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Old 04-06-2011, 09:55 PM   #21
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I think the reason change within the WBCCI would be advantageous is because Wally, Stella,Helen and many others are gone today and people are no longer joining in droves. Preserving things the same on the basis of the way the club was when its purpose was to introduce recreational travel to the open road 55 or so years ago doesn't have the fit it once did. I don't think change is the harm. Now that different members are here I think they should fashion the club to their design and the older members should allow the change to happen.
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Old 04-07-2011, 03:28 AM   #22
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This has been a very civil thread. No one has Bashed once here. People have merely stated how they feel. The question was asked IF the VAC was a separate club would you be a member and people are stating their opinions.


Ken, it is much easier than you think. At current membership it would cost $4 a member.

Tim, Just suggesting you ask, you might be surprised at what you hear. As the future President, it is always good to know where those you are leading stand.

Grand Master. This is 2011 not 1954. A good deal of change has taken place in 57 years. I am sure you had a wonderful childhood, but we are not children anymore. Also no one here is trying to destroy the club you see so fondly through nostalgic glasses.

I have to also make a little correction. The Club(named after Wally Byam) was formed by people that went on Wally's early caravans as a way to stay "united" as they had on the caravans. It was not started by Wally. Wally was alive for less than 8 years after the club started. He was heading up caravans for most of it and very ill for the latter part. He did not dream up the club and he did not make the rules of the club. He did put Helen in charge and she made it run well. After her retirement there has been a percipitous drop that continues today. It appears that outsiders and few individuals have been trying for many years to destroy it.

Funny thing about Americans; most always look for someone else to blame instead of accepting their own failures. Instead of looking for a solution to the problem most look at someone to point their fingers.
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Old 04-07-2011, 08:22 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by 62overlander View Post
Tim, Just suggesting you ask, you might be surprised at what you hear. As the future President, it is always good to know where those you are leading stand.

Funny thing about Americans; most always look for someone else to blame instead of accepting their own failures. Instead of looking for a solution to the problem most look at someone to point their fingers.
Frank,

As I mentioned earlier, we are surveying all of the members for what we can do better. So, in that venue, if someone wanted to, they could make that suggestion. We are also surveying the past members to see why they left. With that we can see what we need to do to improve retention. So there is also opportunities for people to express their feelings in that venue.

The problem as I see it is
  • topics discussed here on these forums have a tendency to be viewed in a light perhaps other than they may have been intended.
  • there is already a history of VAC secession rumors being propagated right here as some sort of fact (I am guilty of doing that myself)
  • those rumors caused such ill feelings on many sides

The FACTS are
  • the VAC is not talking about leaving WBCCI
  • this thread likely will be viewed as some sort of movement to get the VAC out of WBCCI
And as an officer of the VAC who will likely have to answer for that, I am doing so summarily right here and right now.

I like the last sentence in your post - I re-quoted it above. The VAC is looking at our situation from a viewpoint isolated from the problems within WBCCI because we cannot control what happens within WBCCI, we can only control what is within our sphere of influence. We aren't looking at anybody else to blame, not even WBCCI, we are focusing entirely within the VAC itself to see where and what we need to do to improve the VAC.

I have no doubt that unlike other surveys that have been taken within WBCCI and then largely ignored by the leadership, we, the leaders of the VAC are looking at what WE, the leaders of the VAC, can do to correct things within. I can say that the discussions we are having are empowering and positive. There are no apparent walls of pride. There are tons of really good suggestions from people who obviously care a great deal about the club. I wish I could see this in wholesale fashion within WBCCI.
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Old 04-07-2011, 10:07 AM   #24
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"The only reason I ever considered joining the WBCCI (which I haven't) is so I could be in the VAC. I would join the VAC immediately if it were not a part of the WBCCI."
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Old 04-07-2011, 11:06 AM   #25
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Buttercup, you are now officially on the record as opposing the idea of the VAC breaking away. Consider yourself absolved of any blasphemy. Creating your own thread to discuss improving the VAC is a good idea. But I suspect it will go the way of all the Improve The WBCCI threads. As soon as a non member suggests something a doesn't like they'll be told to butt-out and let the grown-ups talk (no dog in the fight, etc)... Meanwhile a lot of us are sitting out the WBCCI nonsense and choosing to spend our time and money participating in other wildly successful groups. Just because you haven't been involved in any talk of VAC leaving the club doesn't mean the lowly members aren't. And why shouldn't they after the mistreatment that's so well documented here. The fact that you fear being summoned to explain your actions (either real or perceived) speaks volumes.

