Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 09-26-2016, 04:46 PM   #1
honi soit qui mal y pense
 
Robere's Avatar
 
2015 23' FB Flying Cloud
Bend , Oregon
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 181
Mystery water leak discovered on 23' FB FC?

Over the past few weeks I noticed water on the pavement on the driver side just aft of the tires from time to time. After investigating the usual suspected culprits and discovering nothing amiss I revisited the tech docs sent along with our 2015 23' FB Flying Cloud and was reminded that a pressure relief valve is part of the hot water system. Observing a pressure relief valve behind the sink above the leak and realizing the importance of such valve I suspected that the moisture was being exhausted whenever the water heater was over temp. To verify my theory I turned off the electric water heater switch and have not observed any additional water on the pavement. Not sure what the exhausted water will impact as it migrates out of the area behind the sink during pressure release. Any ideas?
__________________
Robere & Jacqueline &
Mia (the mini-poodle)
2015 23' FB Flying Cloud
2016 Chev Silverado LT Crew 4x4
Robere is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2016, 05:20 PM   #2
Rivet Master
 
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Sag Harbor , New York
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 17,523
If you open a hot water faucet every so often, especially as the water heater is coming up to temp, you can usually prevent the PR valve from blowing off water.

Also, you may have lost the air bubble which is supposed to reside at the top of your heater. To correct this, turn off the water heater gas and electric, turn off the water pressure, then drain the water heater, by removing its drain plug and opening the pressure relief valve.

Replace the drain plug and close the pressure relief valve, then turn the water back on slowly until it stops flowing. Then open a faucet until the hot water line (still cold though) flows freely without air also coming out. Go around and open all the faucets until they also flow with water and no air.

At this point you will have the proper head of air trapped inside the top of the water heater.

If you use the electric AND propane heater systems at the same time for quick hot water recovery, you are more likely to cause the pressure relief valve to vent, unless you open a faucet every so often as the water is heating up.

Inside the trailer, for any leaks or water spills in hidden areas, we plug in a Dampp Chaser dehumidification unit and leave it near the spill, similar to using one over the winter storage to prevent mold. It will accelerate the evaporation of any spilled water. Plugging in a small fan nearby to circulate the air helps as well.

http://www.dampp-chaser.com/home

These are low wattage units which work great in closets, basements, etc. to keep mold and mildew from taking over.

Good luck!

Peter
OTRA15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2016, 05:29 PM   #3
Rivet Master
 
Wayne&Sam's Avatar
 
2014 25' Flying Cloud
Cuddebackville , New York
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,333
Images: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robere View Post
Observing a pressure relief valve behind the sink?
The pressure relief valve is located in the water heater compartment, accessed on the outside of the trailer.

If you were looking behind the bathroom sink on the inside, you probably saw the back flow preventer for the black tank flush system.
__________________
2014 25' Flying Cloud Rear Twin
2019 Ford Expedition Platinum
Wayne&Sam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2016, 05:33 PM   #4
Rivet Master
 
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Sag Harbor , New York
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 17,523
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne&Sam View Post
The pressure relief valve is located in the water heater compartment, accessed on the outside of the trailer.
Good catch.

Robere, just to be clear my recent post was about the pressure relief valve at the top of the water heater. If yours was near the sink was it maybe on an accumulator tank? Or on a water filter perhaps? Please clarify the location of your valve. Thanks
OTRA15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2016, 05:59 PM   #5
Rivet Master
 
Al and Missy's Avatar
 
2002 30' Classic S/O
Fleming Island , Florida
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,668
Had you recently used the black tank flush? That valve, or its fittings, can leak. Have someone watch the valve while you connect up to the black tank flush fitting and turn the water on to it.

Al
__________________
“You cannot reason someone out of a position they have not been reasoned into"
Al, K5TAN and Missy, N4RGO WBCCI 1322
2002 Classic 30 Slideout -S/OS #004
2013 Dodge 2500 Laramie 4x4 Megacab Cummins
Al and Missy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2016, 06:05 PM   #6
Rivet Master
 
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Sag Harbor , New York
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 17,523
Our FC20 anti-siphon vacuum-breaker valve for the black tank flush system is hidden inside the wall behind the bath sink vanity FWIW. Is this valve visible in other models/years?
OTRA15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2016, 06:07 PM   #7
Rivet Master
 
Al and Missy's Avatar
 
2002 30' Classic S/O
Fleming Island , Florida
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,668
Quote:
Originally Posted by OTRA15 View Post
Our FC20 anti-siphon vacuum-breaker valve for the black tank flush system is hidden inside the wall behind the bath sink vanity FWIW. Is this valve visible in other models/years?
It is on my 2002 Classic. Just open the cabinet under the bathroom sink and there it is.

