2016 Flying Cloud 26U

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by Plan-B

This is too common on new Airstreams or any trailer for that matter . It’s tylically not factory or battery’s fault. The dealers run them down too far and don’t recharge fully in the appropriate time. Thus the battery not holding a good charge or cellls going kaput.

Also AS does not put the best converter/charges in our trailers. There are far better options that will extend the life of your batteries considerably and the cost is minimal. There is a ton of threads on this topic for the makes and models to replace the stock converter. Highly recommend.

There is a thread going now, as a matter of fact, on the converter replacement from several of us. http://www.airforums.com/forums/f540...it-168615.html

The battery issue is not necessarily the "dealers" fault, from my experience and talking with the service guys and also AS warranty folks. I went thru a new set of Interstates in my 2014, couple months after I purchased. It had bad cells; Interstate replaced free. Then this summer, my friend purchased a new 2017 23D and had same issue on our first trip to Glacier...Interstate replaced no questions asked. Three months later, mine started acting up on our new 2017 28';took them to Interstate, they detected bad cells and replaced free. If Uncle Bob and others are correct, (I believe they are) the problem is with the converter/charge unit in all the older models perhaps, except 2018? The single stage converters seem to be overcharging the batteries...why AS has not done anything till this year is great question...Dealers just sell the darned things!

At any rate, I just ordered the Boondocker 1260 and plan to install it when it arrives shortly. Seems this model has pretty good reviews on this site and it's fairly inexpensive, compared to asking AS for help--they wanted about $900 to replace with a PD9200 model Progressive Dynamics; the Boondocker 1260 was only $169....we shall see how things go from here!

[knunut]

I believe the 26U has A 8355 Power center. The 8355 is a 30 Amp Shore with a Three Stage 55 Amp Converter Charger.

[Bobbo]

Originally Posted by knunut

I believe the 26U has A 8355 Power center. The 8355 is a 30 Amp Shore with a Three Stage 55 Amp Converter Charger.

It is not a 3 stage charger unless it has the TempAssure module installed. I called Airstream to ask if they included the TempAssure. They said they did not. I had the choice of buying the TempAssure and running it from the converter to the batteries, or just replacing the converter. I replaced the converter with a Progressive Dynamics 4655V for $200.

Without the TempAssure, the Parallax 8355 is a single stage battery killer.

This is a quote from the Parallax 8355 manual:

Originally Posted by Parallax

Also with the addition of the TempAssure™ module and sensor cable, the 8300 series
converter will automatically start out in a “boost” mode for the first 4 hours of operation
every time the 8300 series converter is powered “on”. The output voltage of a
TempAssure™ equipped 8300 series converter will still be temperature compensated,
even while in “boost” mode.

[Plan-B]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

There is a thread going now, as a matter of fact, on the converter replacement from several of us. http://www.airforums.com/forums/f540...it-168615.html

The battery issue is not necessarily the "dealers" fault, from my experience and talking with the service guys and also AS warranty folks. I went thru a new set of Interstates in my 2014, couple months after I purchased. It had bad cells; Interstate replaced free. Then this summer, my friend purchased a new 2017 23D and had same issue on our first trip to Glacier...Interstate replaced no questions asked. Three months later, mine started acting up on our new 2017 28';took them to Interstate, they detected bad cells and replaced free. If Uncle Bob and others are correct, (I believe they are) the problem is with the converter/charge unit in all the older models perhaps, except 2018? The single stage converters seem to be overcharging the batteries...why AS has not done anything till this year is great question...Dealers just sell the darned things!

At any rate, I just ordered the Boondocker 1260 and plan to install it when it arrives shortly. Seems this model has pretty good reviews on this site and it's fairly inexpensive, compared to asking AS for help--they wanted about $900 to replace with a PD9200 model Progressive Dynamics; the Boondocker 1260 was only $169....we shall see how things go from here!

Sounds like a great setup. Not going to argue about dealers ruining batteries. But any lead acid taken below 60% charge for more than 10 day’s, you have lessened the batteries life. It’s easy to do. I think I was too kind in my comment about AS inverter converter. Yes, they are battery killers and especially if you install after market ‘real’ deep cycles, like Life Lines.