THIS thread posts a completely valid question. But give a Improve the VAC thread a try. Why are other vintage groups having so much success. Have you been to a Tin Can Tourist rally? And there are OTHER vintage groups not even associated with TCT that are having huge success. The Vintage Trailer scene is growing by leaps and bounds. If the VAC isn't experiencing it's biggest success ever, RIGHT NOW, then something is horribly wrong.

I'll bet there will be at least one Vintage Trailer club that is larger than all of the WBCCI in the next couple years.

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Old 04-07-2011, 12:40 PM   #26
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I guess some folks are not reading my posts.... My fault perhaps as I do get long winded at times.

NewRos, Thank you for your absolution, I feel better... I am curious, what volumes does it speak to you that I do not wish to have to answer a rumor that will be believed as fact? Its interesting you use the word "fear" - I don't remember using that word to describe my unwillingness to have to deal with a rumor somebody else starts and then walks away with no responsibility for the outcome of that rumor. That is very convenient for some, but not me.

Currently, he VAC has a good relationship with the leadership of WBCCI, why should that be once again jeopardized because someone tosses out a rumor or suggestion that the VAC is leaving the club when that is simply not true.

I think you may also be operating under a misconception about the VAC compared to other groups. You point out that there are other vintage clubs out there - that is great! I support that, I am happy for that. But the VAC is not in some sort of competition to be the biggest, baddest vintage club in the world. We have a target audience - that of the WBCCI member who is a vintage enthusiast. So, what we actually want to be is the biggest and baddest vintage club the WBCCI has ever seen. We are in no way in a competition with any other vintage club anywhere. We understand that anybody who is not interested in WBCCI is likely not interested in the VAC so what use can their opinion be? If there are so many other clubs out there like TCT, anybody not interested in WBCCI will not even look at the VAC.

Along those lines, it becomes pretty irrelivant to start a thread on how to improve the VAC here on these forums because there will be too many responses from people who aren't in the VAC or WBCCI - people such as yourself perhaps. Remember - we are an intraclub within WBCCI, our membership base IS the WBCCI, not really the general public. And you are probably correct, any thread like that will quickly devolve into a "WBCCI sucks" mosh pit. so it likely will not

I do believe the members of the VAC as a whole are not talking about the club leaving WBCCI because with the propensity of so many other wildly successful clubs out there, they would probably just leave. Why stay in the VAC when there are better options out there? Why have to make a choice between the VAC and another club at all?

In any event, I am sure there might be a few people who might wish the VAC to leave, but I cannot see them being a majority of the VAC members by any stretch of the imagination. As it stands in this thread already, there there isn't an overwhelming response from VAC members who would rather see the VAC pull out. There are far more people who are not in the VAC who say they would join if. We'll find out though. The VAC is already in the process of surveying current and past members of the VAC, which includes current and past members of WBCCI for input, so we are already gathering input form non-WBCCI members. But we are gathering information from people who used to be members of WBCCI and have experience with them.
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Old 04-07-2011, 01:58 PM   #27
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I shouldn't have substituted "fear" for your words of "deeply concerned". What your concern tells me is that you feel you have to answer to some higher authority in the club for something you didn't say, write, initiate, or contribute to. That is a burden a lot of us can't imagine putting ourselves through for a hobby club. I'm not suggesting the VAC should become the biggest baddest vintage club. But, the Airstream brand is the hottest brand in a very hot, rapidly expanding hobby field, The WBCCI & The Vintage Airstream Club should be the premier choice for these new owners. It's not, but a lot of them are joining other groups. You sound so accepting that a lot of people just don't want to be involved in the WBCCI and therefor the VAC.

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Along those lines, it becomes pretty irrelivant to start a thread on how to improve the VAC here on these forums because there will be too many responses from people who aren't in the VAC or WBCCI - people such as yourself perhaps.
A not so subtle, "butt-out, you have no dog in this fight". You almost got a "we want quality not quantity" in there also, but skirted around it.
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Old 04-07-2011, 02:46 PM   #28
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I am not familar with the entire workings of the VAC. However to belong to some club is apealing and the VAC would be my club of choice. However joining the WBCCI to be part of the VAC is the obsticle I will not hurdle. I have been a member of the WBCCI and I am not currently a member and will not be one in the foreseeable future.

>>>Action
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Old 04-07-2011, 02:47 PM   #29
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Paul why don't you add a poll to this thread?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Action
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Old 04-07-2011, 02:49 PM   #30
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I shouldn't have substituted "fear" for your words of "deeply concerned". What your concern tells me is that you feel you have to answer to some higher authority in the club for something you didn't say, write, initiate, or contribute to. That is a burden a lot of us can't imagine putting ourselves through for a hobby club. I'm not suggesting the VAC should become the biggest baddest vintage club. But, the Airstream brand is the hottest brand in a very hot, rapidly expanding hobby field, The WBCCI & The Vintage Airstream Club should be the premier choice for these new owners. It's not, but a lot of them are joining other groups. You sound so accepting that a lot of people just don't want to be involved in the WBCCI and therefor the VAC.

