ALDE HEATING SYSTEM FAILURE- Alde glycol discoloration and vent discharge

[JimskyD]

We have a 2018 Classic 30 that was manufactured in July 2017 and delivered to Airstream Adventures Northwest in Covington WA in September 2017.
We took delivery in October 2018 and discovered that the Alde system could only be controlled via the Alde control pad behind the drain under the galley sink. We resolved this by resolving a version discrepancy in the Firefly system.

Everything worked per specification until four weeks ago when it stopped heating. We still had hot water. I checked the overflow reservoir in cabinet above the toilet and it was empty. There was a 2ft dia puddle of glycol on the tarmac directly under the vent tube for the Alde auto purge valve. The purge tube behind the sofa was an opaque, milky brown color instead of the clear purple glycol that we initially saw at the delivery inspection.

We towed the trailer back to Covington where they have had it for four weeks now. The folks from Alde have visited the trailer. So far we do not have a cause of the problem nor a solution. It has been proposed that the system be flushed with distilled water, replace the glycol, and assume that solves the problem.

I am skeptical that "fixing" the problem without understanding the cause can (will) just kick the can down the road until the next failure.

Unfortunately there does not seem to be a repository of Alde system failure modes and solutions. It occurred to me that there may be unreported instances of the same problem in the Airstream community that I can perhaps access via the forum.

So here are my questions:

1. Do you have a 30/33 2017 or 2018 classic with the Alde radiant heating system?
2. Have you witnessed anything like what I described above?
3. Did you determine the cause of the problem?
4. What did you do to resolve the problem?

[paiceman]

Jim and Sharon:

I will respond to your questions as listed.

1. Yes - we have a 2017 30' Twin with the Alde system.
2. No - I've experienced and witnessed a lot, but nothing like a fluid dump aside from a small amount due to an overfill, but nothing like a different color in the purge tube.

My guess and this is a pure guess, after using the system for 18 months is the fluid in the area up front or possibly the purge tube only was not circulating properly and just sat there for the time you've had the trailer.

I think the flushing with distilled water is probably a viable start, several times however, not just one and with the pump on but heat off. Then dump it all out and do it one last time, three or four.

Then add the actual fluid back in and run the system, heat part and see what it does.

It's a good system, but does have some quirks and idiosyncrasies. That said it is growing in use in the RV industry - as I understand Winnebago has put it in their "B" class RV.

Keep us updated if yo you will and post in the Alde thread if you can.

Bud

[kendrick.l.j]

Welcome to the forum. As Bud said, the Alde system is great most of the time. I noticed you have not posted but you did join the forum some time ago. There is a thread devoted to all things Alde that you might want to read however I don’t recall anyone else describing the problem you have. When or if you find the fix please post results in the Much Ado Alde thread so we can all learn together.
I’m wondering if the color change has anything to do with the age of the fluid and possibly just lack of use. Jackson Center recommends draining, flushing and adding new fluid every 24 months.
You didn’t mention if you had twin or queen bed but if twin then please check your rear exterior storage area, far upper corner, road side, elbow joint to make sure it is clear and safe from the partition. This is a newly discovered problem that Airstream knows about. You can read more in the Much Ado Alde thread.
Again, please keep us posted.

[james.mileur]

Bacteria, from contaminated fill rigs or refill operations. The Alde manual for the "old" 3010 system on the '17s, available on the Much Ado About Alde thread, the current forum repository for most of the problems we have had across the participating owners, speaks of using only clean equipment for filling the system.

Just imagine JC filling all the Alde systems each week with the contamination controls used by a hospital for a PICC line - NOT!

Welcome to the BAT Club, Class of '18. If you would, please drop a copy of the 3020 owner's manual on the Much Ado thread for everyone that didn't get one.

[JimskyD]

Thanks all for your replies. The trailer is actually quite new, about 4 months on the Alde system. The fluid itself has small white particles in it. The front purge tube color was baby-sh** brown.

Alde says that all the glycol tubes, rubber parts, radiators, etc. are built to spec at Alde and Airstream just installs them. There are no contaminants used in the Alde production process so the components should be clean.

There is another trailer at AANW (2017 30 classic) that has a similar problem. Alde delivers glycol to Airstream in 55 gal drums so the chance of a batch related glycol problem from the same drum of glycol is low.

Alde is currently sending samples of the bad glycol for analysis. I'll keep everyone posted.

Should I repost on Much Ado..??