Al
__________________
“You cannot reason someone out of a position they have not been reasoned into"
Al, K5TAN and Missy, N4RGO WBCCI 1322
2002 Classic 30 Slideout -S/OS #004
2013 Dodge 2500 Laramie 4x4 Megacab Cummins
Al and Missy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2016, 04:29 AM   #8
Rivet Master
 
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Sag Harbor , New York
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 17,523
Thank you Al for that clarification.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robere View Post
. . .
Any ideas?
Wondering which pressure relief valve you might have been referring to, Robere, in light of the possibilities mentioned so far?

Thanks,

Peter
OTRA15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2016, 02:09 PM   #9
2 Rivet Member
 
2015 23' FB Flying Cloud
Omaha , Nebraska
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 65
The valve you see behind the kitchen sink in the 23fb is the back flow valve for the black tank flush. The water heater is on the curb side in front of the wheel well below the closet next to the bed. There is also low point drains below the pantry next to the kitchen sink. This is more likely the source of any leak.
dolson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2016, 03:48 PM   #10
Rivet Master
 
dkottum's Avatar
 
2012 25' Flying Cloud
Battle Lake , Minnesota
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,714
Your leak is most probably caused by expansion of the water in the water plumbing from turning on the water heater. There is a weak connection somewhere behind the sink, at the faucets perhaps, water filter, or possibly a weakly crimped pex fitting. The hot water expansion is forcing the leak, which will cause subfloor rot over time. Try to find the weak connection, the source of the leak.

The plumbing system is designed to have an air bubble to absorb the expansion of the water heater. The bubble is easily lost or absorbed by the water over time. An easy way to restore the bubble is hook up your drained external water supply hose to a city water spigot and the Airstream, then open a hot water faucet inside the airstream and then open the city water spigot. The column of air in the hose will go into the top of the water heater, and water will flow out the bottom of the water heater and out the open hot water faucet. The bubble is restored. If you drain the hose each time you break camp you will have the opportunity to restore the bubble at each new campground.

Turn off the water heater when not being used, such as overnight or when you don't need it, as a matter of routine. It's not desirable to have this excess pressure in the system.

An easy way to permanently take up some of this hot water expansion is to install a water pressure accumulator (on a cold water line). We put one under the bath sink, very easy to do. Screw it to the wall, take off the supply line below the cold water side of the faucet and put it on the accumulator. Then go to the hardware store and get a new line to fit from the accumulator to the bottom of the faucet. Clamp the lines as needed, if flopping around in there.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1270.jpg
Views:	214
Size:	129.0 KB
ID:	272467  
__________________
Doug and Cheryl
2012 FC RB, Michelin 16, ProPride 1400
2016 Ram 1500 Laramie Crew Cab 4X4 Ecodiesel 3.92 axles

The Truth is More Important Than the Facts
dkottum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2016, 08:05 PM   #11
3 Rivet Member
 
VTSmitty's Avatar
 
2013 23' FB Flying Cloud
Jericho , Vermont
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkottum View Post
An easy way to permanently take up some of this hot water expansion is to install a water pressure accumulator (on a cold water line). We put one under the bath sink, very easy to do.
We had the same problem, and among other things installed an accumulator (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1). This will also reduce the length of time your water pump comes on each time, especially if you're just using a little bit of water. We put our accumulator in the same place as the water pump, which left more room under the sink. Note that the addition of the accumulator shouldn't be the only thing you do: make sure your city water fitting/pressure regulator isn't leaking, and check the integrity of the crimp bands and fittings under and behind the sink. Unfortunately, the white back panel under the sink restricts your ability to see the plumping; we had ours modified so that we could remove a section and check things out.
__________________
Dan and Chris (and Lindy and Milo)
2013 Flying Cloud 23FB
2014 Tundra DC 5.7L / ProPride / Tekonsha P3
VTSmitty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2016, 10:46 PM   #12
2 Rivet Member
 
2022 20' Basecamp
2013 23' FB Flying Cloud
2001 19' Bambi
Fort Jones , California
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 37
I have the same model AS. If your leak occurs when hooked up to city water source only, it may be at the hose connection. I have been dealing with such a leak for over a year, but only when hooked up to city water and very rarely. Your water heater is curbside, so likely not involved in a drivers side leak.
Jack West is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2016, 02:39 PM   #13
honi soit qui mal y pense
 
Robere's Avatar
 
2015 23' FB Flying Cloud
Bend , Oregon
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by OTRA15 View Post
Good catch.