A not so subtle, "butt-out, you have no dog in this fight". You almost got a "we want quality not quantity" in there also, but skirted around it.
Well, part of making a commitment to something like the VAC means that yes, at times I might be called to answer the claims made by others which are unsubstantiated. The VAC went through this before over practically the same situation. It is needless and unwarranted. You are making a good choice for not getting involved in any club if that type of commitment is outside of what you are willing to offer of yourself.
But I should not have to answer a charge like that if the rumor mill is not churning full speed ahead, should I? It is akin to me saying "hey, what would you think if you knew that Joe Blow was cheating on his taxes". Note, I didn't say that anybody was actually cheating, I merely suggested for thought and discussion "what if"? How many people are going to come back and think to themselves "That Joe Blow doesn't seem like an honest guy". The process sublimates to the point that Joe is actually a bad person in many people's eyes and now is put in a position to defend himself against charges that are unwarranted and unfounded. It is the same thing - especially on forums like this.

As for the "dog in the fight" statement, it is what it is. If you are not a current VAC member and/or a past member of the VAC/WBCCI, where is your dog? The VAC answers only to its members, not to the general public who whimsically think to themselves how great the vac would be if it just left the WBCCI. We are entertaining comments & suggestions from past VAC members for why they left and current members for what we can do better. Being as you are probably neither, I fail to see where you would be able to offer a suggestion for how we can do it better. Somebody who is not in WBCCI/VAC currently or in the past cannot possibly comment on what we are doing wrong - they aren't in the club and do not know what we are doing.... You would be more successful suggesting to TCT what they could do better or how they should run.

You may be upset that you don't have a say in the VAC, but it is what it is.... If you want to deflect that anger onto me by suggesting I am seeking some sort of "Quality over Quantity" ... fine, I can deal with that. Facts deny your reality, but I can deal with it.
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Old 04-07-2011, 03:06 PM   #31
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Its interesting, but scanning the posts here I see that of the people who are in the VAC or WBCCI, the comment is that it should stay - at least I counted 5 (I may have missed a result).
Most of the rest of the responses are from people who said that would join the VAC if it were NOT in WBCCI - and they aren't in WBCCI.

So how anybody could draw any conclusive results from this king of survey is beyond me in the first place? I think the final results would be the same - people in the VAC/WBCCI would vote to stay in WBCCI, those not in the VAC/WBCCI would vote to leave.
Setting up a poll I imagine would net the same results, but it would have to be analyzed at some point as to whether a respondent was in or not in WBCCI and/or VAC.

It is a little like comparing apples to oranges.
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Old 04-07-2011, 03:07 PM   #32
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"Hey did you hear the VAC wants to break off from the WBCCI?" That would be a rumor. Asking a question is not a rumor but an inquiry. And actually Tim you just might have too much of a dog in the fight to post in a thread asking people what they think rather than asking you what you think. Paul did ask non members if they would join the VAC if it were not for WBCCI in the opening thread post. So maybe you can stop directing and let people express their opinions that you have already said are not important to you as a leader in the VAC since they aren't members. Perhaps this thread is one you do not care to join or should be part of. It is what it is...which is Paul's thread and an open discussion and not an invitation to be moderated by leadership. Let them talk instead of being so defensive as to curtail communication and exclude people depending upon your decision of how qualified they are to address the subject matter. Everyone has a say. This isn't a meeting, a committee or a report. Chill.
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Old 04-07-2011, 03:23 PM   #33
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Tim, disregard all of what I said. The VAC is doing great. You have picked an excellent niche market serving only the WBCCI member who is a vintage enthusiast. The rest of us vintage folks can just go else where. Good luck my man. Hope you grow the best vintage club within the WBCCI you can. GODSPEED TIM BUTTERCUP!!!!!
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Old 04-07-2011, 04:00 PM   #34
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Its interesting, but scanning the posts here I see that of the people who are in the VAC or WBCCI, the comment is that it should stay - at least I counted 5 (I may have missed a result).
make that six
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Old 04-07-2011, 04:41 PM   #35
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I'm rarely upset about anything and never angry. You're suggesting that the VAC is far more important in life than it really is. Let's put this in perspective, the VAC is a shining gem of a group of people with a very cool special interest, but it comes attached to a dodgy old club being run into the ground by a few militaristic old guys, in hats & ties, without email/internet, who camp on the clubs money, some want to do it in fiberglass class A's with full body painted swooshes (to promote Airstreams ). [Run-on sentence intentional!] Yes, Wally is rolling in his grave right now and has been for 20 years.

