ALDE HEATING SYSTEM FAILURE- Alde glycol discoloration and vent discharge

[majorairhead]

Dang, after reading this, I'd be pissed. Sorry, but this is totally unacceptable for the OP. A hundred thousand dollars + and this? Seriously?

Sorry for the rant, couldn't help myself. But the story told here is simply awful. Absolutely one hundred percent awful.

I'm afraid of Alde

I say new Airstream, paid for by Alde.

OP didn't buy a torn apart and rebuilt unit. OP bought a brand new airstream, in good faith, and now has this???

[SteveSueMac]

I don't have the Alde - mine is a 2012. I'm just sorry for the disappointment you must be experience. I'm with majorairhead.....

Very sorry for your troubles here!

[mojoe7009]

It is time to contact Justin Humphreys at Airstream. There is no way I would accept them tearing my trailer apart to replace the Alde system. Thankfully, our Alde system has been working great. With your problems they should buy the unit back and replace it with a new one. If it can be done, Justin is the man to make it happen. jhumphreys@airstream.com

[JimskyD]

Couple of corrections to this thread:
1. The Alde system itself is very good. They have extensive track record over many years in many applications. I believe it is the dealer that has the problem as this has only so far been seen on two trailers at the same dealership, Airstream Adventures Northwest. I have been to Alde US and it is a very heads-up operation and in no way should its reputation be degraded as a result of this problem with their system. On the contrary, their response has been over the top helpful trying to get this resolved. Spencer at Alde has been very open about all aspects of the Alde operation and wants to get to the bottom of this as much as anyone. Alde's response, if anything, has increased my confidence in their product and support.
2. Our trailer has been in the shop since March 4th, a total of seven weeks to date, instead of the nine I reported. It just seems like nine.

[CWO7241]

My wife and I purchased a new 2018 Airstream Classic 33 FB Twin from AANW, Covington, WA in May 2017.
In June 2017 we experienced the first failure of the Alde Automatic Air Vent resulting in a substantial loss of heat transfer fluid (glycol) overboard beneath the trailer. Since June 2017 the Automatic Air Vent has failed four times. AANW has attempted to resolve each failure without success.
In October 2017 I delivered our AS to AANW for resolution of several issues, the primary issue being the repeated failure of the Automatic Air Vent and loss of glycol overboard.
During the most recent flush of the Alde glycol system a substantial amount of light colored granular matter was retrieved and retained. The granular matter and a sample of the glycol was forwarded to the appropriate lab for chemical analysis. The chemical analysis reported the pH level of the glycol sample is greater than 10 and the inhibitor level was less than 2.
Alde US procures glycol from KOST USA, the product name is KOSTChill PG FG. In accordance with the KOSTChill PG FG Product Data Sheet (PDS) the pH of solution at 50% glycol is 8.0-9.5.
AANW planned to flush my system yesterday or today with de-ionized water. We have our fingers and toes crossed that this will correct the problem.
AANW has not informed me of any plan to replace the entire Alde system in my trailer.

[JimskyD]

Thank you CWO7241. I have been aware of "Mr. R***'s trailer". We have the same problem. KOST analyzed your samples and mine and they were about the same in chemical content. You had a 38% dilution mine was 50-50 but that was about it. I asked Patty at AANW to have you contact me. I expect them to stonewall my request.

I believe your system may have been compromised also.

[rmkrum]

The Alkaline PH of the fluid is a big issue--that is going to corrode the heck out of any aluminum in the system. What wetted parts of the Alde system are made out of aluminum? Apparently they are being dissolved fairly rapidly, the granular aluminum 'stuff' coming out of the system is a strong indicator of future massive leaks if the situation is allowed to continue. Need to look into why the buffer seems to be exhausted, and the overall pH has gone so high.

I'm not a chemist, nor do I play one on Television, but I do know that aluminum and alkaline conditions, especially in warm climates, can be really bad on the aluminum. Look at the corrosion you get from aluminum sliding glass door frames in direct contact with damp concrete. The frame quickly corrodes through, and eventually just falls apart! Just alkaline dust out here in the desert, if you don't clean it up and wash with a bit of acid in the rinse water, will eat into anodized aluminum window frames.