Robere, just to be clear my recent post was about the pressure relief valve at the top of the water heater. If yours was near the sink was it maybe on an accumulator tank? Or on a water filter perhaps? Please clarify the location of your valve. Thanks
OTRA15: Thanks for your response. The valve spotted behind the sink is in fact a check valve for the black water clean-out plumbing. Robere
__________________
Robere & Jacqueline &
Mia (the mini-poodle)
2015 23' FB Flying Cloud
2016 Chev Silverado LT Crew 4x4
Robere is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2016, 02:43 PM   #14
honi soit qui mal y pense
 
Robere's Avatar
 
2015 23' FB Flying Cloud
Bend , Oregon
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al and Missy View Post
Had you recently used the black tank flush? That valve, or its fittings, can leak. Have someone watch the valve while you connect up to the black tank flush fitting and turn the water on to it.

Al
Thanks Al. Yes in fact I did use the black tank flush fitting recently however the leak presents itself only when the hot water is on. Robere
__________________
Robere & Jacqueline &
Mia (the mini-poodle)
2015 23' FB Flying Cloud
2016 Chev Silverado LT Crew 4x4
Robere is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2016, 02:54 PM   #15
honi soit qui mal y pense
 
Robere's Avatar
 
2015 23' FB Flying Cloud
Bend , Oregon
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by VTSmitty View Post
We had the same problem, and among other things installed an accumulator (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1). This will also reduce the length of time your water pump comes on each time, especially if you're just using a little bit of water. We put our accumulator in the same place as the water pump, which left more room under the sink. Note that the addition of the accumulator shouldn't be the only thing you do: make sure your city water fitting/pressure regulator isn't leaking, and check the integrity of the crimp bands and fittings under and behind the sink. Unfortunately, the white back panel under the sink restricts your ability to see the plumping; we had ours modified so that we could remove a section and check things out.
VT Smitty: Thanks for your response. Do you have directions or a photo of the modification of the white back panel under the sink of your trailer? The Airstream factory suggests removing a panel of aluminum sheeting from the exterior. That won't happen on my watch. See my other responses. Robere
__________________
Robere & Jacqueline &
Mia (the mini-poodle)
2015 23' FB Flying Cloud
2016 Chev Silverado LT Crew 4x4
Robere is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2016, 03:02 PM   #16
honi soit qui mal y pense
 
Robere's Avatar
 
2015 23' FB Flying Cloud
Bend , Oregon
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackwest View Post
I have the same model AS. If your leak occurs when hooked up to city water source only, it may be at the hose connection. I have been dealing with such a leak for over a year, but only when hooked up to city water and very rarely. Your water heater is curbside, so likely not involved in a drivers side leak.
The trailer has not been hooked to city water during the time I've noticed the leak. The common ground is (1) heater on (2) slow intermittent leak on driver side just aft of the tires under the sink windows on our 23' FB FC. Thanks Jack West for your response. I'll get there eventually. The big problem is access to the plumbing fittings under the sink. Stay tuned. Robere
__________________
Robere & Jacqueline &
Mia (the mini-poodle)
2015 23' FB Flying Cloud
2016 Chev Silverado LT Crew 4x4
Robere is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2016, 03:14 PM   #17
Rivet Master
 
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Sag Harbor , New York
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 17,523
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robere View Post
OTRA15: Thanks for your response. The valve spotted behind the sink is in fact a check valve for the black water clean-out plumbing. Robere
And can you see water coming out from this valve? Does it have a plastic housing or the newer brass one? Our plastic one leaked but is hidden, so we have not replaced it yet.

This valve is not connected to the regular plumbing in the trailer, but only to its dedicated hose connection on the exterior, so it does not seem logical that it would leak depending on the action of the water heater IMO.

Thanks

Edit -- OK I see your other posts. This valve is not leaking apparently. I will hold off and let you clarify things. You might need to restore the head of air in the water heater per Post #2 and dkottum's Post#10.
OTRA15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2016, 06:41 PM   #18
1 Rivet Member
 
Radio Ranch's Avatar
 
2011 23' FB Flying Cloud
Paso Robles , California
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 9
We had the same problem with our 2011 23FB FC. It is repaired now, and this describes what is likely the problem with yours.

The city water inlet was leaking under the higher pressure of the hot water heater running without relief. Keep in mind that when the water heater causes an increase in pressure, it is seen on both hot and cold lines.

