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Old 07-11-2018, 05:21 PM   #61
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1988 29' Excella
North East , Maryland
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Dodge Ram Hemi 4x4 vs. Ford F250 Diesel comparison

Our son worked for Chrysler (pre Fiat) so we were Dodge people. Then we bought a Ford. Both trucks were short bed with a 4 door cab. Both were comfortable rides for the long haul. Both gave us good service although the diesel consistently beats out the Dodge mileage and fuel costs.

The Dodge Hemi 4x4 towed a 27', 7500 lb. Keystone travel trailer across country. Round trip from Maryland northwest to Idaho and then south through Utah to Tuscon and back across through Texas and Louisiana. Highways, gravel roads, mountains, desert and beach! Best case mileage was about 13 mpg. More often it was 8-9 mpg. The Hemi also requires the use of Premium Gas which is typically more expensive than diesel fuel.

Our current truck is a 2012 Ford F250 diesel 4x4 and we towed a 33 ft. 5th wheel weighing about 10,000 lb. across country (again)! Our mileage was consistently 14-17 mpg. When it is used as a daily driver our mileage tops out at 22 mpg highway.

We bought our second AS project trailer (1988, Excella 29) this past winter and towed it home from St. Louis the first week of January. This was the snow, ice and frigid week. Temps were 17 deg below zero in Ohio! The towing was all highway and the Ford towed like there was nothing behind it. The mileage was consistently around 18 mpg. This trailer is considerably lighter than the 5th wheel!

The diesel is more expensive and may seem like overkill; but the cost of ownership has been very low (no issues) and the life of the diesel will probably outlast us.

The extra margin the diesel gives us in capacity, safety and endurance is worth the extra up front cost.

Ladyfish
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Old 07-11-2018, 05:54 PM   #62
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Don't make the mistake I made and thought a F250 would pull the 9000 27FB Classic. Boy was I wrong. KNOW WHAT YOUR PAYLOAD IS AND CHECK THE DOOR COLUMN. The tire inflation label is the only place the trucks payload is identified. NO all F250's are NOT alike. Everyone has its own payload based on options. Just remember that the 27FB has a tongue weight of about 1250 with full propane, a GOOD WD hitch and loaded with all your stuff including fresh water, gray water, and black water. Now add you and your passengers 500# plus stuff in the cab (maps, water,clothes, etc) 50# for a total of 1800# with nothing in the bed of the truck. Add a cap (200-300#) camping gear (chairs, grill, Propane, generator, fishing gear, Bicycles etc now you payload is 2300-2800#+/-. Sorry, only the stripped down F250 can handle this payload. Add up your payload and make sure the truck you buy can handle that payload. Towing capacity is totally out of the picture. Almost any truck out there can pull an Airstream around. Payload is the restricting number. Don't make this mistake. Braking and Cooling overload can really make a bad day with any overloaded vehicle.


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Old 07-11-2018, 08:49 PM   #63
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Has anyone pulled a current model Airstream over 25' in camping configuration with both a 1/2 ton and a 3/4 ton and feels the 1/2 ton is the right choice? Not talking combined daily driver and TV usage but purely for towing your trailer.

Vintage trailers need not apply.
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Old 07-11-2018, 09:11 PM   #64
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I have for many years had a 7,000# SOB that I towed with my 2002 Chevy Silverado 1500 z-71 and my wife's 2005 GMC Sierra 2500. both had 5.3 L V-8 engines. Both had trailer packages and similar tow ratings. The 2500 slightly higher. The performance of those was similar. Tow down the interstate in flat Florida at 2,000rpm and 65mph it has to down shift to get over the over passes. To do that it would then rev to 4,500 or better to maintain speed. I sold both.

We now tow with a 2018 Chevy , Silverado Z-71 with a 6.6L Duramax. Much better tow package. We also up graded the trailer to a 2019 AS Classic 30. On the interstate in flat Florida at 65mph it does about 1600 or 1700 rpm. When a over pass comes up ……………..it just goes over the hill. No change in RPM, or speed. All at 13 mpg. (The gas engine trucks would do about 8 to 10mpg. ) I really don't care about the economy as much as capability and range. I buy trucks for what they can do. Then go do it.

