Is it possible to use a car to tow a 19' or 20' airstream?

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by rostam

This is the exact reason I do not like such experimental recommendations. IMO, when you are making a recommendation to someone (not just TV, but on anything), you should be intentionally conservative, to make sure you are not putting the other party in trouble. You should always consider the possibility that you are wrong, and recommend accordingly.

In main I agree that "we" should offer advice that is conservative. But it doesn't excuse us from examination of what is best or why.

The focus on "weights" is misplaced. It is but one aspect of setting up a combined rig. The default recommendation of the worst handling & braking vehicle type -- a pickup -- is only good where the operator intends to carry a big payload in the tow vehicle. Not to mention that the OEM and aftermarket hitch receivers are in no way as good as a custom-built one as that is what any of us used in the 1960's & 70's before there was such a thing as a bolt on receiver or factory offering. The standard for an OEM hitch is low, and not always up to what a weight distribution hitch should be able to deliver.

"Experimental" would be an operator learning how to adapt to a tow vehicle that solo or hitched is inferior in every dynamic. CAN AM has set up more than ten thousand combinations. I'd not worry over it a bit.

Be sensible, practice backing and get a great set of towing mirrors.

.

[rostam]

I think the role of handling is being greatly exaggerated in such discussions. We are not talking about auto rally here, but towing. Pulling power, stopping power, and stability all trump handling and a truck or large/midsize SUV easily beats a sedan in those departments.

I suggest the OP does a test tow with a friend's pickup/SUV and compare it with his/her sedan, as I doubt this discussion will get anywhere.

[COLONEL]

TV 1992 Oldsmobile Custom Cruiser / 1958 FC
Works for us!
Dick Deam
3667

[Road Ruler]

Originally Posted by rostam

I think the role of handling is being greatly exaggerated in such discussions. We are not talking about auto rally here, but towing. Pulling power, stopping power, and stability all trump handling and a truck or large/midsize SUV easily beats a sedan in those departments.

I suggest the OP does a test tow with a friend's pickup/SUV and compare it with his/her sedan, as I doubt this discussion will get anywhere.

This is what many don't understand. Generally speaking the performance sedans out perform the other vehicles you spoke off. Review Andrew T's posts and performance tests. The data and info is out there.

[Len n Jeanne]

A lot depends upon what type of camping and driving you do.

A sedan would truly limit our preferred type of camping. We like to go to semi-wild places, drop the trailer in the campsite, and then take off for a day's outing. Generally our destinations require some driving on rough dirt roads. We usually need a high-clearance vehicle, preferably 4WD. (For example, getting to Kintla and Bowman Lakes at Glacier NP, or exploring the San Rafael Swell in Utah.)

If people wouldn't normally go off the pavement, then a sedan should work just as well.

We normally drive in mountainous terrain, including over major mountain passes. If someone's sedan has enough power to tow a loaded trailer over a high pass without creeping along at 20 mph in the right-hand land behind the semis, and are happy doing it, they don't need a big truck. Ditto if they never leave the flat lands.

If folks are happy campers without bringing gear that wouldn't fit into the sedan trunk or trailer, then they probably don't need a truck. Probably they don't boondock so they're OK without a generator, gas can, extra jerry can of water, paddling gear, backpacks, &c.

But this conversation does make one wonder why auto manufacturers post towing limits and GVWRs to begin with if they are so pointless.

We just traded up from a V6 Tacoma to a V8 Tundra, and are really happy with the way it handles towing our newer, heavier trailer. We don't seem to be losing much gas mileage on the highway, maybe because the engine isn't working so hard.

Ah, well. To each their own.

[Road Ruler]

Originally Posted by Len n Jeanne

If someone's sedan has enough power to tow a loaded trailer over a high pass without creeping along at 20 mph in the right-hand land behind the semis, and are happy doing it, they don't need a big truck. Ditto if they never leave the flat lands.

We just traded up from a V6 Tacoma to a V8 Tundra, and are really happy with the way it handles towing our newer, heavier trailer.

creeping along at 20 mph????

Just because one tows with a sedan why assume they would be creeping along at 20MPH? Our 11 year old sedan has a modest 260HP V6 and our rig towing the 23' weighs 9,200lbs ready for travel.

Your new Toyota Tundra 380HP V8 towing your 19" rft weighs 13,500 lbs.

Our car equates to 35.6 LBS/1 HP and your Tundra works out to 35.5 LBS/1 HP. Bottom line, the cars are going to pull just as strong as most trucks.

PS... you are right about off roading with the cars. They don't work as well as the high clearance vehicles.

[rostam]

RoadRuler,

Suppose a BMW 3 series (or any sedan of your preference) and a Ram 2500 pull the exact 8000# trailer using the exact top of the line hitch up and down a long grade. In your opinion, which would pull/stop better and is more stable up and down the grade?