I merely pointed out there is an opportunity for the VAC (and the WBCCI for that matter) to figure out a way to embrace this surge of wonderful and fascinating people into our world of travel and exploration. I'm not sure how you added the posts, I see 8 that would stay or join if the club was separate, and 1 that would leave, 1 other that wasn't specific if he would actually leave if separate. Bring on the poll. As a leader, I would think you would want to know what your FUTURE MEMBERS are saying. Or have you written us off already?
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Old 04-07-2011, 04:44 PM   #36
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........ it comes attached to a dodgy old club being run into the ground by a few militaristic old guys, in hats & ties, without email/internet, who camp on the clubs money, some want to do it in fiberglass class A's with full body painted swooshes (to promote Airstreams ).
LMAO, that has to be an award wining summary,
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Old 04-07-2011, 05:06 PM   #37
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"winning?" Torpedoes of Truth! Bring it ( poll)

Facts deny your reality, but I can deal with it!
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Old 04-07-2011, 05:40 PM   #38
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NewRos,
Quite the opposite - I don't think the VAC is more important in life than it really is.... Not sure how you come up with that. I said that it is an intraclub within WBCCI, nothing more. That makes it just an intraclub within WBCCI - period.

I said that I scaned the posts and got some results - and those results still stand, those in the club want to see it stay, those outside want to see it go. You lumped everybody together to get the results you were looking for. We re playing tug 'o war with the VAC.... Yea, how fun.

Carol, It is so strange to now be on the business end of your heat. You are right, I have too much dog - we should entertain in the most public of venues a proposition that last time presented got the officers of the VAC in hot water, and they didn't really do a thing wrong. This is good idea indeed!
Paul asked 3 things.
  • How many would leave the VAC if it left the WBCCI and why?
  • How many want the VAC to leave the WBCCI and why?
  • How many would join the VAC if it were not part of the WBCCI and why?
And it does not change the point I am unsuccessfully making - this thread will, as it did in the past, probably lead to confusion and a misunderstanding that the VAC is in fact leaving WBCCI, which it is not. There are a lot of uninvolved and dis-involved people trying to sway what the VAC and WBCCI is doing... Why?

Frank, The VAC is what it is - an intraclub within WBCCI. It is not trying to be anything else or compete with anybody. But predominantly non-WBCCI/VAC people are talking about getting it to leave. So why is everybody trying to make it something it is not, do something it won't? What with all the "hugely popular" other clubs out there like TCT, what purpose would be served by the VAC leaving WBCCI. Who's needs would it really serve??? A few dozen people who have bunches and bunches of other options? Or is the VAC actually the best gig in town when it comes to vintage Airstreaming? If so, all those other "hugely Popular" other clubs aren't so popular afterall.....

I think I am seeing a totally new side to this story and that is there are a lot of people who would like to see the WBCCI suffer and collapse as precipitously as possible - the sooner the better. And by whatever means necessary they will make that happen - any means. I think that there are several people playing a game of chess - the board is this forums, the pieces are the various clubs involved - and the VAC is just a pawn in somebody's big game. This isn't about the VAC afterall, is it.... This is about the WBCCI.

Folks, I can see I am swimming up a stream of vitriol here pondering a scenario that has little to no chance of happening. Enjoy your thought experiment. I wish you all the success in achieving the exact results you hope to see.

Peace/out
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Old 04-07-2011, 06:13 PM   #39
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I think I am seeing a totally new side to this story and that is there are a lot of people who would like to see the WBCCI suffer and collapse as precipitously as possible - the sooner the better. And by whatever means necessary they will make that happen - any means.
Tim it's just like Casablanca "round up the usual suspects"
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Old 04-07-2011, 06:45 PM   #40
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Oh well, so must for that effort to find out what is in the best interest of the VAC.

Tim,

Over the years and seeing many posts from folks saying they would like to join the VAC, but they won't as long as it's part of the WBCCI and with people dropping like flies in the WBCCI over the past year (of which many were VAC members) I thought it would be a good idea to see where the minds (of those not joining) to the hearts of those that are members to the hearts/minds that have left would be and to see if it was leaning one way or the other.

At this point, I'm sorry I even asked.

With things like the "New WBCCI Constitution" driving even bigger wedges between membership and leadership which in the end has and will cause even more people to leave (we had an example just this last week) as an Intra-Club it might have been a good idea to see if it could stand on it's own as a life boat vs. going down with the ship.

I got my card in the mail today reminding me I forgot to pay my VAC dues, which I will do so shortly.

I think the leadership of the VAC has much they could teach the leadership of the mothership.

Hey, look at it this way, with each year passing you have that many more trailers/members to join.

Again Sorry!
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