My daily driver is ……………….. oh! yea I don't work.
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Old 07-11-2018, 09:32 PM   #65
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DKB-SATX you are right about turbo’s — now you might give us a list of all the gasoline pickups with a turbo — you might also want to let folks know about the fuel mileage of gasoline pickups vs diesel pickups.

My 30 foot 2016 Classic comes in at 10000 lbs (dry weight). The tongue weight is 773 lbs (dry weight). The truck canopy weighs approximately 200 lbs. The weight distribution hitch weighs approximately 100 lbs. As you can see, my payload without fuel, propane, water, people, etc is approximately 11000 lbs. I weigh just over 200 — as you can see, I am quite close to exceeding my 3/4 ton payload capacity. As for fuel economy, I am averaging 13.5 mpg with diesel towing my Airstream (average highway without towing is 22 mpg). I drive about 35000 miles per year and half of the is hauling my Airstream (my 2016 Classic already has 17000 miles on it).
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:16 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by PJohnson View Post
DKB-SATX you are right about turbo’s — now you might give us a list of all the gasoline pickups with a turbo — you might also want to let folks know about the fuel mileage of gasoline pickups vs diesel pickups.

My 30 foot 2016 Classic comes in at 10000 lbs (dry weight). The tongue weight is 773 lbs (dry weight). The truck canopy weighs approximately 200 lbs. The weight distribution hitch weighs approximately 100 lbs. As you can see, my payload without fuel, propane, water, people, etc is approximately 11000 lbs. I weigh just over 200 — as you can see, I am quite close to exceeding my 3/4 ton payload capacity. As for fuel economy, I am averaging 13.5 mpg with diesel towing my Airstream (average highway without towing is 22 mpg). I drive about 35000 miles per year and half of the is hauling my Airstream (my 2016 Classic already has 17000 miles on it).
Close to 2 million F150s since 2011 are turbocharged, was there some point you're trying to make with your snarky question? GM will add a gasoline turbo half ton for the 2019 model year, though it remains to be seen what its capabilities may be. Oh and it would take a decade or more for me to pay off the extra cost of a diesel 250/350 with the relatively small net savings on fuel of a modern DEF diesel getting 15 mpg to my 11.. Horses for courses... Some need a one-ton, some want a one-ton and some nether want nor need one. There's room on the road for all three groups.
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:07 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rgentum View Post
"Remember that that trailer only weighs 9000 lbs when it is STOPPED. Once it begins to move the mass changes and it gets heavier."

____________________________________________



Please explain how "the mass changes and it gets heavier" upon movement.



I guess I must have missed that day in physics class.


Well the original statement holds some truth, once the velocity of the trailer approaches the speed of light. Highly dependent on the frame of reference of the observer. In this case, the selection of the tow vehicle, whether it be a CanAm modified car, 1/2 ton pickup, 3/4 ton pickup, or 1 ton pickup is moot ;-)
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:37 PM   #68
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Well the original statement holds some truth, once the velocity of the trailer approaches the speed of light. Highly dependent on the frame of reference of the observer. In this case, the selection of the tow vehicle, whether it be a CanAm modified car, 1/2 ton pickup, 3/4 ton pickup, or 1 ton pickup is moot ;-)
Heh... Yeah, pretty sure we can stick with a Newtonian frame of reference for towing considerations. And even so, the difference in mass isn't real, it's apparent "relativistic" mass. (Yes I'm being difficult now, but for Airstreams on Earth, the mass is pretty much the mass.)
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Old 07-12-2018, 05:40 AM   #69
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We pull a 27’ Classic Limited Too

