Battery charging: role of the converter when there are solar panels?

[Runaground]

We're newbies to rving. Our 2016 AS International has solar panels that keep our lead acid batteries charged nicely when exposed to the sun. Question is What happens relative to our battery converter when our AS is placed in our shed or at night? Is it designed to kick in at a certain point and bring the battery voltage back up? My factory installed converter doesn't seem to do that (I've already ordered a new one from Progressive Dynamics). Are there any special things I need to do when installing the new controller given that I have a dealer installed Zamp solar panel system?

[rmkrum]

In the interests of safety, be sure to disconnect the battery ground lead FIRST, and I would suggest turning off the solar charger if possible or parking in the shed to shut down the solar system. Disconnect all 110V AC shore power as well. No point in taking chances with electricity

You will be working with exposed wiring. Take lots of careful pictures, use good labels on ALL the wires, and double-check your work before reconnecting batteries and shore power. Verify everything is working correctly, including the solar panels. Read the install instructions TWICE. There are threads on the forum about replacing the old convertor with a new one, and they have good pictures about what to expect.

Note, if your current solar panels do not have a positive mechanically operated marine-grade shut-off switch between the panels and the solar charge controller, seriously consider adding one, ditto to the battery positive lead. Having a quick way to totally isolate parts of the system, especially the batteries, is a good safety feature...those batteries can deliver more than enough current to thoroughly melt things if a wire shorts to ground or some other malfunction occurs or is induced, like an errant wrench causes a short or the like... (don't ask me why I know this...).

[HiJoeSilver]

Rmkrum covered the basic electrical safety. Disconnect batteries completely during install.

"Question is What happens relative to our battery converter when our AS is placed in our shed or at night? Is it designed to kick in at a certain point and bring the battery voltage back up? My factory installed converter doesn't seem to do that"

Yes, as long as the converter has shore power supplied it should maintain the charge on the batteries. It should keep them fully charged. If the batteries were draining down, then there is a problem either with the converter setup or batteries. Use store switch may come into play as well, depending on how the trailer is wired.

[SilverHouseDreams]

Do the factory installed panels not have in-line fuses between the panels and the charge controller, and the charge controller and the battery? I found that to be the safest/easier solution on my system (dealer installed Zamp solar)...though my system is a lot less complicated/fancy than yours. I just pull the blade fuses whenever I am working on the 12V circuits, I also installed an actual power disconnect that truly disconnects the battery (including the LP detector).

[uncle_bob]

Hi

If the batteries are already fully charged, neither the solar or the converter will add anything to them. Simply put, if they are "full" from solar, the converter isn't going to do anything.

Further complicating this is the magical use / store switch. AS changes how this works from year to year and from model to model. There are even examples of it changing between examples of the same model in the same year. In some the converter only charges in the "use" position. In others it charges in the "store" position. There may even be examples where it charges *only* in the "store" position .... who knows.

The best way to figure this out is to monitor the battery voltage with no solar (as in at night ...) while you plug and unplug shore power. When the converter cuts in, the voltage will go up over 13.4V. When it cuts out, the voltage will slowly drop back to 12.7V.

Bob

[Runaground]

Originally Posted by HiJoeSilver

Rmkrum covered the basic electrical safety. Disconnect batteries completely during install.

"Question is What happens relative to our battery converter when our AS is placed in our shed or at night? Is it designed to kick in at a certain point and bring the battery voltage back up? My factory installed converter doesn't seem to do that"

Yes, as long as the converter has shore power supplied it should maintain the charge on the batteries. It should keep them fully charged. If the batteries were draining down, then there is a problem either with the converter setup or batteries. Use store switch may come into play as well, depending on how the trailer is wired.

Thanks HiJoeSilver, that's precisely what I wanted to know. And no, my converter is not bringing the batteries back up. Perhaps the new controller will solve that problem and now I need to explore this issue about the "store/use" switch. My book says it does not charge while in Store position but I think it's wrong!

[Runaground]

Originally Posted by Xipper

Do the factory installed panels not have in-line fuses between the panels and the charge controller, and the charge controller and the battery? I found that to be the safest/easier solution on my system (dealer installed Zamp solar)...though my system is a lot less complicated/fancy than yours. I just pull the blade fuses whenever I am working on the 12V circuits, I also installed an actual power disconnect that truly disconnects the battery (including the LP detector).

Thanks Zipper, I'll check that out. I certainly will install a marine type battery disconnect switch when updating my converter.

[Runaground]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

If the batteries are already fully charged, neither the solar or the converter will add anything to them. Simply put, if they are "full" from solar, the converter isn't going to do anything.