I am lucky and Progressive Dynamics is only 45 mins from where I live and their Tech support is excellent . You can order the appropriate multi-stage inverter Charger for your 26u from them for under $200. It is also configurable for ‘true’ deep cycles. I had it installed by my AS dealer for under $200 in Labor. AS labor and aftermarket parts are insainly expensive. They charged , or tried too, $125 for a tire rotation. Thus the rediculious quote they have given you on the PD install.

[LilBigfoot]

Plan-B....I have a 2016 26U. Which multi stage charger did you order for your 26U? Any link? Thanks.

[Tarcoola]

Ditto. Would also like to swap out our converter/charger on our 2016 26U. Also, we have 2 x 50W factory solar panels installed. Does this complicate replacement?

[Bobbo]

Originally Posted by Tarcoola

Ditto. Would also like to swap out our converter/charger on our 2016 26U. Also, we have 2 x 50W factory solar panels installed. Does this complicate replacement?

No. Those are connected to the batteries, not the converter/charger.

[Bobbo]

Originally Posted by LilBigfoot

Plan-B....I have a 2016 26U. Which multi stage charger did you order for your 26U? Any link? Thanks.

I am not Plan-B, but the Progressive Dynamics 4655V that I linked above is a direct, drop-in replacement for a Parallax 8355. Your only real issue is whether to replace your 12v fuse board with the one that comes with the converter/charger, or to keep your factory fuse board, and buy the optional remote pendant. I chose to replace the 12v fuse board.

Note that I am not connected with Progressive Dynamics in any way. However, I have installed the PD4655V in the two RVs that I either have owned, or currently own.

[gypsydad]

Guess a good question might be is which of these replacement options is better or are they about the same?
Progressive Dynamics 4655V or the Boondocker 1260 Would be good to get some feedback from the experts here, if someone has experience. I will be getting the Boondocker next week, but still would like to get others input.

Also, "Paiceman", I noted your comments about the fan is on a lot of the time now with the new Boondocker; Are you saying I may want to build a platform to install for better circulation? Appreciate your input.

[Bobbo]

Call Randy at http://www.bestconverter.com/. He will not steer you wrong.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by Bobbo

Call Randy at http://www.bestconverter.com/. He will not steer you wrong.

Called Randy and asked about the Boondocker from the earlier thread...forgot to ask about the PD? Thought someone here may know. What has my attention is the earlier comment about the PD being plug & play compatible for installation with existing PD...that is why I was curious as to others input.

[Plan-B]

Originally Posted by Bobbo

It is not a 3 stage charger unless it has the TempAssure module installed. I called Airstream to ask if they included the TempAssure. They said they did not. I had the choice of buying the TempAssure and running it from the converter to the batteries, or just replacing the converter. I replaced the converter with a Progressive Dynamics 4655V for $200.

Without the TempAssure, the Parallax 8355 is a single stage battery killer.

This is a quote from the Parallax 8355 manual:

Bobo is right on the mark about a temp sensor for the batteries. The charge process is a chemical reaction. Like all chemical reactions temperature is a big variable on that process. For instance: if you are charging your batteries when it is hot, your batteries will not be fully charged, thus reducing the overall charge capability of your battery. If it is cold outside, you will overcharge your batteries, killing them by over charging them. The charger knowing the temperature of the batteries adjust properly the charge process to maximize the life of your batteries.

Here is a real life example: I am not an electrical engineer or an electrician. But as a professional I was responsible for large data centers. The backup systems for these systems, UPSs, are nothing more than 6V lead/acid 'true' deep cycle AGM (Glass Mat) batteries. Yes, our charging systems were outrageously expensive but the process of 'TRUE" multi-state charging and managing the temperature variable...our batteries had an effective 10 year life span. The same process and expectations for an Airstream battery is no different. If properly used: don't go below 60% discharge, charge asap to 100%, a 'real' multi stage charger, manage the temps...you can have batteries that will last far beyond your expecations. Don't do the above, it does not matter how expensive batteries you purchase, they will die or loose their potential as fast as a less expensive battery. Disclaimer: this is a lead acid battery discussion and not to be confused with using lithium technologies.

[Plan-B]

Originally Posted by Tarcoola

Ditto. Would also like to swap out our converter/charger on our 2016 26U. Also, we have 2 x 50W factory solar panels installed. Does this complicate replacement?