On a similar note, does anyone know if Airstream has a warranty database?

[kendrick.l.j]

Hi again, a great person to get in touch with would be John in Jackson Center, OH. Airstream factory Customer Service Rep. Great guy to work with. He is busy but he will reply. He’s the one to ask about warranty issues and he know the Alde System better than most. jpuckett@airstream.com.

[james.mileur]

Originally Posted by JimskyD

There is another trailer at AANW (2017 30 classic) that has a similar problem. Alde delivers glycol to Airstream in 55 gal drums so the chance of a batch related glycol problem from the same drum of glycol is low.

I don't understand your logic; batch delivery, reuse of fill equipment, inexperienced tradesmen using equipment without appreciation of bacteria contamination behaviors, etc. If you (or JC Tradesman) have added any make-up fluid or water while initial filling or during venting, etc., etc., etc.

55 gallons from one barrel in how many Classics over how many weeks, and how many or which ones came to the NW about the same time?

My money is on bacteria. Waiting for the follow-up report with 'bated breath

But, having debriefed the GEORGE WASHINGTON fire as a case study a dozen times with folks each time that were in the fire, outside the fire, just on the ship after the fire, etc., many different facts that were different than the "Report".

[james.mileur]

Originally Posted by JimskyD

I checked the overflow reservoir in cabinet above the toilet and it was empty. There was a 2ft dia puddle of glycol on the tarmac directly under the vent tube for the Alde auto purge valve.

Ms. Laurie, put down your coffee . . .

My guess the bacteria farts collected in the Auto-Purge and it stuck open a bit due to the goop. Two foot diameter isn't that much fluid. Have you ever checked the expansion tank?

The purge tube behind the sofa was an opaque, milky brown color instead of the clear purple glycol that we initially saw at the delivery inspection.

Unfortunately there does not seem to be a repository of Alde system failure modes and solutions. It occurred to me that there may be unreported instances of the same problem in the Airstream community that I can perhaps access via the forum.

Here's the best collection of the Forum on ALDE from the Beta Alde Team.
http://www.airforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162472
[/LIST]

xxxx

[paiceman]

Originally Posted by james.mileur

xxxx

James, totally agree. 55 gallon drum filling multiple Classics over a period of time in all probability nothing intentional but ripe for contamination and bacteria growth. Then if op added non Alde or water other than distilled one has real potential for issues concerning bacterial contamination and fairly rapid growth reinforced by warming in the boiler. Looking forward to test results, as my fluid was changed out at JC. I may take some out and look for contamination on my own

[james.mileur]

Agree with everything you said. That would be a difficult sample to get in the first place, then collect in a clean container, then keep in similar conditions, to simulate trailer system. Hope it works, but hope more the sample, and trailer are boring-ly non changing for a couple years [emoji12]

[paiceman]

I thought I would first look for contaminants as someone posted, I think the OP, that there were visible white substances in the fluid. My opinion, again, either the OP or a dealer put something into the reservoir, not to do harm but thinking it would help, either tap water or another type of glycol mix. Then if I see nothing, under microscope, I am not sure I will proceed.

[kendrick.l.j]

James - Thanks for the warning. Coffee was set aside, IPAD saved. LoL

[paiceman]

I took a very small amount of Alde Fluid out using a syringe, sterilized. Put in a petri dish also sterilized - neither to hospital standards but "good enough".

Nothing in the fluid that we could see, at all. It's been circulated after the fluid change out in JC two weeks ago, used probably about 36 hours and then shut down.

Time will tell, but two years would be nice.

[JimskyD]

Thanks for all your comments, energy and insight on this problem. Here are our updates and some incremental data points.

1. We have been in the shop now for four weeks. I am insisting that they do a root cause analysis before I take delivery.
   
2. There are two samples from two different trailers (2018, 2017 30 Classics) with apparently the same white substance in the glycol. Alde US is having them analyzed.
   
3. AANW (Airstream Adventures NW, Covington WA) claims that they have only used Alde fluid for topping off or replacement.
   
4. My Google search for bacteria growth in Ethylene Glycol says that bacteria cannot survive if the concentration is in excess of 25%. I understand that the target concentration is >50%.

Stay tuned.