Further complicating this is the magical use / store switch. AS changes how this works from year to year and from model to model. There are even examples of it changing between examples of the same model in the same year. In some the converter only charges in the "use" position. In others it charges in the "store" position. There may even be examples where it charges *only* in the "store" position .... who knows.

The best way to figure this out is to monitor the battery voltage with no solar (as in at night ...) while you plug and unplug shore power. When the converter cuts in, the voltage will go up over 13.4V. When it cuts out, the voltage will slowly drop back to 12.7V.

Bob

Thanks Uncle Bob. I'll test that converter charging suggestion out when I install the new converter for sure. As for the "store/use" switch, YES it is truly confusing as I've described in one of my replies above. I don't trust what my manual (Or my dealer) says in this instance and will have to run your descriptive test soon. Thank you.

[KWN306]

I've owned two AS, neither would charge the battery when plugged into shore power without the Use / Store switch being in the "Use" position.

You can get to the "Use / Store" solenoid and rewire it so it will charge.

When we ordered the 30'FC I got the PV panels on the roof so I do not worry about the batteries being charged.

[Runaground]

Originally Posted by KWN306

I've owned two AS, neither would charge the battery when plugged into shore power without the Use / Store switch being in the "Use" position.

You can get to the "Use / Store" solenoid and rewire it so it will charge.

When we ordered the 30'FC I got the PV panels on the roof so I do not worry about the batteries being charged.

Thanks kwn306. When my AS is out in the sun the solar panels always keep the batteries charged up nicely, but when it's in its shed the batteries decline to 11.8-12 volt range (I park it there between frequent trips in the "use" position so that it stays cool in this Georgia heat with the a/c set at 78). I think the battery controller should keep my batteries at 12.7 or so, ie fully charged, wouldn't you?

[Al and Missy]

Originally Posted by Runaground

Thanks kwn306. When my AS is out in the sun the solar panels always keep the batteries charged up nicely, but when it's in its shed the batteries decline to 11.8-12 volt range (I park it there between frequent trips in the "use" position so that it stays cool in this Georgia heat with the a/c set at 78). I think the battery controller should keep my batteries at 12.7 or so, ie fully charged, wouldn't you?

Now, with a full understanding of your situation, yes, the converter should be keeping your batteries charged. In my trailer, the (old manual) disconnect switch leaves the converter connected to the batteries and disconnects the combination from the 12V distribution panel. The schematic calls it the "12V Kill Switch". The newer trailers I have seen disconnect the batteries and leave the converter connected to the 12V distribution panel. If that is your configuration, the USE/STORE switch should be left in USE, as you are doing, to keep the batteries charged. Make sure your converter is receiving 120V AC. On both of my trailers it just plugged into an outlet. Make sure the breaker that powers it is on, and that no fuses (if it has any) are blown.

Al

[capt_ron777]

This is a bit off topic but I'm new to this and any info would help. If one is out drycamping and using the regular "stuuf" in the As, lites, heat, hot water, how long can you expect to have battery power and what level should you not let the batteries go beyond. While I'm asking, same goes for the 2 propane tanks. Give or take how long should they last.? I guess I'm asking how long can you actually be in the boondocks for? Also, any other forums that discuss this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[Runaground]

Originally Posted by Al and Missy

Now, with a full understanding of your situation, yes, the converter should be keeping your batteries charged. In my trailer, the (old manual) disconnect switch leaves the converter connected to the batteries and disconnects the combination from the 12V distribution panel. The schematic calls it the "12V Kill Switch". The newer trailers I have seen disconnect the batteries and leave the converter connected to the 12V distribution panel. If that is your configuration, the USE/STORE switch should be left in USE, as you are doing, to keep the batteries charged. Make sure your converter is receiving 120V AC. On both of my trailers it just plugged into an outlet. Make sure the breaker that powers it is on, and that no fuses (if it has any) are blown.

Al

Thanks Al for the thorough reply. I'm going to take my volt meter out to the AS and do some investigations on the amount of power my solar panels as well as my converter provide to the battery bank. In doing so though I'm confused about some of the devices in the storage area of my AS. Can you identify the items in this photo from left to right (excluding the inverter module on the far right)?

Originally Posted by Runaground

Thanks HiJoeSilver, that's precisely what I wanted to know. And no, my converter is not bringing the batteries back up. Perhaps the new controller will solve that problem and now I need to explore this issue about the "store/use" switch. My book says it does not charge while in Store position but I think it's wrong!

[SilverHouseDreams]

The black box looks like the junction box for the umbilical cord (7-pin to tow vehicle). Then an electronically operated disconnect switch and then the inverter.

Leaving the inverter on will definitely drain the battery when on solar only, though it shouldn’t cause excess drain when on shore power.

That second photo doesn’t look like anything i recognize from an AS, looks more like a hydraulic valve on a wood splitter to me.