[timhortons]

Originally Posted by subfan1

I agree with the previous post, do a search here. Specifically Crysler 300 (very expensive modifications to car)
The BMW's are not too expensive but, any German add ons are going to be pricey. Hitches, harness etc

A strange turn on this thread. 2k in towing setup to multipurpose a 10-15k used V6 sedan for a 60k trailer is "very expensive", but BMWs are "not too expensive".

some USED BMWs aren't "expensive" because the owners got tired of seeing "Gunter" at the service department, and of feeding them pricey german parts and walk away from 40k in depreciation after 3 years.

Either way you're going to pay up. Buying a 50kSUV or a 60k+ heavy duty diesel truck to drive to the supermarket 90% of the time isn't great value either. Does anyone have a rule of thumb as to what % of the time their chosen TV spends driving highway/city and standalone/towing ? I'm using 50/50 and 66/33 respectively as my guesstimates.

[timhortons]

I'd like to see the video of the airstreamers hard core "offroading". Preferably having just given the clearcoat a nice wash/shine.

[subfan1]

You're right but, I meant to say the BMWs hitch modifications may not be as expensive as the sedans hitch modifications. I hope that reads clearer.


Sent from my iPhone using Airstream Forums

[Stefrobrts]

My tow vehicle spends very little time towing, which is why we didn't want to end up with another van/truck when we upgraded this year. With our van we paid the price in gas all year around, just so we could tow a few times a summer. If you are working stiffs like us who don't get out very often, having a vehicle that can tow AND not break the bank the rest of the time is a huge consideration.

[Road Ruler]

Originally Posted by rostam

RoadRuler,

Suppose a BMW 3 series (or any sedan of your preference) and a Ram 2500 pull the exact 8000# trailer using the exact top of the line hitch up and down a long grade. In your opinion, which would pull/stop better and is more stable up and down the grade?

From a previous post from Andrew T......

"One year a junior engineer from one of the auto companies really took me to task during my seminar at the Hensley rally. His issue was the liability of the stopping distance of Colin Connell’s combination. At the time he was towing a 34 Airstream with a Cadillac DTS. The engineer was towing a 32' conventional trailer with a HD 3/4 ton pick-up. I asked him if he had spent time on the proving grounds which he had. I then asked him which would stop in a shorter distance his truck or the DTS as solo vehicles. He had to admit that the DTS would stop in a much shorter distance. Then I asked him if you could stop just the trailers which would stop faster. His with four 12" brakes and Light truck tires or Colin’s with six 12" brakes and 60 series, sticky high performance tires. Well it was obvious that Collin’s trailer had way more stopping ability and he admitted that. Then asked him why would your truck which needs more room to stop and your trailer that needs more room to stop suddenly stop in less distance when you hook them together? That was without getting into the lousy brake control he had. He then asked about brake fade in mountain driving which again was no contest as the Diesel without an exhaust brake would not be able to control speed like the gas engine in the Cadillac.

I rarely use the brakes in mountains as even the 3.5 Liter Intrepid has enough engine braking to control the combination. After the seminar I took him out for a test drive in the Intrepid and 34' and he just could not believe how it stopped and the violent maneuvers it could handle he had to admit it was likely better than his truck solo. He did buy a Hensley before left.

One of our customers towed his 34' Airstreams first with an 83 Caprice then with a 89 Bonneville SSE then he retired and decided that since he was not driving downtown to work every day that he would try a 97 Suburban which we modified with wider rims, performance tires and gas charged shocks. He is in my opinion a capable driver who has towed extensively for 23 years and has a good feel for driving. He was traveling in the center lane of the interstate and an accident happened right in front of him as he crested a hill. There was no place to go other than median which he did not see as a problem. It turned out to have an increasing amount of a slope. The further he went and he wound up with the trailer on its side and the truck on its roof. He was shocked at how easily it seemed to roll. It was not a jack knife or sway situation it was all still in a straight line. The surprising thing was when we examined the hitch it was the Suburban that rolled the trailer not the other way around. He has towed with a Cadillac DTS ever since and you would never get him back into a vehicle with a high center of gravity."

[MrUKToad]

Originally Posted by Stefrobrts

My tow vehicle spends very little time towing...

... which is something that is often overlooked when people are looking for a tow vehicle. Our TV is also our daily driver and tows comparatively little, so we really didn't need a huge truck that would have been a practical and financial liability, hence the choice of our surprisingly capable Minivan. Sure, cars, SUVs and Minivans won't suit all tastes but, despite that, they can very often tow Airstreams just as effectively as their bigger cousins.

[Len n Jeanne]

Road Ruler, I'll have to defer to your superior knowledge. But I wonder why in BC, Montana, Idaho, and other parts West, we hardly ever see a sedan towing a trailer. What do all of these other drivers know?

A Cadillac would be the last type of vehicle we would want. I guess we could get it up our steep unpaved driveway, but I wouldn't want to risk it.