The city water inlet is a two piece plastic housing that is screwed together. Airstream connects to this inlet with a stiff section of PEX that pulls downward on the inlet, causing a slight separation of the castings. With pressure in the line (and the separation of the castings), a leak occurs.

The solution is to replace the city water inlet, and connect it with a section of flexible appliance hose (like you'd find under a sink). Provide strain relief to the casting and the problem will go away. Any plumbing supplier will have a hose with proper connections (use right angle to the water inlet).

If you carefully pull the four screws of the inlet and pull it out, you will probably find that the side of the castings is wet, as is the insulation in the wall below the inlet. Mine became obvious.

-John
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Leaks #1.pdf (793.0 KB, 131 views)
Radio Ranch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2016, 07:08 PM   #19
honi soit qui mal y pense
 
Robere's Avatar
 
2015 23' FB Flying Cloud
Bend , Oregon
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radio Ranch View Post
We had the same problem with our 2011 23FB FC. It is repaired now, and this describes what is likely the problem with yours.

The city water inlet was leaking under the higher pressure of the hot water heater running without relief. Keep in mind that when the water heater causes an increase in pressure, it is seen on both hot and cold lines.

The city water inlet is a two piece plastic housing that is screwed together. Airstream connects to this inlet with a stiff section of PEX that pulls downward on the inlet, causing a slight separation of the castings. With pressure in the line (and the separation of the castings), a leak occurs.

The solution is to replace the city water inlet, and connect it with a section of flexible appliance hose (like you'd find under a sink). Provide strain relief to the casting and the problem will go away. Any plumbing supplier will have a hose with proper connections (use right angle to the water inlet).

If you carefully pull the four screws of the inlet and pull it out, you will probably find that the side of the castings is wet, as is the insulation in the wall below the inlet. Mine became obvious.

-John
Thanks John. Since the trailer has not been hooked up to city water for more than a month and the problem persists when the water heater is on I'm trying to visualize what you have written. I'll pull off the city inlet water fitting and post what I find. Lots of good brains helping out here, including yours. Don't you just love plumbing challenges? Robere

Just checked the area within the opening to the city water connection and the adjacent insulation. No moisture present. Now to plan B.
__________________
Robere & Jacqueline &
Mia (the mini-poodle)
2015 23' FB Flying Cloud
2016 Chev Silverado LT Crew 4x4
Robere is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2016, 10:03 PM   #20
honi soit qui mal y pense
 
Robere's Avatar
 
2015 23' FB Flying Cloud
Bend , Oregon
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkottum View Post
Your leak is most probably caused by expansion of the water in the water plumbing from turning on the water heater. There is a weak connection somewhere behind the sink, at the faucets perhaps, water filter, or possibly a weakly crimped pex fitting. The hot water expansion is forcing the leak, which will cause subfloor rot over time. Try to find the weak connection, the source of the leak.

The plumbing system is designed to have an air bubble to absorb the expansion of the water heater. The bubble is easily lost or absorbed by the water over time. An easy way to restore the bubble is hook up your drained external water supply hose to a city water spigot and the Airstream, then open a hot water faucet inside the airstream and then open the city water spigot. The column of air in the hose will go into the top of the water heater, and water will flow out the bottom of the water heater and out the open hot water faucet. The bubble is restored. If you drain the hose each time you break camp you will have the opportunity to restore the bubble at each new campground.

Turn off the water heater when not being used, such as overnight or when you don't need it, as a matter of routine. It's not desirable to have this excess pressure in the system.

An easy way to permanently take up some of this hot water expansion is to install a water pressure accumulator (on a cold water line). We put one under the bath sink, very easy to do. Screw it to the wall, take off the supply line below the cold water side of the faucet and put it on the accumulator. Then go to the hardware store and get a new line to fit from the accumulator to the bottom of the faucet. Clamp the lines as needed, if flopping around in there.
After consideration and further investigation I feel that your resolution may be of the highest probability Doug. Now to gain access to the plumbing. That may be a bit challenging. Robere
__________________
Robere & Jacqueline &
Mia (the mini-poodle)
2015 23' FB Flying Cloud
2016 Chev Silverado LT Crew 4x4
Robere is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Exploded hot water tank discovered Bertiesue Classic Motorhomes 5 04-28-2012 08:16 PM
Discovered how to increase water pressure! HCR Fresh Water Systems 6 01-15-2011 01:50 PM
ALUMAPHOBIA, Newly discovered diagnosis hhendrix Off Topic Forum 3 05-15-2010 07:07 PM
Hello, I recently discovered this forum infinite LUX Our Community 13 07-31-2003 08:20 AM


Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Airstream, Inc. or any of its affiliates. Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:29 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.