If purchasing your 'portable' solar power kit, they typically connect directly to your batteries. Thus no complications with converter/charger. There are sone good portable solar companies targeting RVers. When I say good, given solar power panels are not typically the big variable, it is their solar power control module. Kind of like the trailer's charger. As with TRUE multistage chargers should be used with your AS, as should the solar panel's charger. There is some good ones and a couple of great ones out there. Warning, buying your solar panels from Wall Mart or discount places for a couple hundred dollars, it is not the panels you should be concerned about. It is the single or two stage charger controller that comes with them. They need to be tossed and buy an after market controller, 3-4 stage unit.

As a note, AS solar systems, especially the solar power control module, is not worthy of your AS. And outrageously expensive for what you get. Far greater aftermarket systems (panels, charge controllers, battery management (critical), batteries...AS should be ashamed of themselves. There is a ton of threads out their on this topic with data and fact. Had one on my 25'. It was useless. Replaced it with a 200 amp Samlex system with Interstate AGMs. Loved it. For my 26U I had 'AM SOLAR' design a 400W solar system with a solar power control system that also integrates with the AS's Inverter/Charger. The battery system they put together is two (2) 300amp 6V AGM 'true' deep cycle batteries. The battery compartment had to be modified, but easy fabrication. I do a lot of boon docking. Last two years out West, I was in heaven:-) Kind of a rule of thumb I learned having a 100w, 200w and now 400w systems. 100w is really nothing more than a battery maintainer, think of it as a trickle charger for batteries that are already fully charged. 200w, now you are talking! Enough power to bring your batteries up, using standard lead acid size batteries your AS comes with under normal weather conditions. 400w wow wow!!! But can be overkill for most people. If you are doing a lot of boon docking, don't always have a lot of sun and and getting into larger capacity batteries, then 400w will blow your socks off. AGAIN, total overkill for most siltations.

[Plan-B]

Originally Posted by knunut

I believe the 26U has A 8355 Power center. The 8355 is a 30 Amp Shore with a Three Stage 55 Amp Converter Charger.

As of May/June 2016 the 26U was using the Parallax 8355, as you noted. I do not know if they have changed as of lately.

[Plan-B]

Originally Posted by LilBigfoot

Plan-B....I have a 2016 26U. Which multi stage charger did you order for your 26U? Any link? Thanks.

Like BoBo I replaced, or had dealer replace, the standard 26U Parallax 8355 with a superior Progressive Dynamics PD4655. But I did not change out the fuse panel as he did. The Parallax went into the trash can. I thought it appropriate to throw the Parallax into the trash since Parallax had been the root of trashing so many of my batteries over the years. Live and learn:-)

[Plan-B]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

Guess a good question might be is which of these replacement options is better or are they about the same?
Progressive Dynamics 4655V or the Boondocker 1260 Would be good to get some feedback from the experts here, if someone has experience. I will be getting the Boondocker next week, but still would like to get others input.

Also, "Paiceman", I noted your comments about the fan is on a lot of the time now with the new Boondocker; Are you saying I may want to build a platform to install for better circulation? Appreciate your input.

Comparing the need or option of the PD4655 or a Boondocker 1260 is comparing apples to oranges. I am not trying to be snotty so please do not take it that way:-) Both these units are designed to charge your batteries, a no brainer. But one is for charging your batteries when primarly hooked to shore power and the other is for off grid (note: it is not an issue for both to be connected at the same time).

Even if you decide on the Boondocker (which had great reviews by users and experts) you still have to contend with the inferior Parallax charger. Personally the priority is getting a replacement for your Parallax no matter what Solar solution you are considering.

[Plan-B]

Originally Posted by Plan-B

Bobo is right on the mark about a temp sensor for the batteries. The charge process is a chemical reaction. Like all chemical reactions temperature is a big variable on that process. For instance: if you are charging your batteries when it is hot, your batteries will not be fully charged, thus reducing the overall charge capability of your battery. If it is cold outside, you will overcharge your batteries, killing them by over charging them. The charger knowing the temperature of the batteries adjust properly the charge process to maximize the life of your batteries.

Here is a real life example: I am not an electrical engineer or an electrician. But as a professional I was responsible for large data centers. The backup systems for these systems, UPSs, are nothing more than 6V lead/acid 'true' deep cycle AGM (Glass Mat) batteries. Yes, our charging systems were outrageously expensive but the process of 'TRUE" multi-state charging and managing the temperature variable...our batteries had an effective 10 year life span. The same process and expectations for an Airstream battery is no different. If properly used: don't go below 60% discharge, charge asap to 100%, a 'real' multi stage charger, manage the temps...you can have batteries that will last far beyond your expecations. Don't do the above, it does not matter how expensive batteries you purchase, they will die or loose their potential as fast as a less expensive battery. Disclaimer: this is a lead acid battery discussion and not to be confused with using lithium technologies.