One possibility is that it isn't the towing that is the consideration (apart from 5th wheels,) but all the other things people use their trucks for out here. Such as hauling firewood, large beer coolers, gardening supplies, fishing nets and life jackets, or other bulky stuff. Where we live, a truck comes in really handy for non-towing purposes.

Which gets back to one point about Can-Am. We feel really grateful towards them, having bought our first AS from them, and appreciating their helpful service. But southern Ontario is comparatively flat and most of the roads leading to campsites are paved. In fact, our salesman convinced us when we purchased Bambi the First that a single small battery would be just fine for our camping purposes; apparently because he didn't think we'd go boondocking often. (!)

With the truck, we can drop the trailer in an easy-to-get-to campsite as a sort of base camp, and then go off and do fun stuff on roads where we wouldn't take an AS-- or a Cadillac. High centre of gravity? Sure-- to avoid bottoming out. But with the longer wheel base of a truck (vs. some of the shorter SUVs) hopefully we've gained some stability.

[Len n Jeanne]

I might also mention that 4WD is not a seldom-used luxury out here, but pretty normal for winter driving.

We made the retirement decision to get by with just one vehicle for all of our uses, and made the right one in getting a truck.

[MaineStreamer]

The focus on weight of the tow vehicle is not misguided. The issue is mass and momentum, as well as breaking power, stability, traction, and other factors. It is quite easy to imagine a situation where a trailer is being pulled by a vehicle of insufficient mass to prevent the trailer from causing the tow vehicle from being flipped or otherwise forced into an accident. A person I know learned that lesson the hard way when a heavy load he was pulling in a cargo trailer caused his pickup truck to be flipped off the road in an accident.

[slpiotro]

Originally Posted by MrUKToad

... which is something that is often overlooked when people are looking for a tow vehicle. Our TV is also our daily driver and tows comparatively little, so we really didn't need a huge truck that would have been a practical and financial liability, hence the choice of our surprisingly capable Minivan. Sure, cars, SUVs and Minivans won't suit all tastes but, despite that, they can very often tow Airstreams just as effectively as their bigger cousins.

This gets to why I love our SUV as a TV. Yes it can pull the trailer (23 ft safari) easily up the rocky mountains, often passing the pick ups pulling other brands, and when not pulling, I get 30 mpg on the highway. It drops to 15-18 when pulling but it still rides well. The 7 gears allow engine braking downhill and a decent hitch keeps it stable. I have room in my driveway to park the trailer with a two inch overhang on the sidewalk, and the car stays on the street. It works, and works well. Ask any of the folks towing with new style Mercedes, VW's and even Audi's with the diesel engines, and they all love the vehicles and their Airstreams. Costs about the same as your new pickup. Our ML has four wheel drive, air lift of three to four inches for off road, under frame rock guards, and can go further than I want to go down dirt trails and barely marked roads. It works well for us. (and I drove semis and buses professionally for several years, which gives me some feel for how it works). The room in the suv hauls most of what we want, solar power on the trailer avoids the generator. Biggest negative is no blue boy for long stays, but I easily move it to dump and back when needed. I am one happy camper.

[timhortons]

>But I wonder why in BC, Montana, Idaho, and other parts West, we hardly ever see a >sedan towing a trailer.

Because Americans love trucks. Love em' Starting point for TV Selection is usually whats in the driveway.According to my television all Real Americans already own a truck. Trucks look GMC tough. Some trucks have huge engines which is important when you want to accelerate up the rocky mountians while doing 85MPH both ways. You can use engine breaking to stop in less than 300ft and blow smoke like a coal engine in you mess with the injectors in your RAM.

In a truck you sit higher on bigger tires and feel more important. Also you can drive further over rocky terrain and clear the rear differential until your tires explode. When you hit someone in a little Japanese compact your bumper sometimes ends up in their face.

Even the commercials are more manly. You can powerSTROKE, or duraMAX, haul a huge LOAD of weaponry for your hunting buddies in the CREW CAB, liftgate, COLD STAMPED FORD TOUGH STEEL and bring that elusive sofa that the damsel in distress needs moved in the ads. Or go to Walmart and load the bed with 50,000 twinkies before they're discontinued again. You can get them with a frame so the panels rattle and shake as you go down the road.

Trucks have tougher names too, F-You series, HD2500, RAM, Ridgeline, Tundra, GMC, Max, Sierra, Dodge, Ram, Shove

Granted they have a high center of gravity and some of them seem to have rear suspension taken from a model T, sometimes they don't stop and sometimes they rollover and don't get up. Hit or miss stability and the gas mileage is nothing to write to Grandma about.

But nobody lives forever right ?

[SteveSueMac]

Timhortons - you wake up on the wrong side of the floor today :-D

Enjoy your truck :-)

[dkottum]

Here's an old thread on this very topic, read it and decide for yourself. The argument has come up weekly before and since this one with the same discussion repeated over and over and over . . .

Start from post #1 and read it through.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f42/...tml#post739789