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Originally Posted by 2HotRods View Post
We pull a 2008 27 foot Classic Limited with the same GW. We started out using the 2011 Sierra 1500 with the 6.2L gas engine that had worked great with our smaller Bambi. It worked fine until the trip through the San Bernidino mountains. It did not have the muscle to deal with the inclines. We had switched to a Silverado 2500HD with the DuraMax diesel and Allison transmission. NO problems. The truck pulls like the Airstream isn't even there - and performs marvelously in the mountains. We talked to others who had the DuraMax and every one of them highly recommended the pairing.
2012 AS Classic FB pulled by a 2007 GMC 2500 HD Diesel LBZ engine. Absolutely NO problems in Western mountains (not hills), incline or decline. On the interstate, keeping it at 65 MPH is easy easy, with plenty of power to get around slow trucks and fantastic comfort. I would highly recommend a rear view camera that can be utilized during driving, but you are getting plenty of advice already. Nothing touches off a discussion like tow vehicles. By the way with full water and propane the front axle on the Classic was 3400 and the rear was 3150. The GMC was 4100 front axle and 3050 rear. Look beyond the light weight gassers..my two bits.
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Old 07-12-2018, 06:02 AM   #70
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So which truck weighs 9000lbs? And what about TT brakes? How much more does a 3/4 ton weigh versus a 1/2 ton? 1000lbs? Actually less than 1000lbs. So most of the argument about momentum is off based on weight of TV versus TT. If you want to tow with 3/4 ton great. But base it on different argument.
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:28 AM   #71
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It's not what you can pull, it's what you can stop. Go 3/4 ton diesel with an exhaust brake. You can't go wrong.
Agree.......Exhaust brake worked great on those two lane mountain roads two weeks ago.
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:49 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlinCal View Post
Has anyone pulled a current model Airstream over 25' in camping configuration with both a 1/2 ton and a 3/4 ton and feels the 1/2 ton is the right choice? Not talking combined daily driver and TV usage but purely for towing your trailer.

Vintage trailers need not apply.
I own both a GMC 1/2 ton 4x4 with 5.3l gas engine and a Chevy 2500HD Duramax Diesel 4x4 crew cab that I have used to pull a 25 ft Airstream in mountain driving. Guess which one I prefer. The 1/2 ton wil get you there if you are patient and careful. But it swill require skill and good luck to get past difficult situarions. I never felt completely save going downhill with the lighter 1/2 ton truck. And it was a slow trip going up. With the 3/4 tone diesel, all the problems just went away. The 2500 Diesel still has limits, but I don't run into them too often. Because the diesel is heavy and the 4WD is heavy and the crew cab is heavy, the payload sticker shows just over 2000 pounds, so with slightly over 800 pounds TW, I only have about 1200 pounds available for me, passengers, generator and motorcycle and fuel. Many people don't think about it, but fuel must be included in the payload. That is why some light duty trucks have small fuel tanks: so they look better on paper for the EPA tests.

Overkill in tow vehicles is never a bad thing.

Happy trailering.
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:21 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Daquenzer View Post
So which truck weighs 9000lbs? And what about TT brakes? How much more does a 3/4 ton weigh versus a 1/2 ton? 1000lbs? Actually less than 1000lbs. So most of the argument about momentum is off based on weight of TV versus TT. If you want to tow with 3/4 ton great. But base it on different argument.
I won't argue with your basic physics, but I will point out that many, maybe most, 3/4 ton trucks sold today are crew or extended cab and if trailering package is included, and a few other options like 4x4 and diesel engine, they DO weigh near 8000 pounds empty, So there is a significant difference between today's 3/4 ton and the 1/2 ton not so well equipped. My 1/2 ton GMC gas burner 4x4 short cab and short box weighs approx 5000 lb. So the difference is usually more than 1000 lbs.

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Old 07-12-2018, 10:45 AM   #74
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DKB-SATX your post about turbo charged gasoline engines not being affected by altitude was correct. The way you wrote it implied that all gasoline engines are turbo charged. The fact is most truck gasoline engines are not turbo charged. Your statement that 3 million F150’s since 2011 are turbocharged means that Ford is only selling around 300,000 turbo charged F150’s per year.

There is one overriding consideration about what size vehicle (1/2 ton, 3/4 ton, etc.) a person needs to tow a trailer. That consideration is: WHAT IS THE VEHICLE CARRYING CAPACITY? The carrying capacity is the total weight of passengers, and load. For those of us towing, that includes the tongue weight, hitch weight and load. Let’s assume that the carrying capacity is 2000 lbs, if the driver weighs 200 lbs, then the carrying capacity is reduced to 1800 lbs. if your trailer weighs 9500 lbs and the tongue weight of the trailer is 950 lbs (tongue weight should be 10 - 20% of the trailer weight) the your varying capacity is reduced to 850 lbs. if your hitch weighs 75 lbs, your carrying capacity is reduced to 775 lbs. We still have to account for any additional passengers and load, such propane, water, canopy, etc. as you can see, it does not take much to overload the truck. We also need to be sure that we are not exceeding the GAWR (gross axle weight ratio) of the rear axle since most of our additional weight will be on the rear axle (this is where weight distribution comes in). Therefore, the question about what size truck cannot be easily answered in a forum.