Had an old Fiat 600 sedan that had raw aluminum in parts of the cooling system. Incompatible antifreeze and really low-quality (highly alkaline) tap water used to dilute it ate out the aluminum, filled a water passage with 'mud' and killed the engine. Not fun when the antifreeze, water, and the metals in the system cause corrosion issues.

[JimskyD]

The propylene glycol circuit consists of mostly soft aluminum. The following parts are made of soft aluminum and contact the glycol: heat exchanger, supply pipes, radiators. There is also stainless steel, rubber, and a tiny amount of brass that contacts the glycol. I calculated approximately 6 ft-2 area of soft aluminum in the glycol circuit. There are no caustic cleaning operations anywhere in the fabrication of the Alde components. The glycol itself is formulated and diluted 50-50 in an ISO 9000 shop with tight pH controls and I am confident that alkaline is not introduced there. The mixture is buffered to pH10 but we are seeing pH 12+ in the actual mixture.

[majorairhead]

Originally Posted by JimskyD

Couple of corrections to this thread:
1. The Alde system itself is very good. They have extensive track record over many years in many applications. I believe it is the dealer that has the problem as this has only so far been seen on two trailers at the same dealership, Airstream Adventures Northwest. I have been to Alde US and it is a very heads-up operation and in no way should its reputation be degraded as a result of this problem with their system. On the contrary, their response has been over the top helpful trying to get this resolved. Spencer at Alde has been very open about all aspects of the Alde operation and wants to get to the bottom of this as much as anyone. Alde's response, if anything, has increased my confidence in their product and support.
2. Our trailer has been in the shop since March 4th, a total of seven weeks to date, instead of the nine I reported. It just seems like nine.

Well, I imagine a public apology is in order from me, to you, and to Alde US. It is good to hear that Alde has and continues to treat you well.

However, I'd still be pissed , and I'm still afraid of the longevity of the Alde system.

My wife and I have been considering a Classic, but sheesh, I'm not sure about all the 'ado'.

[paiceman]

Two units at one dealer with hundreds out there with no similar issue and 100,000 units over the years without the issues. Seems overly simple to me in the roof cause. As far as tear out and re-build, I’ve done it myself. It’s a pain for sure but not overly difficult and should be accomplished in a week by two skilled techs. However, after all your info I would not let this dealer near my trailer. I’d contact the factory and between AS and Alde they should be able to get your trailer to JC, fixed and back to you

[Foiled Again]

Originally Posted by paiceman

Two units at one dealer with hundreds out there with no similar issue and 100,000 units over the years without the issues. Seems overly simple to me in the roof cause. As far as tear out and re-build, I’ve done it myself. It’s a pain for sure but not overly difficult and should be accomplished in a week by two skilled techs. However, after all your info I would not let this dealer near my trailer. I’d contact the factory and between AS and Alde they should be able to get your trailer to JC, fixed and back to you

EMPLOYEE MISCONDUCT

Speculation only - an employee who hates his job and those rich customers inserted some contaminated liquid into the Alde. Gross guess - a bodily fluid.

Anyone "lucky" enough to have owned a business knows that hiring an honest, competent staff is an ongoing challenge. Drinking and drug use on the job - and resentment of any authority/ wealthy people leads to toxic employees.

Employees who are constantly trained and educated about business AND who get profit sharing benefits will eventually begin to "buy in" once they connect the dots. Also most older hires have aged out of the really anti-social behavior. A strong corporate culture really helps... humans tend to be herd animals and once half of your staff become enforcers, they help to thin the herd.

[james.mileur]

That would have to be some alkaline body fluid to raise ph that much. [emoji12]

[paiceman]

Originally Posted by Foiled Again

EMPLOYEE MISCONDUCT

Speculation only - an employee who hates his job and those rich customers inserted some contaminated liquid into the Alde. Gross guess - a bodily fluid.

Anyone "lucky" enough to have owned a business knows that hiring an honest, competent staff is an ongoing challenge. Drinking and drug use on the job - and resentment of any authority/ wealthy people leads to toxic employees.

Employees who are constantly trained and educated about business AND who get profit sharing benefits will eventually begin to "buy in" once they connect the dots. Also most older hires have aged out of the really anti-social behavior. A strong corporate culture really helps... humans tend to be herd animals and once half of your staff become enforcers, they help to thin the herd.

