continuing to read, I see that, GW tank emptied, yes, but BW tank should have a gallon or two of water back into it before moving....)

[CruizinDux]

I can understand the reasoning with the sloshing theory but would think that a tank closer to full would have more of an impact that a less then 1/2 tank, if in fact there is an effect. IMO, I think it's a reach.



Personally I have never traveled with a full or even close to full FW tank and have always been at .25-.5 of a tank. Just enough to keep the system operational of needed ORA as we do not boondock. Also generally the BW/GW are empty except for the day;s business and any BW primer for tank treatments. If we Wally it we'll simply pass on the a.m. showers

[OTRA15]

Good points, Bob.

Originally Posted by LNBright

Hmmm..... so, perhaps a full tank, but ensure enough front weight is present to balance it? Ensure propane tanks are full, batteries present, etc?

(And, continuing to read, I see that, GW tank emptied, yes, but BW tank should have a gallon or two of water back into it before moving....)

Good questions and observations, Leslie. What are you . . . a rock scientist or something?



There is plenty to learn, as you appreciate, and in fact we are all still learning. Being conservative, paying attention, open to suggestions, etc. are all good overlays in this process IMO.

If there is one broad brush I always try to have nearby, it is that "haste makes waste" . . . a silly old truism perhaps . . . which has nonetheless served well.

Happy trails,

[LNBright]

Ok, I've a question.....

I'm aware that there are changes year by year. Rear escape window no longer is but instead the one by the dinette, blinds become shades, eventually ducted A/C was added to the ceiling, the overhead cabinet in the rear goes away but something is added by the door, etc. I can see that the ducted A/C is one of the big changes over the history of the 20'.

But something I noticed: comparing my 2015 20' Flying Cloud specs list against the current 20' Caravel, the length, width, etc., mostly unchanged, the gross weight is the same, the actual weight is up by 29lbs, the net carrying capacity is down by 29lbs, little things.... but then the hitch weight really changed: my 2015 is listed at 631lbs, but the current is 565lbs.... that's a drop of 66lbs... more than double the 29lb change.

Is that mostly due to the vented A/C leading to a shift in weight? Or removing the rear cabinet from the back? That still seems like a bigger shift than what those should have caused.

Thoughts?

[CruizinDux]

Leslie, i noticed that too, maybe from another recent thread...20 vs 22?? Thinking, that's a typo. Checkec and i think the change was 2919...when did the Caravel launch?

Certainly a huge number. Cabinet could be part of it. Possibly a frame change as the 20 FC's were known for their beefier 6"x frames. Personally I've lost track of the changes starting with the ducted heat/cool. Maybe be kit cab changes due to slight configuration dye to ducting...maybe oven changes???

[LNBright]

Caravel came back in 2020 (but would have been announced and begun in 2019 as a 2020), would make sense to make any changes then as the single-axle Flying Cloud models became labeled as Caravels....

[MaineStreamer]

Well, my 2007 is a Safari.