PS. The carrying capacity can be found in the label on the driver side post of the vehicle.

If the folks that are shopping for a vehicle will let us know what the total load (people, supplies, tongue weight, etc,) we can probably give you a starting point.
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:27 PM   #75
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My wife and I have a 2009 27'FB Classic. I first pulled it with a 1999 Dodge 2500 5.9 L gas engine. In 2012 I purchased a 2013 Toyota Tundra 5.7 4x4 Limited and I love the Toyota. It pulls the Airstream so much better than the Dodge ever did. A couple of things that I added to the suspension include: rear Toyota TRD anti-sway bar (self installed) and a set of rear suspension Firestone airbags installed by a local tire dealer. The additions were not necessary but provide extra stability that I like. The Toyota has plenty of power and I have pulled very steep mountain grades with it no problem. The Tundra now has over 70K miles and runs like new.
Phoebe, that TRD sway bar works tremendously for improving towing stability for Tundra's. Recommend anyone towing with a Tundra, to have this TRD swaybar installed.
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Old 07-12-2018, 09:15 PM   #76
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If a daily driver also is your tow vehicle I would recommend a Ford F150 w/ eco boost.
If not, a 3/4 ton Ram 2500 will take away any concerns you have and get you there with minimal effort.
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Old 07-12-2018, 09:19 PM   #77
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I have been pleasantly surprised at the good manners of my new F250 Diesel. These newest (2017 & 2018) SuperDuty trucks are easy to live with, except for parking...
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Old 07-12-2018, 11:06 PM   #78
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How many of you are willing to see if you are exceeding the CARRYING CAPICITY OF YOUR VEHICLE?

First, with your truck and trailer loaded for a trip, go to a truck scales and have the truck weighed. You may need to weigh each axle separately, if so add the weights of the front and rear axles. Next, open up the driver door and look on the post for the GVWR.

Please report both the vehicle type, the vehicle weight and the GVWR.

If your vehicle weight is greater than the GVWR, please just say “I have exceeded the carrying capacity in my <vehicle>”

I know that many of you have exceeded the carrying capacity because vehicle manufacturers only advertise what a vehicle can pull, not what it can carry. For example, my vehicle was advertised as being able to pull 23,000 lbs. since the tongue weight of the trailer should be 10 - 20% of the trailer weight, the minimum tongue weight would be 2300 lbs or 350 lbs over my carrying capacity and that is without the driver or any other load for that matter (add me as a driver and I would be 550 lbs over my carrying capacity. The vehicle manufacturer is selling you a pile of BS about your vehicles ability. I mean, it “could” pull that weight if it had not options, no driver, no fuel, no load, etc.

Do not be fooled about how much a vehicle can pull!
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Old 07-13-2018, 12:24 AM   #79
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A big negative for me with jumping from an F150 to a Superduty is turning radius. It is very annoying in tight manuvers both with and without the trailer to have the much greater turning radius in our F350 over the F150.

FWIW, I was completely happy towing our 28’ International with an Ecoboost F150. Plenty of power with the twin turbo in the mountain passes such as Eisenhower in CO and Jackson pass outside of Jackson Hole, WY and completely stable with a Propride hitch including many very windy drive days in western states.

Lastly, as I’ve mentioned on here before, I don’t see the point in the F250 in diesel Superduty. The F350 has about 1k additional payload, rides the same unloaded as an F350, and is $45 dollars more equipped the same. I’m guessing that some that think the ride is stiffer unloaded have driven an F350 with optional stiffer front springs over an F250 (camper package for slide-in campers or snow plow prep package).
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Old 07-13-2018, 04:56 AM   #80
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Quote:
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A big negative for me with jumping from an F150 to a Superduty is turning radius. It is very annoying in tight manuvers both with and without the trailer to have the much greater turning radius in our F350 over the F150.

.
My exact same feeling when I went from a 1500 to a 2500HD gasser. The 2500 is a great tow vehicle and general purpose highway vehicle. But the turning radius is a pain as a daily driver / grocery getter.



I have suggested before for a potential owner of a 250/2500 truck, take it to a grocery store or a park garage as part of your test drive. Then you will understand the downside of it as a daily driver. Mine is a dedicated tow vehicle so I can live with the turning radius. If it was a daily driver I would be trading it for a capable 150/1500.
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