I need to correct one of the points I made. I said you should not draw down your battery below 60% (lead/acid). That is incorrect, sorry. You should try not to go below 40%=11.9 volts. So green is 100%-40% = 12.6plus - 11.9 volts. The caution/yellow zone is 30-20%, 11.75-11.58 volts. Red zone (don't go there) 10-0%, 11.31-10.5 volts. Remember that no matter the zone you have drawn your batteries down to you MUST fully recharge to 100% in short order or your battery will become sulfated permantently and its true new full capacity significantly reduced. Thus the need for a GOOD and TRUE multistage charger (preferably temperature compensated), shore power or solar.

An IMPORTANT note, and sorry to have some of you gasp of not another issue AS does to make us think we are covered by their lack luster concern or knowlege for electronics, but that cool little volt gauge they install in the trailer. The one you/we/me are suppose to think that this is an accurate indication of the state of our batteries. Is so far inaccurate it is ridiculous. Its is not the gauges fault, it is how it is being used electronically that is a joke. A ton of threads on this topic and how to and what to install to get a TRUE STATE of your batteries. If you are always hooked to or mostly shore power, this is moot. If you intend to be off grid and use your batteries a lot, it is critical to know the state of charge so as to not go below the thresholds I mentioned above. Doing so causes un-reversable damage very quickly.

[Plan-B]

I apologize but I am getting very close to being far off thread. But, on our 26U threads we have done a great job sharing thoughts, ideas and experiences for our beloved 26Us. But, too, deep diving too much in power systems, other than experiences, there is an amazing plethora of amazing forum members that are absolutely amazing experts in theory, engineering, installation and real life use of power systems (charge and inverter), shore and solar. There are also some very legitimate power distribution and solar companies that support the RV industry that make great products but as important are very helpful and willing to help advise and support you, even if you don’t buy their products. But, there is far more junk out there than there is good, products and advice. Thus, rely on some of the great threads and true experts out there for advice and recommendations specific to your needs.

Trouble is, too, there is so many threads on this topic it is easy to get confused of who, what and when. May I suggest in researching threads for inverters, chargers, batteries, shore power, solar of any kind or anything electronic concerning an Airstream…you include the Airforum username, ‘IDROBA’. IDROBA is a username for Idaho Rob Allen. Rob was a retired professor of architectural power systems engineer/scientist for Western Washington University. His threads and contributions to the Airforum are legendary with regards to anything power. And anything Airstream too, having restored over 20 Airstreams in his life time. But his passion and expertise in solar is legendary, not only for RVs in general, his always FREE engineering and advice to the RV industry, off grid home builders and especially the US Forest Service. He always maintained free full hookups for any airstream owner at his summer cabin on the Idaho wilderness river, The Selway. An amazing person so many of us will miss and his legend lives on. Unfortunately, he passed a year and a half ago in his chair overlooking his favorite place in the world, the Selway River next to an Airstream.

I thought I would share a couple of links from manufactures. I am not selling or trying to get you to buy their products. There are many great companies out there. But they also published some good starter information to answer basic questions and help for a better base knowledge to work from.

This is a link to Progressive Dynamics FAQs. It is pretty much agnostic but very factual. Just a note: just because company X Brand Manufactures say their inverter/converter is multi-staged does not necessarily mean a lot. Not all multi stage Inverters/Converters do the same thing. And some have more stages than others and some may be multi staged but use the WRONG voltages for their stages for batteries that are AGM Deep Cycle. Some de-sulfate and de-sulfate at damaging voltages depending on your kind of lead acid battery. PD, does them all correctly. Note: same considerations need to be taken into account with any solar installation too.