[james.mileur]

You don't have ethylene glycol, Alde fluid in US is propylene glycol, like the food additive.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/show....php?p=2033601

[JimskyD]

Time for an update. JoyUs has been in the shop for a total of nine weeks now with no resolution to our Alde system failure problem. But a lot of insight has been gathered:
1. The attachment shows debris strained out of the heat transfer fluid after a few months of operation. There was about one half cup of debris removed from approximately 3 gallons of circulating fluid.
2. Glycol was dumped because the auto burping valve stuck open due to debris in the valve body.
3. The debris was strained out and sent to two analytical labs and confirmed to be aluminum. There was no bacteria or evidence of hard city water used in the 50-50 dilution process.
4. The pH of the precipitating fluid in our trailer was measured to be around 12. Specs are around 10. It is known that a pH 12 fluid will dissolve aluminum.
5. The fluid manufacturer is ISO 9000 certified and has tight pH controls around their production process. It is highly unlikely that they shipped pH 12 fluid.
6. The fluid is manufactured with a stabilizer that buffers the pH at around 10. Qualitatively it takes a lot of additional alkali to raise the pH from 10 up to 12. They are actively engaged in trying to track down the source of additional alkali.
7. AldeUS is a very clean shop and has no solvents or cleaners as part of their fabrication processes. I spent several hours there walking their entire process. They are very open Kimono about their operation and their lead technician is knowledgeable and interested in finding/resolving problems.
8. Alde has shipped over 100,000 of these systems over many years and this is the first time this particular problem has hit anyone’s radar.
9. My trailer heating system has had two flush/fill operations. The pH after the first was around 12. After the second it was 11.67. Both way above the 10 target pH.
10. There are two trailers at AANW with the same problem, both manufactured about 6 months apart.
11. They are doing a third flush/fill today and we’ll see what the pH is after that operation.

[kendrick.l.j]

Wow. I hate that for you. Guess I should be grateful I have had no issues with the system in the last 17 months of almost continuous use. Everything is running and working just like it should. Strange how this problem as only shown up at one dealer. Have you had time to share this information with Airstream HQ? Any idea when you might be able to use your AS? What a bummer.

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by JimskyD

Time for an update. JoyUs has been in the shop for a total of nine weeks now with no resolution to our Alde system failure problem. But a lot of insight has been gathered:
1. The attachment shows debris strained out of the heat transfer fluid after a few months of operation. There was about one half cup of debris removed from approximately 3 gallons of circulating fluid.
2. Glycol was dumped because the auto burping valve stuck open due to debris in the valve body.
3. The debris was strained out and sent to two analytical labs and confirmed to be aluminum. There was no bacteria or evidence of hard city water used in the 50-50 dilution process.
4. The pH of the precipitating fluid in our trailer was measured to be around 12. Specs are around 10. It is known that a pH 12 fluid will dissolve aluminum.
5. The fluid manufacturer is ISO 9000 certified and has tight pH controls around their production process. It is highly unlikely that they shipped pH 12 fluid.
6. The fluid is manufactured with a stabilizer that buffers the pH at around 10. Qualitatively it takes a lot of additional alkali to raise the pH from 10 up to 12. They are actively engaged in trying to track down the source of additional alkali.
7. AldeUS is a very clean shop and has no solvents or cleaners as part of their fabrication processes. I spent several hours there walking their entire process. They are very open Kimono about their operation and their lead technician is knowledgeable and interested in finding/resolving problems.
8. Alde has shipped over 100,000 of these systems over many years and this is the first time this particular problem has hit anyone’s radar.
9. My trailer heating system has had two flush/fill operations. The pH after the first was around 12. After the second it was 11.67. Both way above the 10 target pH.
10. There are two trailers at AANW with the same problem, both manufactured about 6 months apart.
11. They are doing a third flush/fill today and we’ll see what the pH is after that operation.

Sorry about your problem but, wow, keep us informed. I don't even have an Alde system but I'm intrigued by by the fact the "aluminum" debris (looks like what I flushed out of my Suburban Water Heater last Fall) and the PH imbalance hasn't led them to a definitive diagnosis. After all, how many sources could there be after the system has been flushed twice.

[JimskyD]

The proposed remedy is to remove all interior cabinetry and replace the entire Alde system, pipes, boiler, radiators, etc. Does anyone have experience with extensive dealership removal of cabinetry? Are other problems introduced? HELP!

[kendrick.l.j]

Jim, with all your Data I would certainly contact Airstream directly and bypass the dealer at this point. Essentially what you need is a whole new AS and the only folks that can help you with all that work is going to be at the Service Center in Jackson Center.