I've never owned a business, but have been responsible to the operation of two companies where I was recruited to turn the businesses around. Both had large numbers of employees and one multiple manufacturing operations. Your post is spot on with respect to possible employee sabotage, incompetence and or theft. We set up one manager for every seven employees no matter the department, it worked. Drugs were one of our major problems at the factories and at one location throughout the facility. My suspicions concerning this dealership and probably one individual at the dealership remain strong.

[CWO7241]

Received word yesterday that the most recent DI water flush was completed and the result was more precipitate found in the output. Not happy!

[james.mileur]

Looks like time to shift the rudder from, "What's the matter with the trailer?", to "What matters to me for the trailer?" (Plagerized concept from new VHA focus).

Figuring out the system is dissolving from the inside is enough data to focus on final resolution for you and at least one other, independent and parallel with finding the process or personnel issue that caused the issue.

I'd recommend go high and tight with Airstream for resolution.

[Foiled Again]

Originally Posted by paiceman

I've never owned a business, but have been responsible to the operation of two companies where I was recruited to turn the businesses around. Both had large numbers of employees and one multiple manufacturing operations. Your post is spot on with respect to possible employee sabotage, incompetence and or theft. We set up one manager for every seven employees no matter the department, it worked. Drugs were one of our major problems at the factories and at one location throughout the facility. My suspicions concerning this dealership and probably one individual at the dealership remain strong.

I can rant endlessly on this subject. My next rant is education - they teach kids how to get hired, but not how to (A) stay employed and (B) how to get promoted quickly and repeatedly.

Family life often creates first-time employees who are cynical, and who expect to be used, abused and thrown out.
And some bosses who never praise, pr acknowledge improvement, permit hazing or do it themselves reinforce that negativity.

Telling a 16 year old why good attendance is important shouldn't be necessary... but the Ah-ha moment that 90% of those kids have was an Ah-ha moment for me... and almost any new trainer.
------

In addition to womdering about a dealer's employee, it may be a factory problem. Someone cross-connecting the Alde to a propane line or to a water line/drain line? A nail or a screw penetrating a line or tank?

These two Alde systems need to be autopsied, and the Airstream factory and an Alde rep need to participate.

[JimskyD]

So far we only know of our high pH/Corrosion problem on two trailers here in the Pacific Northwest, specifically at Airstream Adventures Northwest Covington.

This may in fact be a localized problem or might be a problem that has not surfaced in other Alde Airstream installations.

One way to check to see if you have a potential problem is to measure the pH of your coolant fluid. This can be done by sampling the fluid in the overflow tank located behind the toilet in the Classic 30. Good fluid should be in the range pH <10.0.

Could you please let the forum know if you have sampled your fluid, what the pH is, and where you are located?

[james.mileur]

How test? Pool store or health food store strips?

[69SoulShine]

We have a 2017 Classic 30
Have had several issues with Alde Sys but not that.
But want to mention or fluid isn’t Purple it’s greenish Blue and do is the bottle we received from dealer when we picked up unit.

[JimskyD]

JoyUs has been at Covington AS for the last two+ months. Alde has a solution to our issue consisting of upgrading the boiler/flow unit from 3010 to 3020, flushing the system with DI water, and refilling with new glycol. They are also modifying the warranty on the system to mitigate the condition of the pipes.

I was somewhat surprised to learn that Alde has converted over from KOST glycol to Century glycol. The color is the same so you can't tell them apart. The reason cited is that the Century glycol is easier to obtain.

No one has been able to identify/resolve the root cause of the problem although Alde says it will not close the case until they have done so.

Covington AS completed the conversion earlier this week and has been running my system during the day, taking pH readings at the expansion tank several times a day. They use a General DPH7011 pH meter for the measurements. Alde has the same pH meter so they can correlate their measurements. I have the same pH meter on order ($130) so I can continue pH monitoring if/when I get the trailer back.

The DPH7011 is accurate to +/- .01 pH and is recommended by KOST. KOST also says that common pool testing methods do not give the needed accuracy and are not stable reading methods for investigating this type of problem.

Our system has been running four days now. The pH is creeping up. See the attached pdf I made from the measurements Covington took. I think that Alde/AS will have to understand and resolve the underlying issue before they can close our repair order.

Stay tuned!