https://www.progressivedyn.com/servi...rcharger-faqs/


Here is a one page simple explanation of de-sulfating or equalizing lead acid batteries from the premier lead acid battery manufacture. Not trying to sell them or recommend them, other than AGMs and 6V battery installations in your AS should be high on your list the next time you need batteries. The reason for great chargers, shore or solar, is every good battery manufacture will give you the specific parameters each of the multi stage charger voltage should be, then you can adjust those charge units to exactly, or very close, to the batteries specifications. These batteries are not cheap. Take care of them, they will last 10 years. But there are other great options besides LifeLine. Note: I said 6V batteries. Two 6V deep cycle batteries in series, at the same Amp Hour rating , go further than same Amp Hour 12V batteries in parallel. I don’t golf, but if you do, look under the hood of a golf cart. They are typically always 6V:-) , as is all top of the line Class-A and 5th wheels. Why AS uses 12v, don’t know:-( Almost all 6V are TRUE deep cycles. If a 12v says Deep Cycle than also gives you the cold cranking amps, it is NOT a TRUE deep cycle, no matter what they say on the battery. But, there are TRUE 12v deep cycles, just not at your typical place you buy batteries.

http://lifelinebatteries.com/2015/10...agm-batteries/


If you are not considering Solar then you can skip this link. My last link is for AMSOLAR. Yes, this is a plug for maybe the best company I have ever had to do business with personally or professionally. Airfourms users that have used them will attest to this too. It took me three different configurations to nail the design and capability of solar to meet my specific needs. The first was based on depending on AS, a mistake. The second was doing a lot of research and depending pretty much on my self confidence, got close but missed the whole battery management aspect. The third time was a charm. I listened to and talked to experts on the Airforum. Long story short, I used AMSOLAR as my one stop fully planned out and integrated approach. They worked with my Airstream dealer to install. AMSOLAR instructions to install their systems any handy person can follow. But given there is always a chance of crossing a wire where it shouldn’t etc. the consequences were far to great for my taste. Solar can be broken into three design elements, I am simplifying: Panels (the easy part, sort of), batteries (not to0 complicated unless Lithium), and power management (most complicated and critical). Yes, you can swag all this integration of components based on what you think your needs are but there is lot you/we don’t know based on what you think you might need. AMSOLAR takes all that guessing away. You can spend $300 to a half million with them. The care in understanding your needs, a design to your needs, impeccable install instructions and pre and post sales support that is out of this world. AMSOLAR does not make a lot of things. They are engineers, integrators, fabricators for your needs and for your specific coach needs. They do build the most amazing connectors, solar panel connectors/brackets etc on the market though. They have a philosophy: there is NEVER a need to drill holes through the roof of any coach, especially and Airstream. So all those mounting brackets covering my AS roof, cable runs everywhere and even the entry into the AS…not one hole drilled into the Airstream to leak down the road. And their mounting system is not going to fall off going down the road, either. Also, every cable and quick release system is custom cut/fit to your AS specific model, no slack flapping around and totally water proof and UV resistant. I actually chose to use a specific high end solar panel model from Renogy they did not carry. They purchased the Renogy panels for me. They took them apart and replaced all the connecting cabling with their UV and waterproof quick release harnesses and tested them at no extra cost to me. Anyway, I digress:-) Great company ! And don’t be surprised if you give them a call and after giving them why you think you need solar..they may say, ‘you really don’t need solar’.

http://amsolar.com

Sorry for the insanely long post!

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by Plan-B

Comparing the need or option of the PD4655 or a Boondocker 1260 is comparing apples to oranges. I am not trying to be snotty so please do not take it that way:-) Both these units are designed to charge your batteries, a no brainer. But one is for charging your batteries when primarly hooked to shore power and the other is for off grid (note: it is not an issue for both to be connected at the same time).

Even if you decide on the Boondocker (which had great reviews by users and experts) you still have to contend with the inferior Parallax charger. Personally the priority is getting a replacement for your Parallax no matter what Solar solution you are considering.

Well, now you have me confused in your opening comment comparing "apples to oranges?". What am I missing? PD 4655 is a multistage converter/charger like the Boondocker; they both work with shore power or generator...what are you saying here that is different? I was asking which is better or are they pretty much the same? Are you saying there is "still a Parallax charger" being used also in the system and that is the problem??

[Plan-B]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

Well, now you have me confused in your opening comment comparing "apples to oranges?". What am I missing? PD 4655 is a multistage converter/charger like the Boondocker; they both work with shore power or generator...what are you saying here that is different? I was asking which is better or are they pretty much the same? Are you saying there is "still a Parallax charger" being used also in the system and that is the problem??

I was referring to a 'portable' solar panel system known as the 'Boondocker' for charging your batteries. It has its own built in charge controller and connects directly to your batteries . Thus my confusion with relationship to the PD4655. We must be talking about two different products. My confusion, sorry about that.