[HiJoeSilver]

The little black thing with 2 yellow wires just to the lower right of the black box looks like a 12v resetting circuit breaker. Possibly for solar considering the yellow wires.

[Runaground]

Originally Posted by Xipper

The black box looks like the junction box for the umbilical cord (7-pin to tow vehicle). Then an electronically operated disconnect switch and then the inverter.

Leaving the inverter on will definitely drain the battery when on solar only, though it shouldn’t cause excess drain when on shore power.

That second photo doesn’t look like anything i recognize from an AS, looks more like a hydraulic valve on a wood splitter to me.

Thanks Xipper. I've always wondered what the black box is. I guessed correctly about the disconnect switch and inverter. I've never actually had the need to use the inverter but I know it does work properly and never would leave it on unintentionally. I'm trying to figure out where the solar panel charge controller is? I'm under the impression that the small Zamp screen on the wall inside my AS is just a remote display?
Sorry about the log splitter pic. I just rebuilt it yesterday (successfully).

[uncle_bob]

Hi

If you are on shore power, there's no real reason to turn on the inverter. If you are on battery only, the inverter is a worse idea than if the sun is out. Bottom line - inverters are not a real good idea. If you can get along without turning one on, you are way ahead.

Bob

[Runaground]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

If you are on shore power, there's no real reason to turn on the inverter. If you are on battery only, the inverter is a worse idea than if the sun is out. Bottom line - inverters are not a real good idea. If you can get along without turning one on, you are way ahead.

Bob

Thanks Uncle Bob. I totally agree with you and have never really used the inverter other than to test it to make sure it's operating. As I've said earlier in this posting what I'm really trying to figure out is the relationship between the solar panels and the shore power/ converter in terms of charging my two in-house batteries. I think I'm now realizing that my converter is just not up to par and therefore have ordered a new Progressive Dynamics replacement.

[SilverHouseDreams]

Originally Posted by Runaground

Thanks Uncle Bob. I totally agree with you and have never really used the inverter other than to test it to make sure it's operating. As I've said earlier in this posting what I'm really trying to figure out is the relationship between the solar panels and the shore power/ converter in terms of charging my two in-house batteries. I think I'm now realizing that my converter is just not up to par and therefore have ordered a new Progressive Dynamics replacement.

The solar charge "monitor" your see is also the solar charge controller, Zamp only offers one model that supports a remote display, but even that one is an all-in-one unit that just has a way to also connect a small remote display. It is an all-in-one unit to simplify the install for their dealers. If it is a square shaped panel, that is the controller. If it is "egg shaped", then it is a remote display and the controller is somewhere else also with a display on it.

It likely looks like this, which is an all-in-one unit:


Or this:


This would be their remote display:

[SilverHouseDreams]

As for the rest of the 12V system in your picture. The silver bar with all of the white wires is the negative/grounding bus for the 12V system, to the right of that you find a black plastic isolated copper bus bar, this positive/hot wire for the 12V system. There will be several breakers built into that bus (, the lower terminals are the "output" side of the breakers (other than the very first one on the left, that is likely the hot feed from the battery). In my trailer all of the breakers are type-2, meaning if they trip you have to remove power for them to reset.

If your hot/positive 12V bar is similar to mine, the first breaker will have the battery feed coming in on the bottom and will act as the breaker/fuse for the entire system between the trailer and the battery. The next breaker will have another 6-guage (or large?) red wire connected to it, that will go to the inverter itself (in the power center). The 3rd breaker is the "charge line" on the umbilical cord. The 4th breaker is feeds the break-away switch for the brakes. Mine doesn't have any others, but it is possible they would have used one for the inverter as well.

I have no idea what the long black box is with the red wire going in/out that is located under the inverter.

As HiJoeSilver mentions, that small black box with the yellow wires going into it is also an automotive breaker.

You can try to find the schematic for your trailer, or email AS and ask for one. They are really handy to have, and while they may not be 100% accurate it will at least get you started and would help narrow down diagnosing issues. I happen to now know my AS electrical system pretty intimately.

There is a red and black wire coming through the hole in the floor, that is the feed to your battery...the other thick black wire is the umbilical cord to the 7-pin, which is then broken out into the trailer wiring in that shiny black box.

The converter is almost guaranteed built into the "power center" where you find your circuit breakers and 12V fuses. There will be a white and red wire that run from this area to the power center, and there will be a white wire that runs and connects to the "chassis ground" lug somewhere. The white wires will come out of the negative/grounding bus bar, red wire swill come out of the positive bus bar.

The roundish device with the red and colored cables going into it is the solenoid that controls the battery disconnect status, I am guessing...unless that is what they use to turn the inverter on/off, and the 2 fuses on top of it are likely for preventing reverse polarity from melting everything.